UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

Slowly but surely even the Quitlings are beginning to realise what a sham and a shambles Brexit is...... promises they made then look so

12 minutes ago, aright said:

Same old pedantic, 

ridiculous now.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/i-cant-promise-life-will-be-rosy-after-brexit-says-fox-b22w97jt7

 

 

 

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, aright said:

Same old pedantic, we are outside the box, shuffle. 

Should you need reminding no damage has been inflicted on the UK; Brexit hasn't happened yet.

No damage?????

Brexit is already taking its toll...businesses are leaving or reducing their presence, investment is down, the pound is down and those interested in The UKs future....aren't any more. Prestige countries are sliding out to keep a presence in the EU...The UK market is of no significance to them .....

"In its first quarterly economic outlook report, KPMG forecasts that GDP will grow by 1.4 per cent next year in the event of a good deal, but by only 0.6 per cent in a no-deal scenario.

It says that with GDP growth expected to be 1.3 per cent this year, even a friction-free Brexit would lead to the lowest rate of growth for a decade." - the Times.

[kwilco]

Pedantic - Brexitism for I don't understand

[SheungWan]

On 9/9/2018 at 6:21 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

It will be interesting to see the Labour Party response at the Party Conference later this month.

Really? Why not reference the Labour Party Conference of last year 2017 when discussion of Brexit was suppressed.

[aright]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Really? Why not reference the Labour Party Conference of last year 2017 when discussion of Brexit was suppressed.

Corbyn's views themselves are suppressed. He never announces policy its always through a spokesperson and never appears on Newsnight because it is not possible to  script answers to unknown questions.

His useful purpose will be to win the next General Election for the Conservatives.

 

[tebee]

Brexit is a version of Jack and the Beanstalk in which Union Jack trades his family’s economic well-being for “magic” beans that turn out to be just beans after all.

 

He then spends his days screaming at his mother for not believing hard enough.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Really? Why not reference the Labour Party Conference of last year 2017 when discussion of Brexit was suppressed.

We really NEED more political parties a la Sweden. I couldn't possible vote CON or LAB and our ridiculous FPTP system means voting for other parties is not effective

[aright]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit is a version of Jack and the Beanstalk in which Union Jack trades his family’s economic well-being for “magic” beans that turn out to be just beans after all.

 

He then spends his days screaming at his mother for not believing hard enough.

Welcome back! Unfortunately your break hasn't cleared your mind.

A better analogy is Dick Whittington.

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We really NEED more political parties a la Sweden. I couldn't possible vote CON or LAB and our ridiculous FPTP system means voting for other parties is not effective

Ditto - though I actually vote in a constituency that returns a lib dem MP - I'd probably prefer pirate, being an anarchist at heart....

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Welcome back! Unfortunately your break hasn't cleared your mind.

A better analogy is Dick Whittington.

Oh i've been lurking, just haven't found anything worth commenting on...

 

Dick Whittington analogy? The streets of Brexit were supposed to be paved with gold, but were cold and inhospitable when we got there?

We live for several years in abject poverty, leave but hear the sound of Bow Bells and turn back, make our fortune by selling our pregnant cat  - Borris maybe - to a circus in need of a new clown act. Marry the bosses daughter - we join the Euro and take over running it from Germany - and become prosperous and a part of mainstream society again. 

[melvinmelvin]

39 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We really NEED more political parties a la Sweden. I couldn't possible vote CON or LAB and our ridiculous FPTP system means voting for other parties is not effective

 

step 1

you need to perform a major overhaul of your electoral system, major

 

step 2

parties will come

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Brexit is a version of Jack and the Beanstalk in which Union Jack trades his family’s economic well-being for “magic” beans that turn out to be just beans after all.

 

He then spends his days screaming at his mother for not believing hard enough.

Well that certainly sounds like a fairytale.

[dick dasterdly]

36 minutes ago, tebee said:

Ditto - though I actually vote in a constituency that returns a lib dem MP - I'd probably prefer pirate, being an anarchist at heart....

Know what you mean.  The Official Monster Raving Loony party was great as it provided the possibility of an obvious 'protest vote' against the mainstream parties.

 

Proportional representation is (in theory) far better than FPTP, but as another poster pointed out - doesn't really work very well either.

 

Perhaps the answer is to have an option for 'none of the above' on GE ballot papers?

 

The numbers voting for this option might possibly force politicians to not only realise that a large swathe of the electorate have no time for them at all - but might also force them into addressing the REASONS why so many voted that way?

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, tebee said:

Oh i've been lurking, just haven't found anything worth commenting on...

 

Dick Whittington analogy? The streets of Brexit were supposed to be paved with gold, but were cold and inhospitable when we got there?

We live for several years in abject poverty, leave but hear the sound of Bow Bells and turn back, make our fortune by selling our pregnant cat  - Borris maybe - to a circus in need of a new clown act. Marry the bosses daughter - we join the Euro and take over running it from Germany - and become prosperous and a part of mainstream society again. 

