Laws regarding power limits?

[thaiguzzi]

On 8/10/2018 at 7:51 PM, ktm jeff said:

Many people have started to question the worth of Honda products.

 

On 8/10/2018 at 7:58 PM, ktm jeff said:

It seems this dodgy practice of palming off lower spec models is only practiced by Honda

?

On 8/10/2018 at 7:29 PM, eisfeld said:

The question was more about why Honda is doing this in the first place

Because they can. They are the Corporate Big Red H.

Have you not realized they control world markets and world sport governing bodies for the last 3 decades?

Motocross, road racing, etc etc. The reason 500GP 2 strokes went the way of the dinosaur to be replaced by Moto GP 4 strokes was.... you guessed it .... The Big Red. All encompassing, all enveloping mass market Expletive.

Fortunately, in the sport of trials, although the world champion rides a Honda branded Montesa, and has done for a decade (!!??), virtually everybody else realizes that a 2 stroke is better, and a 4 stroke a bit naff.

And KTM won't allow them to win at Dakar anymore. Nor any other enduro.

Meanwhile, notice how much street cred Yamaha has been getting the last few years with new products that everybody seems to want, love, and customize? Punchy twins, raunchy triples, outrageous fours, retro sport heritage. Yard built YouTube vids galore.

If Honda could bottle what Yamaha have produced in the last 5-6 years or since the 09 crash, they either

a) would'nt know what to do with it, or

b) ##ck it up.

Let alone it being "hip" to wear a Yamaha baseball cap by hipsters  at hipster gatherings USA & Europe wide amongst all the other hip brands aka Triumph, Ducati, BMW et al...

Honda cannot even buy that sort of popularity.

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by thaiguzzi

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

Bigwing Phuket has a Dyno. How "decent" it is, I have no idea ? I got some free runs on there actually but never used it. Maybe time to try it out.

 

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

 

Well at least it means the official distributor of Honda in SG claims their bikes have the same power as e.g. EU spec bikes. I'd assume they don't restrict them then. Don't think a SG company like that would do false advertising, not in SG.

What I was meaning when you said Fireblades are 190hp there 189 hp but it's at the crank not at a Dyno back wheel torque reading where I think some people misunderstand.

 

Well yeah why not try Dyno to see how accurate it is, they need to be set correctly.

I don't see why a 130 hp Thai Fireblade can't be sorted to the 189 hp if it can't then there's something very different with the engine.

 

Why don't you go for the R1 the crank hp is over 200, my son in England has his R1 OEM engine up to 187 bhp at the back wheels just with different air filter, aftermarket 3/4 exhaust system and power commander and properly tuned on a Dyno.

 

[eisfeld]

39 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

 

What I was meaning when you said Fireblades are 190hp there 189 hp but it's at the crank not at a Dyno back wheel torque reading where I think some people misunderstand.

 

Well yeah why not try Dyno to see how accurate it is, they need to be set correctly.

I don't see why a 130 hp Thai Fireblade can't be sorted to the 189 hp if it can't then there's something very different with the engine.

 

Why don't you go for the R1 the crank hp is over 200, my son in England has his R1 OEM engine up to 187 bhp at the back wheels just with different air filter, aftermarket 3/4 exhaust system and power commander and properly tuned on a Dyno.

 

Yea I know those are crank figures as no manufacturer provides rear wheel figures but that's fine because my point was that the figures are the same in SG as in EU for example, aka not restricted.

 

I'm sure you can modify the Fireblade to get to the original figures but again, warranty loss and costs for no reason.

 

I don't actually want any R1, Fireblade or other supersport bike for that matter as I don't do track days and have no track anywhere near. But I'm looking at naked bikes as they are super fun around town and the new CB1000R wasn't looking so bad until they told me even this bike is now restricted to 120HP from 145HP. In theory I'd be fine with 120HP but not if I know I should be getting more and the other sporty nakeds make 150-170HP. It's just something I don't want to support.

[ktm jeff]

6 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Agree somewhat but there has to be a reason, how can we know that other manufacturers are not doing the same to some degree.

