UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Why would club membership be less attractive for Finland, Belgium, Romania, Bulgaria, in fact for any other member state if the UK had an orderly exit and a strong ongoing partnership with the EU? Why does that make the EU less attractive for other members?

The question was to break EU's principles for one exiting member. It's simply not going to happen. How UK manages to do afterwards, that's up to her. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Why would club membership be less attractive for Finland, Belgium, Romania, Bulgaria, in fact for any other member state if the UK had an orderly exit and a strong ongoing partnership with the EU? Why does that make the EU less attractive for other members?

Why would anyone want to be a member when they could get the same benefits, customized, without the obligations, as a non-member? 

[CG1 Blue]

33 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Why would anyone want to be a member when they could get the same benefits, customized, without the obligations, as a non-member? 

So you believe the EU would be obliged to strike the same deal with Bulgaria if the Bulgarian people voted to leave the EU?

[CG1 Blue]

43 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The question was to break EU's principles for one exiting member. It's simply not going to happen. How UK manages to do afterwards, that's up to her. 

The same way the EU bent their principles to allow Greece to join (and then subsequently crushed Greece)? There are many examples of the EU bending the rules when it suits them.

 

Admittedly a deal like Chequers would be on a different scale, and I agree it's unlikely they'll go that far for the UK.

[welovesundaysatspace]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So you believe the EU would be obliged to strike the same deal with Bulgaria if the Bulgarian people voted to leave the EU?

The EU isn’t obliged to strike a deal with anyone. Not after someone leaves, and not with any other third country.  

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

There are many examples of the EU bending the rules when it suits them.

It’s not true that the EU is “bending rules”, and if it was, here it wouldn’t even suit the EU. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The same way the EU bent their principles to allow Greece to join (and then subsequently crushed Greece)? There are many examples of the EU bending the rules when it suits them.

 

Admittedly a deal like Chequers would be on a different scale, and I agree it's unlikely they'll go that far for the UK.

That wasn't great, but the biggest difference is Greece joined, UK is leaving. 

[damascase]

29 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

There are many examples of the EU bending the rules when it suits them.

On the topic of bending the rules: in EU-circles one often hears that Britannia might rule the waves, but that they also waive the rules.........

[damascase]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Is your comment supposed to be pro-Remain? EU member states cannot have bilateral trade agreements with ANY countries!

EU members are - knowingly and willingly - part of a Customs Union, within which there is free circulation of goods. There is no such Union between USA and Canada. To enable a Customs Union to function, all members must levy the same import duties and once duties have been paid in one member state, they can be transfered freely within the Union. So that does not leave room for individual agreements. 

The Customs Union is, by the way, not an EU invention, but its characteristics and the requirements are well-defined by the WTO.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The EU isn’t obliged to strike a deal with anyone. Not after someone leaves, and not with any other third country.  

On that we agree - they are not obliged. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't / won't

 

[baboon]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Why would anyone want to be a member when they could get the same benefits, customized, without the obligations, as a non-member? 

This is an honest question from a (reluctant) remainer: What is so good about this club right now? Why couldn't other countries decide to depart but set up their own framework with a coordinating body more to their liking?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, baboon said:

This is an honest question from a (reluctant) remainer: What is so good about this club right now? Why couldn't other countries decide to depart but set up their own framework with a coordinating body more to their liking?

Freedom to live. EU does a lot of stuff to make our lives easier and safer. 

 

Yeah, there have been also mistakes, which are natural part of the developing process. Some of these mistakes, let's say the curvature of cucumbers, are taken to the front pages in certain countries. 

 

After all, the idea was not to waste packaging space during transportation and / or not to let some sellers to sell air to the consumers. 

 

Most of the good stuff EU does, never got noticed by press. 

 

That's why other countries doesn't want to exit the union. 

[baboon]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Freedom to live. EU does a lot of stuff to make our lives easier and safer. 

 

Yeah, there have been also mistakes, which are natural part of the developing process. Some of these mistakes, let's say the curvature of cucumbers, are taken to the front pages in certain countries. 

 

After all, the idea was not to waste packaging space during transportation and / or not to let some sellers to sell air to the consumers. 

 

Most of the good stuff EU does, never got noticed by press. 

 

That's why other countries doesn't want to exit the union. 

Not to waste packaging? Hardly a ringing endorsement.