I suppose Boris could be the sacrificial cat.......as long as Moggy is there with nine lives intact! ? 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Oh i've been lurking, just haven't found anything worth commenting on...

 

Dick Whittington analogy? The streets of Brexit were supposed to be paved with gold, but were cold and inhospitable when we got there?

We live for several years in abject poverty, leave but hear the sound of Bow Bells and turn back, make our fortune by selling our pregnant cat  - Borris maybe - to a circus in need of a new clown act. Marry the bosses daughter - we join the Euro and take over running it from Germany - and become prosperous and a part of mainstream society again. 

Well, I suppose both are fairy tales...

[JAG]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Know what you mean.  The Official Monster Raving Loony party was great as it provided the possibility of an obvious 'protest vote' against the mainstream parties.

 

Proportional representation is (in theory) far better than FPTP, but as another poster pointed out - doesn't really work very well either.

Does anyone remember the marvellous interview on The Today Programme some years ago when a MRLP candidate actually got a seat on a county council (Cornwall I think - may be wrong). Neither interviewer nor interviewee had a clue what to do or say!

 

As for proportional representation, wasn't there a referendum...

[Srikcir]

35 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Proportional representation is (in theory) far better than FPTP, but as another poster pointed out - doesn't really work very well either.

Although the UK Parliament does not use MMP, Scotland and Wales use MMP in their devolved parliaments.

Worldwise, so does New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Germany, and Bolivia among other nations.

In a non-binding plebiscite between 27 October and 7 November 2016, Prince Edward Islanders voted for MMP over FPTP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation#Thailand

MMP seems to be desirable and/or working for some nations.

[tebee]

36 minutes ago, JAG said:

As for proportional representation, wasn't there a referendum...

 

Yes, but we can always have a new referendum....

 

 

We are the only country in Europe that retains FPTP - does that not say something ?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

35 minutes ago, JAG said:

Does anyone remember the marvellous interview on The Today Programme some years ago when a MRLP candidate actually got a seat on a county council (Cornwall I think - may be wrong). Neither interviewer nor interviewee had a clue what to do or say!

 

As for proportional representation, wasn't there a referendum...

No, I missed it but would dearly love to have seen it - it must have been very funny!

 

As you say, there was a referendum on PR a few years ago - and it didn't gain enough votes.  I never understood why, but accepted that the 'other side' had won, as did all those thinking PR was a better idea than FPTP.

 

Nonetheless, I refer back to my original post on this subject:-

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

<snip>

Perhaps the answer is to have an option for 'none of the above' on GE ballot papers?

 

The numbers voting for this option might possibly force politicians to not only realise that a large swathe of the electorate have no time for them at all - but might also force them into addressing the REASONS why so many voted that way?

 

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, rixalex said:

You're asking for something that can't be given. You want a figure to be put on what Brexit will cost and then you want it to be weighed up as to whether it's worth it. As stated numerous times, Brexit has never been done before. Nobody knows what the future holds for Britain out of the EU. Some people predict apocalypse, some Utopia, some something inbetween. How much will it cost? Nobody knows and anybody who tells you they do is lying.

And please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was happy for essential services to be hit. I said that I didn't believe that without Brexit essential services would be doing fine.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It is blatantly obvious that the UK cannot fund both brexit and the essential services. I am not putting words in your mouth, anyone who supports brexit is effectively making that a priority over essential services. Apart from health services that are being starved of funding the police are now claiming to be in serious trouble.

Its a fairly simple question, should the government's priority be to pay the huge administrative cost of brexit or try and keep the nation healthy and safe.

 

The Home Office is in the dark about whether cash-starved police forces are in danger of running out of money, a damning report warns today.

Auditors raise the alarm about the impact of eight years of austerity, warning forces are “experiencing financial strain and struggling to deliver effective services to the public”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/police-funding-uk-austerity-home-office-forces-nao-finance-a8531666.html

 

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, aright said:

Same old pedantic, we are outside the box, shuffle. 

Should you need reminding no damage has been inflicted on the UK; Brexit hasn't happened yet. European Elections have created damage in the EU however...…. although you don't seem to want to accept it or can't explain it or more likely don't believe it..

If I was a tightrope walker I would inspect the anchor points on both sides of the wire before crossing. That's not paranoia that's common sense. No further comment is needed.
 

 

 

"Should you need reminding no damage has been inflicted on the UK; Brexit hasn't happened yet." Brexit mentality in a nutshell.

 

"although you don't seem to want to accept it or can't explain it or more likely don't believe it.."  Why on earth would anyone want to feed your paranoia.

 

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is blatantly obvious that the UK cannot fund both brexit and the essential services. I am not putting words in your mouth, anyone who supports brexit is effectively making that a priority over essential services. Apart from health services that are being starved of funding the police are now claiming to be in serious trouble.

Its a fairly simple question, should the government's priority be to pay the huge administrative cost of brexit or try and keep the nation healthy and safe.

 

The Home Office is in the dark about whether cash-starved police forces are in danger of running out of money, a damning report warns today.

Auditors raise the alarm about the impact of eight years of austerity, warning forces are “experiencing financial strain and struggling to deliver effective services to the public”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/police-funding-uk-austerity-home-office-forces-nao-finance-a8531666.html

 

 

A non-argument. Austerity is a separate issue and it resulted directly from the 2008 global financial crisis, which was triggered in the US. If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was. No way to know for sure but the Swiss and Australians did well enough through the mess. 

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is blatantly obvious that the UK cannot fund both brexit and the essential services. I am not putting words in your mouth, anyone who supports brexit is effectively making that a priority over essential services. Apart from health services that are being starved of funding the police are now claiming to be in serious trouble.

Its a fairly simple question, should the government's priority be to pay the huge administrative cost of brexit or try and keep the nation healthy and safe.

 

The Home Office is in the dark about whether cash-starved police forces are in danger of running out of money, a damning report warns today.

Auditors raise the alarm about the impact of eight years of austerity, warning forces are “experiencing financial strain and struggling to deliver effective services to the public”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/police-funding-uk-austerity-home-office-forces-nao-finance-a8531666.html

 

 

"Its a fairly simple question, should the government's priority be to pay the huge administrative cost of brexit or try and keep the nation healthy and safe."

 

Sorry to be a bit flippant - but if only the same question had been asked when the govt. of the day imposed huge numbers of administrative staff on the NHS to 'run things more efficiently' - or words to that effect....?

 

I think most will admit that politicians and govt. civil servants like to expand their 'empires' - and promote their opportunities for earning lots of money as 'consultants/board members' once they leave/are thrown out of office.  The eu is just another well-paying route to these 'opportunities' that they'd rather not give up....

Edited September 11, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[melvinmelvin]

53 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Yes, but we can always have a new referendum....

 

 

We are the only country in Europe that retains FPTP - does that not say something ?

 

 

yes it does, you are stuck in the coal / rule the waves age

 

[dunroaming]

I believe that one thing is for certain.  Whatever deal or non deal that we end up with there will be civil unrest.  I can't see how that can be avoided now.  Emotions over Brexit are very high and that, after the conclusion, will lead to bitterness.  The anger will subside but I suspect the bitterness and recriminations will last for a very long time.

 

This whole referendum has been a disaster and there is no turning the clock back now.  Eventually things will settle down and we will all survive.  The cost for some will be higher than others but there will be a cost for everyone.  Even Liam Fox admits that now.

[sandyf]

30 minutes ago, nauseus said:

A non-argument. Austerity is a separate issue and it resulted directly from the 2008 global financial crisis, which was triggered in the US. If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was. No way to know for sure but the Swiss and Australians did well enough through the mess. 

How on earth can austerity be a separate issue, the money all comes from the same source, taxpayers. Both austerity and brexit are government inflicted conditions and to say they are separate is like saying it is ok for the man to sit in the betting shop while the kids have bread and water.

[sandyf]

For those that would choose to shrug off anything pre brexit as non brexit damage, a few words from Lord Hague.

 

“It would be no exaggeration to say this would be the most serious constitutional crisis in Britain for at least one century, possibly two,” he wrote.

 "It is worth thinking about (the various scenarios) because everyone in Parliament who is enjoying making categoric statements about being against Chequers or against 'no deal' is now loading the revolver for a game of Russian roulette, with a lot more than Brexit at stake."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-politics-live-updates-brexit-chequers-theresa-may-hague-conservatives-labour-latest-a8532151.html

[nauseus]

40 minutes ago, sandyf said:

How on earth can austerity be a separate issue, the money all comes from the same source, taxpayers. Both austerity and brexit are government inflicted conditions and to say they are separate is like saying it is ok for the man to sit in the betting shop while the kids have bread and water.

Brexit is a condition preferred by the majority of the people as confirmed by the referendum result. It is obviously not a condition that was preferred or even anticipated by the previous government and which is also evidently not preferred by this government either. Austerity was a measure to combat debt, which was the main driver of the financial crisis and I think that it was a necessary evil. Austerity measures were taken directly after the financial crisis and before the referendum was even a real possibility, so of course it is a separate issue.

[aright]

 

 

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

"Should you need reminding no damage has been inflicted on the UK; Brexit hasn't happened yet." Brexit mentality in a nutshell.

 

"although you don't seem to want to accept it or can't explain it or more likely don't believe it.."  Why on earth would anyone want to feed your paranoia.

 

It's not paranoia if all your fears are justified it's common sense but that concept eludes you.

It can be paranoia if you can't accept, explain or disbelieve a question. It's called being a piss prophet.

[SheungWan]

On 9/10/2018 at 2:03 AM, JAG said:

It is often said on Thai Visa that there is more to Thailand than Bangkok. Perhaps the same is true of the UK and London?

There's nothing outside London except an endless sea of grumpiness. Brexit just put it on steroids. To be avoided mostly.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SheungWan