Smaller bikes don't seem to be affected my 250 goes very well. ?

Maybe if there was a decent engine Dyno in Thailand then riders could know what power they have compared to the western bikes say. 

 

SV 1000.  Nice. Suzuki,s answer to a Duke. Ive never heard about any other company so severely restricting power as much as Honda. A 190BHP bike will show about 175BHP on the dyno , or 125 if its a Honda , but the problem is youve bought it by then. You need to find out its true power before you hand over your hard earned cash - and we know the "salespeople" at Honda wont tell you the true figures , so they are as helpful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

[ktm jeff]

4 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

Because they can. They are the Corporate Big Red H.

 

Honda started to go downhill when they couldnt be bothered to sort out the fueling on the 2000 Blade. The bean counters had took over by then. They still havent moved out. Such a waste of a once great company.  Honda started flogging bikes over 50 years ago in Thailand - good bikes back then - and once had about a 85% share of the Thai market , when no other company was trying to make in roads.  Kawasaki got serious about 8 years ago , and Yamaha shortly after. That figure of 85% has fallen fast ,  as people question value , and pop their heads out of the "big red box" to have a look around. Yamaha wants that No1 spot. They will soon get it.

[ktm jeff]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

I'm sure you can modify the Fireblade to get to the original figures but again, warranty loss and costs for no reason.

 

Those guys that tried it before spent a lot of  time , money and research - and still couldnt do it.  There seemed to be more to it than people thought.  Thats why i said it made no sense , as the number of components making up the engine remains the same. The general concensus was if you wanted a full power bike , buy from Red Baron.  I have no links to this shop , never even been there , but they seemed to be the ones who knew far more than the Honda salesman.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

Honda started to go downhill when they couldnt be bothered to sort out the fueling on the 2000 Blade. The bean counters had took over by then. They still havent moved out. Such a waste of a once great company.  Honda started flogging bikes over 50 years ago in Thailand - good bikes back then - and once had about a 85% share of the Thai market , when no other company was trying to make in roads.  Kawasaki got serious about 8 years ago , and Yamaha shortly after. That figure of 85% has fallen fast ,  as people question value , and pop their heads out of the "big red box" to have a look around. Yamaha wants that No1 spot. They will soon get it.

Honda will never be downhill they move around within controlling everything in in the motorcycle industry.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

SV 1000.  Nice. Suzuki,s answer to a Duke. Ive never heard about any other company so severely restricting power as much as Honda. A 190BHP bike will show about 175BHP on the dyno , or 125 if its a Honda , but the problem is youve bought it by then. You need to find out its true power before you hand over your hard earned cash - and we know the "salespeople" at Honda wont tell you the true figures , so they are as helpful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Well bhp like I mentioned along the way is about speed if your want acceleration torque is whats needed. 

[ktm jeff]

IMO , Honda are going downhill , in market share , quality and innovation. When i look for a new bike , they are not even a company i  consider . Why would you when you have better products from other companies.  If you reduce BHP , you reduce torque.  So why would you buy a 140BHP Honda instead of a 195BHP Yamaha or Kawasaki. Im not telling anyone what to spend their money on , but at least theres some hope for them if they have a look around at the many other products available. 

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

IMO , Honda are going downhill , in market share , quality and innovation. When i look for a new bike , they are not even a company i  consider . Why would you when you have better products from other companies.  If you reduce BHP , you reduce torque.  So why would you buy a 140BHP Honda instead of a 195BHP Yamaha or Kawasaki. Im not telling anyone what to spend their money on , but at least theres some hope for them if they have a look around at the many other products available. 

The Honda Zoom & don't know what there called"monkeys bike" I have always called em are selling like hotcakes in and around Sukhothai, and the Clicks are everywhere.

I'm only 1 of 2 in our village that's has CRF250 I had to order it as they only stock many of the ones I mentioned.

I would say Honda aren't bothered about selling the so called big bikes.