But as I say, I want to reluctantly remain. I think more members need to kick up a stink when they feel their interests are not recognised. However I can't be doing with the gits still fighting WWII on their (grand) parents' behalf...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, baboon said:

Not to waste packaging? Hardly a ringing endorsement.

But as I say, I want to reluctantly remain. I think more members need to kick up a stink when they feel their interests are not recognised. However I can't be doing with the gits still fighting WWII on their (grand) parents' behalf...

Optimisation affects deep in my engineering soul ????

Packaging and delivery costs money.

 

When the items are sold by the volume or container, these things can make a significant difference. Naturally it's easy to make fun of it at the shop. 

 

Or

 

[adammike]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The same way the EU bent their principles to allow Greece to join (and then subsequently crushed Greece)? There are many examples of the EU bending the rules when it suits them.

 

Admittedly a deal like Chequers would be on a different scale, and I agree it's unlikely they'll go that far for the UK.

Greece cheated ,they presented false balance sheets and financial data,the EU was duped but they did not bend the rules.Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't any deal have to be ratified by all the remaining 27 members?  Germany and France will never agree to a favourable deal for the UK.

[aright]

8 minutes ago, adammike said:

Greece cheated ,they presented false balance sheets and financial data,the EU was duped but they did not bend the rules.Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't any deal have to be ratified by all the remaining 27 members?  Germany and France will never agree to a favourable deal for the UK.

No?  I think the deal is closer than you think.

Boris Johnson welcomes Donald Tusk 'Canada +++' Brexit trade deal offer as 'superb way forward'

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the European Research Group of Tory MPs, said: “This is excellent news. It means that the challenge for the Government is solely solving the Irish border question – which is a political issue.

David Davis, the former Brexit secretary who quit over Chequers deal, said: “This shows clearly that No 10's claim that 'There is no alternative to Chequers' is just wrong.   

“We could easily switch strategies to Canada +++ and deliver an outcome that is good for the UK, acceptable to Parliament, and negotiable with Brussels."

 

Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage urged Mrs May to “bite his hand off” and start talks now on a Canada-plus deal.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/04/donald-tusk-offers-britain-canada-brexit-trade-deal-demands/

 

 

[kwilco]

It started with false Utopian promises and now has descended into arguments about how severe economic contractions will be and fears of shortages and civil unrest....... as ever Brexiteers seem to have their Brexit goggles on that protect them from reality.

[adammike]

3 hours ago, aright said:

No?  I think the deal is closer than you think.

Boris Johnson welcomes Donald Tusk 'Canada +++' Brexit trade deal offer as 'superb way forward'

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the European Research Group of Tory MPs, said: “This is excellent news. It means that the challenge for the Government is solely solving the Irish border question – which is a political issue.

David Davis, the former Brexit secretary who quit over Chequers deal, said: “This shows clearly that No 10's claim that 'There is no alternative to Chequers' is just wrong.   

“We could easily switch strategies to Canada +++ and deliver an outcome that is good for the UK, acceptable to Parliament, and negotiable with Brussels."

 

Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage urged Mrs May to “bite his hand off” and start talks now on a Canada-plus deal.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/04/donald-tusk-offers-britain-canada-brexit-trade-deal-demands/

 

 

Do all the 27 members have to agree to a deal?

[aright]

10 minutes ago, adammike said:

Do all the 27 members have to agree to a deal?

If that's acceptable to the Grand Master ( Germany) they will do as they are told.  I'm sure Tusk wouldn't have proposed the deal if he didn't think he could get it through.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

Do all the 27 members have to agree to a deal?

Yes - Spain could block it if we don't make concessions on Gibraltar for instance.  

[tebee]

4 hours ago, aright said:

No?  I think the deal is closer than you think.

Boris Johnson welcomes Donald Tusk 'Canada +++' Brexit trade deal offer as 'superb way forward'

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the European Research Group of Tory MPs, said: “This is excellent news. It means that the challenge for the Government is solely solving the Irish border question – which is a political issue.

David Davis, the former Brexit secretary who quit over Chequers deal, said: “This shows clearly that No 10's claim that 'There is no alternative to Chequers' is just wrong.   

“We could easily switch strategies to Canada +++ and deliver an outcome that is good for the UK, acceptable to Parliament, and negotiable with Brussels."

 

Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage urged Mrs May to “bite his hand off” and start talks now on a Canada-plus deal.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/04/donald-tusk-offers-britain-canada-brexit-trade-deal-demands/

 

 

 

 

This deal has been on offer for over a year - it's just the UK rejected it as it didn't give enough access to the single market and would damage British industry .

 

This is a slide from Tusks presentation to the first negotiating session 

 

 

[tebee]

14 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Unsurprisingly, you have missed my point.

 

 

If I join a golf club, I join according to their predetermined set of rules; if I leave that golf club I exit in accordance with their predetermined rules.

 

The EU is just a large golf club.

Even in your analogy that makes absolutely no sense. There are a million reasons why you might decide to leave a golf club, one fixed post leaving solution would not work for all of them.

 

You might have moved out of the area.

Just want to play less golf

Died

Gone bankrupt and unable to pay the fees

Had an affair with a golf girl and been order to leave by the wife 

Fallen out with the committee at the club

Got drunk, wrecked the club house and been banned

 

How would one preordained solution  work for these and all the other possibilities? 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, aright said:

If that's acceptable to the Grand Master ( Germany) they will do as they are told.  I'm sure Tusk wouldn't have proposed the deal if he didn't think he could get it through.

Ah! Teutophobia, yet another Brexiteers characteristic that replaces critical thinking.

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, adammike said:

Greece cheated ,they presented false balance sheets and financial data,the EU was duped but they did not bend the rules.Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't any deal have to be ratified by all the remaining 27 members?  Germany and France will never agree to a favourable deal for the UK.

They both cheated. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Ah! Teutophobia, yet another Brexiteers characteristic that replaces critical thinking.

Ah, the master of critical thinking rides again.

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

It started with false Utopian promises and now has descended into arguments about how severe economic contractions will be and fears of shortages and civil unrest....... as ever Brexiteers seem to have their Brexit goggles on that protect them from reality.

It started with the deception of the promises of people like Heath. This is the reality that remainers ignore completely.

[My Thai Life]

@aright beat me to it, again from yesterday's Telegraph.

 

“After meeting with Leo Varadkar, the Irish Prime Minister in Brussels, Mr Tusk said: “From the very beginning, the EU offer has been a Canada+++ deal - much further-reaching on trade, internal security and foreign policy cooperation. This is a true measure of respect. And this offer remains in place.””

[My Thai Life]

Talking of Spain, the Spanish Foreign Minister had something very pertinent to say about Brexit & CETA two years ago.

 

“Speaking at a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg on Monday, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said: “Forget the Norwegian model, forget the Swiss model because of the condition for the freedom of movement of people, and forget a Turkish-style customs union. If the British insist on having the option to restrain the free movement of European workers to the United Kingdom, the only solution is the Canadian one.” “

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-deal-closely-resemble-ceta-trade-deal-canada-says-spanish-foreign-minster-a7366396.html

[tebee]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Talking of Spain, the Spanish Foreign Minister had something very pertinent to say about Brexit & CETA two years ago.

 

“Speaking at a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg on Monday, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said: “Forget the Norwegian model, forget the Swiss model because of the condition for the freedom of movement of people, and forget a Turkish-style customs union. If the British insist on having the option to restrain the free movement of European workers to the United Kingdom, the only solution is the Canadian one.” “

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-deal-closely-resemble-ceta-trade-deal-canada-says-spanish-foreign-minster-a7366396.html

That's exactly what the EU said 18 months ago when negotiations started. Uk government is still angling for cake and eat it solutions.

 

Problem is that doesn't solve NI border we still need a solution to that.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

For one complaining about condescension, you are not so averse to it yourself. That said, it is a tired old trope within the TV threads for certain Brexiteers to hark on about the war as if Britain won it single handedly. 

 

'British exceptionalism' is what I inferred from this comment:

 

While Britain as geographic entity has indeed existed for quite some time, the Act of Union is barely 300 years old so we have not been collectively exceeding for a millennia. 

 

Can you point to an example of how I have disregarded anything to do with British history, let alone flippantly? That I don't have a bulldog tattooed on my arm or a misty eyed, undeserved sense of Britain being superior is not a dismissal of what our forefathers accomplished; it is just that I recognise that the world was in transition and we were merely part of it.

 

But it in no way makes us special, unless you believe that every other nation on earth was a font of peace and calmness until recently. 