Whats the different's in speed between a 140 hp and a 190 hp wouldn't of thought many riders would notice the difference.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Kwasaki

[ktm jeff]

People who buy Zoom , Kawasaki KSR , Yamaha Q-Bix , Filano and the many generic monkey bikes from Lifan , Zongshen Ryuka and Stallion are just after a run-around bike. From just 30K brand new ( 50K for the honda ) they are disposable transport , people change when bored. Superbikes are bought with more thought and purpose . 140 BHP will still give a top speed in excess of most peoples desires , but the 190 BHP will be higher but accelerate far better. Like yourself , im not sure of Hondas big-bike plans for the future . Dont think Honda has a clue either.

[eisfeld]

They don't have to reduce torque necessarily. They might just put a rev limiter in. But really not sure what exactly they did without torque figures or a dyno chart. But either way it's crappy.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

People who buy Zoom , Kawasaki KSR , Yamaha Q-Bix , Filano and the many generic monkey bikes from Lifan , Zongshen Ryuka and Stallion are just after a run-around bike. From just 30K brand new ( 50K for the honda ) they are disposable transport , people change when bored. Superbikes are bought with more thought and purpose . 140 BHP will still give a top speed in excess of most peoples desires , but the 190 BHP will be higher but accelerate far better. Like yourself , im not sure of Hondas big-bike plans for the future . Dont think Honda has a clue either.

More torque for acceleration don't need hp, hp gives you a higher top end. 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

They don't have to reduce torque necessarily. They might just put a rev limiter in. But really not sure what exactly they did without torque figures or a dyno chart. But either way it's crappy.

Rev limiter's are usually cut outs when going passed a red-line on many bikes, I don't know of any intermediary ones. 

As l have said before a 1000 c.c. bike with only a 100 bhp can be made to accelerate very quicky.

[moose7117]

If you read the snap i took out of workshop manual, you can see that there are different power settings depending in country of use.

now if i can only figure out how to get a WVTA ECU !

[Kwasaki]

52 minutes ago, moose7117 said:

If you read the snap i took out of workshop manual, you can see that there are different power settings depending in country of use.

now if i can only figure out how to get a WVTA ECU !

Interesting manufacturers using different ECU's this list of ECU's used below not same the TH in you list is probably the least performance one ? maybe that's why some say here changing things on Honda don't work the only way it seems is change the ECU.

Tuners tell change out my ECU in my crf 250 for more top end.

 

WVTA (FULL)

GB WVTA (FULL)

SEA-B2

AU

WVTA (78.2)

BR

 

 

 

 

[Mattd]

Could the reason be more to do with taxation laws, rather than power restriction laws?

There MAY be some price benefit for Honda to keep the power at a certain level.

[eisfeld]

Thanks for posting this moose7117! Very interesting. To me it looks like it just doesn't rev as high in the Thai spec as in others. Peak power is 2k RPM lower and peak torque is not so much down (and comes in 1.3k earlier). So either they made the torque drop after 9k RPM or it just doesn't rev much higher. Even if it revs

 

 

But wait... scratch all that. Is that really from a CBR1000RR workshop manual? Honda never claimed they can output 200HP. The specs in non-restricted markets say about 192HP at 13k RPM and not 200HP at 11k.

.... google... google... ah it's ZX14... ?

 

So yea, Kawa is doing it too it seems. Lesson learned: always look at a workshop manual to get proper specs and check if the model you are interested in is restricted ?

[moose7117]

NO its from a kawasaki H2SX workshop manual.

[jackdd]

It might have to do something with emissions

When looking at the workshop manual of the Z1000 you can see that the Cal, SEA-B1 and TH models have an "evaporative emission control system" which other countries don't have. So maybe the official rules regarding emissions in Thailand are quite strict.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

It might have to do something with emissions

When looking at the workshop manual of the Z1000 you can see that the Cal, SEA-B1 and TH models have an "evaporative emission control system" which other countries don't have. So maybe the official rules regarding emissions in Thailand are quite strict.

You have a good point there not tried it myself, my son in UK said many disconnect sensors and replace catalytic's, change ECU fuel setting's etc or replace the ECU to get more power.

As for emissions in Thailand are quite strict, maybe there supposed to be but the test centre wouldn't touch my Versys 650 at 5 year test, only check numbers and take a picture.