 

You couldn't be more wrong, but I have lived and worked in enough countries around the world to recognise that the UK is not unique and not exceptional. Like the other countries I have been fortunate enough to experience, it has its positives and negatives, its times of heroics and its times of shame, but my and your worth is not enhanced in any way whatsoever by the accident of the country of our birth.

 

The real shame is that so many fell for the jingoism of Farage and the like, and are intent on driving the UK off a cliff, with the only comforting sop to offer being the myth of the indomitable bulldog spirit. 

 

If my comments have appeared condescending it wasn't my intention. I'm simply replying to spiteful, vitriolic and overtly condescending remarks made about the UK by people who see Brexit as some kind of betrayal, even at a personal level, which I find hilarious. I won't lower myself to becoming equally vitriolic in my replies, as it is totally unnecessary, even if I am offended by the lack of respect for the British people shown by certain uninformed people on TVF, this is at the end of the day just a debate, it should remain as friendly as possible, even when it becomes infected with cynicism and idiocy.

 

So to retort:

 

If you inferred 'British exceptionalism' from my comments, well, that's your inference. I don't believe that Brits are superior to anyone else, that would be nationalist, and though I am a patriot and strongly believe in patriotism and civic pride, there is a very significant difference between these concepts and nationalism. I think what you're doing here, like so many tend to, is projecting your own emotional hang ups and prejudices on to me, someone you've never met or know anything about. 

 

'That I don't have a bulldog tattooed on my arm or a misty eyed, undeserved sense of Britain being superior is not a dismissal of what our forefathers accomplished'

 

As if to prove my previous point - this is all hyperbole of your own fashioning, haha! I don't have any tattoos and never have, I don't feel an undeserved sense of Britain being superior and last time I checked my eyes weren't misty. Why you feel the need to compare me to a caricature based on your own dislikes and prejudices for simply giving a factual appraisal of the modern world says more about you than it does me. I brought up WWII because it made indelible impressions on the world, particularly Europe, you could say it was the driving force behind the creation of the EU in the first place. Britain's role in both wars was vital, for Europe particularly. Something that seems to be too often forgotten or derided. That doesn't sit well with me.

 

'The UK has existed in its current form for less than a century; whatever happened over the past millenia has nothing to do with Britishness, whatever that may be.'

'Can you point to an example of how I have disregarded anything to do with British history'

What I said was you disregarded England's, Scotland's, Wales's and Ireland's separate and combined histories, saying that the actions of the past millennium had 'nothing to do with Britishness' aka our culture - as quoted above... I can't recall a more fatuous comment being made on here, and that's saying something! The constituent country's histories are, for one thing, inexorably linked and overlapped for well over a millennium in fact, so however you care to define our rich culture(s), what other context you can frame it/them in besides our combined and unilateral histories? Utterly ridiculous to try to argue otherwise.

 

'But it in no way makes us special, unless you believe that every other nation on earth was a font of peace and calmness until recently'

So are you really saying that the history of the UK vis-a-vis liberty, law, innovation and the pioneering of constitutional/personal freedoms was identical to other nations in the previous few centuries? If you are, then you are in dire need of a history lesson. Maybe that's something you should devote some time to?

 

'but my and your worth is not enhanced in any way whatsoever by the accident of the country of our birth.'

Again, I never once said it was. Nationality is an accident of birth, of course.

All I was doing was merely celebrating and drawing attention to the deeds of our ancestors and their crucial, emancipating effect on our European neighbours. This silly comment is once again just a projection of your own misgivings, as you're assigning sentiments to me that I haven't vocalised once. This is becoming a nasty habit.

 

'The real shame is that so many fell for the jingoism of Farage and the like, and are intent on driving the UK off a cliff, with the only comforting sop to offer being the myth of the indomitable bulldog spirit.'

All 100% conjecture, solely your opinion, no fact or reality in any of it. Firstly it's waaaaaay too early to make any judgement about the UK being driven anywhere, let alone of a cliff. We haven't even Brexited yet for christ's sake! And secondly, the 'Bull Dog spirit' may be a myth to you, but it doesn't mean that the heroic deeds of braver men and women should be denigrated by someone such as yourself, or me or anyone else for that matter.

 

It was coined for good reason. Reasons you know nothing about and probably never will. Both you and I should count ourselves lucky that we haven't had to.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker