CM Immigration Q&A (2018)

[Sheryl]

Koninini you have not been using the income method, you have been using to 800k in the bank method. For that there are some significant changes as follows:

1. In addition to having to have the 800k in the bank 2-3 months before extension you also have to keep it untouched for 3 months after that, and after that it must remain about 400k until time to top back up to 800k again. I say "2-3" because the new police order says 2 but is rather unclearly written snd some IOs still consider it 3. In other words starting from the day you extend (having already seasoned 800k for 3 months before that) you need to maintain balance of:

3 months - 800k
6 months - 400k
3 months 800k (seasoning for the next application).

If you can confirm with your IO that they understand the new seasoning period to he 2 rather than 3 months (some do, some don't) then this changes to

3 months 800k
7 months 400k
2 months 800k

Either way you can no longer draw down and spend the 800k as you used to and indeed, with the hassle of timing withdrawals and maintaing the minimum required many people have just opted to just put 800k aside in a fixed deposit account untouched. Which of course means you need to bring in other funds to live on.

AFAIK nothing has changed for dependent spouse visa.

If you want yo switch over to monthly income method you need to show 12 monthly transfers (every month) of at least 65k originating from abroad. Be aware that there are issues with the coding of incoming transfers if using a currency excange service like Transferwise. Read up on it,, there have been many threads.

Some IOs -- and CM might be one of then I'm not sure -- have taken it upon themselves to ask for additional proofs of source of income from abroad such as pension statements though it is not required by the police order.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Konini]

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Either way you can no longer draw down and spend the 800k as you used to and indeed, with the hassle of timing withdrawals and maintaing the minimum required many people have just opted to just put 800k aside in a fixed deposit account untouched. Which of course means you need to bring in other funds to live on.

AFAIK nothing has changed for dependent spouse visa.

If you want yo switch over to monthly income method you need to show 12 monthly transfers (every month) of at least 65k originating from abroad. Be aware that there are issues with the coding of incoming transfers if using a currency excange service like Transferwise. Read up on it,, there have been many threads.

Some IOs -- and CM might be one of then I'm not sure -- have taken it upon themselves to ask for additional proofs of source of income from abroad such as pension statements though it is not required by the police order.

Thanks Sheryl - looks like we'll have to just do what we have been doing so far with the 800k in the bank 3 months prior to the extension (January) and start bringing over 70k or so every month from December by bank transfer ready for the year after.  It's our own self managed Superannuation fund, so we can get our accountant to do a statement just in case we need it.  Even though I knew it was a long shot I thought we might get away with starting to do the monthly transfers now, but there would only be 9 of them.  It's either that or putting 800k into a bank account and just 'forgetting' about it for as long as we want to stay here.

 

We've got until the next extension is due to decide which way to go - there is even a third way we can go; if our current health insurance policy isn't deemed to be acceptable by immigration, we'll have to think very seriously about whether or not to stay on here.  The minimum policy for us per the government's site would be over 100,000 baht (2 x 52,000) which is more than we are paying now for an overseas policy with an awful lot more benefits and that would definitely be the straw that breaks this camel's back.  What, with the couple of months in Europe, a month in Australia, 3 or 4 short holidays around Asia every year and this year almost 3 months of unbreathable air up here, we might just be better off with a couple of tourist visas and a couple of visa exemptions on arrival.  We already have a lease and our driver's licences will be renewed for another 5 years soon, so I can't see any drawbacks to that plan (not having a Non-O) at the moment.

 

Too much to think about at the moment, we go to England on Monday and I had to get a back tooth pulled about an hour ago.  The only thing about it that didn't hurt was the 1,000 baht it cost.  I was sooo looking forward to fish and chips and English-Chinese food, and mam's Sunday roast and Yorkshire puddings but from previous experience I'm going to be on almost cold porridge and honey for about 3 weeks.  First world problems, I know, but if you can't wallow in self-pity after having a tooth out, then you never can.

[Lordfoul]

Here is a write up my experience getting a 1-year extension of stay on a Non-Immigrant visa based on volunteering. This was done on Tuesday, May 14th.

 

7:45AM I entered immigration. While I was not surprised to find it open, I was a bit surprised to see that everyone there already had queue numbers and that they were being called to their various sections.
I handed my paperwork to the officer at the front desk, she informed me that my TM.7  (from last year) was out of date so I filled out a new one quickly. I received my queue number and found a seat. 

 

7:55AM My queue number was called. I proceed to the desk and handed over my stack of paperwork. It turns out 2 other forms had changed since last year ( STM.2 and the form informing of the penalties for overstaying). I filled these out quickly. While the officer finished looking through my paperwork.

 

8:10AM My passport was stamped with the extension and I paid the 1900 Baht. Now to wait for my name to be called for the photo.

 

8:30AM Called up to counter 5, photo taken, documents signed. Now to wait for my Passport and receipt.

 

8:45AM All finished. Passport and receipt received.

 

It was exactly one hour from the time I walked in until the time I walked out with my 1-year extension. When I had arrived, seating was only 60%-70% full and no one was waiting in line. When I left it was a little bit busier and maybe 5 people lined up at the front desk. In 18 years, this was by far the easiest and quickest time I had at immigration. Everyone seemed friendly and relaxed and there was an actual flow to the process. I really hope it stays this way.

[cusanus]

2 hours ago, Mapguy said:

Relevant to a spouse aged under 50 being carried as a marital dependent on the other’s initial permission to stay (long stay - retirement) and extensions, has anyone encountered Chiang Mai Immigration’s policy once the dependent spouse reaches the age of 50? Is the spouse coming of age required to change status and (with financial and any other requirements) to establish independent permission to stay?

Have say not. My wife and I were both over 50 when we arrived in 2005 and we used the spousal (dependent) visa extension, 800,000 baht. Heck, I didn't even know the spouse could be under 50. 

[cusanus]

52 minutes ago, Konini said:

We've got until the next extension is due to decide which way to go - there is even a third way we can go; if our current health insurance policy isn't deemed to be acceptable by immigration, we'll have to think very seriously about whether or not to stay on here.  The minimum policy for us per the government's site would be over 100,000 baht (2 x 52,000) which is more than we are paying now for an overseas policy with an awful lot more benefits and that would definitely be the straw that breaks this camel's back.  What, with the couple of months in Europe, a month in Australia, 3 or 4 short holidays around Asia every year and this year almost 3 months of unbreathable air up here, we might just be better off with a couple of tourist visas and a couple of visa exemptions on arrival.  We already have a lease and our driver's licences will be renewed for another 5 years soon, so I can't see any drawbacks to that plan (not having a Non-O) at the moment.

My understanding is that the health insurance requirement applies only to five year visas.  In any case, I'm 100% insuranced, but I have many friends who are not. 

[Dante99]

25 minutes ago, cusanus said:

My understanding is that the health insurance requirement applies only to five year visas. 

Yes Konini is wrong about the insurance requirement as she/he was about the deposit insurance at Thai banks.

[cusanus]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

Yes Konini is wrong about the insurance requirement as she/he was about the deposit insurance at Thai banks.

Well, yeah, I hope so, but this Nation article says otherwise:  https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY

 

 

[Mapguy]

2 hours ago, cusanus said:

Have say not. My wife and I were both over 50 when we arrived in 2005 and we used the spousal (dependent) visa extension, 800,000 baht. Heck, I didn't even know the spouse could be under 50. 

Child bride.

 

[Dante99]

1 hour ago, cusanus said:

Well, yeah, I hope so, but this Nation article says otherwise:  https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY

 

 

Thanks for that.  I am a few weeks behing on news.  Problem seems to remain about how they will be able to verify foreign policies.

[Konini]

4 hours ago, cusanus said:

Have say not. My wife and I were both over 50 when we arrived in 2005 and we used the spousal (dependent) visa extension, 800,000 baht. Heck, I didn't even know the spouse could be under 50. 

For the first few years we were here we got 12 month Non-O's from Hull in England.  By the time they shut that down (they were handing out too many Non-O's), he was 50, I was only 48 but no problems - sorry for the confusion.

 

Since then though, my husband has a Non-O (Retirement hand written on the stamp) which he applied for in Chiang Mai and I piggy back onto his visa extension as his spouse (goods and chattels) with my own extension. 

[Mapguy]

It seems you are now 50. Question is once you reached age 50 did Immigration insist the “piggy-backing” day’s were over and it has been necessary for you to convert your dependent visa and since sustain an extension of your own standing financial and otherwise.

[cusanus]

2 hours ago, Mapguy said:

It seems you are now 50. Question is once you reached age 50 did Immigration insist the “piggy-backing” day’s were over and it has been necessary for you to convert your dependent visa and since sustain an extension of your own standing financial and otherwise.

she means that she's using the spousal / dependent extension now as before. 

[cusanus]

4 hours ago, Dante99 said:

Thanks for that.  I am a few weeks behing on news.  Problem seems to remain about how they will be able to verify foreign policies.

Or if they'll accept Medicare A and / or B. Probably not. Also, dependent coverage through a Thai government spouse... 

[Thailand]

12 hours ago, Mapguy said:

It seems you are now 50. Question is once you reached age 50 did Immigration insist the “piggy-backing” day’s were over and it has been necessary for you to convert your dependent visa and since sustain an extension of your own standing financial and otherwise.

We have been doing it for 17 years without any problems and both well over 50.

[Thailand]

21 hours ago, Konini said:

We were told specifically that the account had to be in my husband's name only and that they would not accept a joint account for his extension.

 

While we can pick up a bit of interest, we can make a lot more with it invested which is why I don't want to have to keep the money in a bank account.  If we have to go down that route for the next extension we will, but we'll definitely be doing the income method for the one following.

We have used the dependent method for many years with the 800K.

Don't even know if you can do it with the monthly income route but will give it a try later in the year. We will have 12 months of pension income and 6 months of "income" but total below the 800K at renewal time but there is supposed to be leniency, we will see.

Another pain we are coming across is incoming funds designated as Bahtnet so we have to get confirmation of source of overseas income from intermediary banks but so far cannot get a response.

[cusanus]

Intermediate alert for those who missed it. According to recent news, yearly extensions require health insurance in Thailand (40,000 / 400,000 limits). The bloke who challenged me regarding unpaid bills by farangs can check the article. Looks like this will be enforced starting July.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY 

[Dante99]

12 minutes ago, cusanus said:

Intermediate alert for those who missed it. According to recent news, yearly extensions require health insurance in Thailand (40,000 / 400,000 limits). The bloke who challenged me regarding unpaid bills by farangs can check the article. Looks like this will be enforced starting July.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY 

Unpaid bills as a justification does not hold water.  I buy insurance today and it will not cover preexisting conditions so any bills for preexisting condition treatment will not be covered by insurance and will remain problematic for hospitals.  And being old, most all of my medical bills are for preexisting conditions so insurance does not help me either.

[cnxnicho]

12 minutes ago, cusanus said:

Intermediate alert for those who missed it. According to recent news, yearly extensions require health insurance in Thailand (40,000 / 400,000 limits). The bloke who challenged me regarding unpaid bills by farangs can check the article. Looks like this will be enforced starting July.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY 

Too much confusion,  it relates to Non-immigrant O-A long term visas only

 

Approved by the Cabinet last month, the new regulation will require expats on the long-stay non-immigrant O-A visa to have health insurance that offers Bt40,000 coverage for outpatient treatment and Bt400,000 for inpatient. 

 

[WaveHunter]

24 minutes ago, cusanus said:

Intermediate alert for those who missed it. According to recent news, yearly extensions require health insurance in Thailand (40,000 / 400,000 limits). The bloke who challenged me regarding unpaid bills by farangs can check the article. Looks like this will be enforced starting July.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY 

That article refers to O-A visas, not extensions.  My understanding was the new regulation does not pertain to extensions.  Am I mistaken?

 

Also, does anyone know if ED Visas are effected (if you are over 50)?

 

Personally, I’ve always had “travelers insurance” while here in Thailand.  I think the dollar amounts exceed the requirements mentioned, but not sure if “travelers insurance” meets the terms of this new regulation.

 

Always something to give you a headache, when it comes to Thai IMM ☹️

[Thailand]

30 minutes ago, cusanus said:

Intermediate alert for those who missed it. According to recent news, yearly extensions require health insurance in Thailand (40,000 / 400,000 limits). The bloke who challenged me regarding unpaid bills by farangs can check the article. Looks like this will be enforced starting July.
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30369468?fbclid=IwAR13o_EyzGHJOTEB0LnT2cIqBCu2mJQC0XEkvW6PrTxJGHu6C4qipisCEqY 

Many threads on this at the moment, it looks like it may not apply to extensions of stay based on retirement only for non-immigrant O-A visa applied for from home embassy or abroad.

[cnxnicho]

15 minutes ago, Thailand said:

Many threads on this at the moment, it looks like it may not apply to extensions of stay based on retirement only for non-immigrant O-A visa applied for from home embassy or abroad.

Yes correct, as I said too much confusion and misleading threads !

[Konini]

Whilst technically correct about the wording of the new law, I think the spirit of that law is to have folks all on 'retirement' or other long stay Non-0 visas and extensions medically insured.  To be honest, I don't blame them, making sure that their public hospitals aren't left out of pocket, and I'm sure that we will all be required to have it, if not straight away then as soon as someone has a lightbulb moment and realises that most Non-O holders still aren't insured.  However, there are plenty of people who have insurance bought overseas that covers far, far more than that required - how many different insurance companies in how many different countries each with different layout for their policy certificates?  Our actual policy certificate doesn't have any dollar amounts on, just refers you to the online only terms and conditions.  And as Dante said, pre-existing conditions won't be covered by new insurance so the new law is not quite hitting the spot; Fred Bloggs may have his insurance policy which ensures he gets his extension, but he has a heart attack which isn't covered because of earlier health issues.  Fred Bloggs would, it seems to me, be the person most likely to end up with a big hospital bill that he can't pay.  It hasn't been well thought out at all, although I have no idea how you would solve the issues.  Something like this would be in the bottom of anyone's too hard basket.  

 

Like Wavehunter we too have travellers insurance, unlimited medical and US$10 million public liability.  We pay less for that annual (joint or family policy, covers both of us) policy than we would have to pay for a local one (cheapest I could see was 52k each, Mr K is 56 next year so we'll be in the next bracket then).  If for any reason our existing policy doesn't cover us and we are required to pay 102k baht a year for insurance we wouldn't use (because the policy we already have is much better and we need that policy anyway for when we are in countries other than Thailand) the camel's back can be officially considered broken.  

[JimGant]

Immigration is not going to have the wherewithal to decipher insurance policies, same situation as with income supporting documents. And isn't it interesting that the minimum coverage required for inpatient care is 400,000baht. Where have we seen that before? Oh, yeah, the minimum required to be in a bank account for all year, at least for those going the money in the bank method for extension renewal. So, why not follow the Malaysian example, i.e., they require all expats to have a bank account in Malaysia, with a stipulated minimum. However, this minimum can be violated for medical necessities. So then, for Thailand, require all expats here on extensions for retirement to have a 400k bank account, which can be tapped for medical necessities. Immigration can give a credit for the deficit spent for medical care -- to be made up by some date in the future. Yeah, hospitals will still be stiffed by tourists. But at least those here on retirement extensions of stay (which would include O-A one year permissions of stay) will be self-insured, at least to some extent. And 400k would go a long way to pay real costs incurred by a hospital.

[Tracyb]

20 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Immigration is not going to have the wherewithal to decipher insurance policies, same situation as with income supporting documents. And isn't it interesting that the minimum coverage required for inpatient care is 400,000baht. Where have we seen that before? Oh, yeah, the minimum required to be in a bank account for all year, at least for those going the money in the bank method for extension renewal. So, why not follow the Malaysian example, i.e., they require all expats to have a bank account in Malaysia, with a stipulated minimum. However, this minimum can be violated for medical necessities. So then, for Thailand, require all expats here on extensions for retirement to have a 400k bank account, which can be tapped for medical necessities. Immigration can give a credit for the deficit spent for medical care -- to be made up by some date in the future. Yeah, hospitals will still be stiffed by tourists. But at least those here on retirement extensions of stay (which would include O-A one year permissions of stay) will be self-insured, at least to some extent. And 400k would go a long way to pay real costs incurred by a hospital.

This would seem the best way to go.  

Im not opposed to stashing away 400-500,000 baht for medical.  Id much rather that than send any money to insurance companies.  

[Thailand]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Immigration is not going to have the wherewithal to decipher insurance policies, same situation as with income supporting documents. And isn't it interesting that the minimum coverage required for inpatient care is 400,000baht. Where have we seen that before? Oh, yeah, the minimum required to be in a bank account for all year, at least for those going the money in the bank method for extension renewal. So, why not follow the Malaysian example, i.e., they require all expats to have a bank account in Malaysia, with a stipulated minimum. However, this minimum can be violated for medical necessities. So then, for Thailand, require all expats here on extensions for retirement to have a 400k bank account, which can be tapped for medical necessities. Immigration can give a credit for the deficit spent for medical care -- to be made up by some date in the future. Yeah, hospitals will still be stiffed by tourists. But at least those here on retirement extensions of stay (which would include O-A one year permissions of stay) will be self-insured, at least to some extent. And 400k would go a long way to pay real costs incurred by a hospital.

There are numerous posts on the forum as a whole and a number of times on this thread , particularly from Ubon Joe simply saying the "insurance" is only for non-immigrant O-A visa obtained from your home country or overseas not for extensions of stay based on retirement.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Thailand

[Konini]

39 minutes ago, Thailand said:

There are numerous posts on the forum as a whole and a number of times on this thread , particularly from Ubon Joe simply saying the "insurance" is only for non-immigrant O-A visa obtained from your home country or overseas not for extensions of stay based on retirement.

 

This is the case for sure.  However, I believe that the sprint of what they are trying to do has been botched by a very badly written law. They obviously want everyone here long term to have medical insurance, but the way it's been written (or should I say translated to English, I don't read Thai) it is aimed only at one particular group, the Non-O A visas.  In the news article it quoted imm saying all long term people on Non-O, so that would include volunteers, religious types etc.

 

As it has been published in English, it won't affect us, but I'm quite sure that they have just written or translated it badly so it appears not to include us.  I think that will change once they get into the 2nd week or so of July when they have processed a couple of hundred extensions.  I hope not, but I think it's coming.

 

IO's wouldn't be able to verify the various certificates presented to them, and anyone with a PDF editor can change whatever's on the policy in a matter of minutes. 

(Not that I would know anything about that kind of thing, of course). ????

[cusanus]

4 hours ago, Thailand said:

Many threads on this at the moment, it looks like it may not apply to extensions of stay based on retirement only for non-immigrant O-A visa applied for from home embassy or abroad.

 

4 hours ago, nichopaulcnx said:

Too much confusion,  it relates to Non-immigrant O-A long term visas only. Approved by the Cabinet last month, the new regulation will require expats on the long-stay non-immigrant O-A visa to have health insurance that offers Bt40,000 coverage for outpatient treatment and Bt400,000 for inpatient. 

From Thai Embassy: Non-Immigrant Category “O-A” Purpose of Visit: This type of visa may be issued to applicants aged 50 years and over who wish to stay in Thailand for a period of not exceeding 1 year without the intention of working. Holder of this type of visa is allowed to stay in Thailand for 1 year."

So we have a lot of experts on this forum, but... I and all my retired friends have O-A visas. The Non-Immigrant O-A is a one year extension type visa. Nor does the article say anything about visas obtained abroad or from a home country, but quite the contrary. "Current holders of this visa will have to produce proof of their health insurance for visa renewal,”... 

 

Now, admittedly, the article may not be accurate, but the way I read it, it applies to all annual extensions of O-A visas. Those are one year extension visas, not five or ten. Having been an insurance agent for 13 years in the states, I can't see any challenge for an IO to determine if a policy meets requirements. Repeatedly casting doubt on the intelligence of Thai authorities could very well be hitting us in the pocket down the road. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by cusanus

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, cusanus said:

From Thai Embassy: Non-Immigrant Category “O-A” Purpose of Visit: This type of visa may be issued to applicants aged 50 years and over who wish to stay in Thailand for a period of not exceeding 1 year without the intention of working. Holder of this type of visa is allowed to stay in Thailand for 1 year."

So we have a lot of experts on this forum, but... I and all my retired friends have O-A visas. The Non-Immigrant O-A is a one year extension type visa. Nor does the article say anything about visas obtained abroad or from a home country, but quite the contrary. "Current holders of this visa will have to produce proof of their health insurance for visa renewal,”... 

 

Now, admittedly, the article may not be accurate, but the way I read it, it applies to all annual extensions of O-A visas. Having been an insurance agent for 13 years in the states, I can't see any challenge for an IO to determine if a policy meets requirements. Repeatedly casting doubt on the intelligence of Thai authorities could very well be hitting us in the pocket down the road. 

I agree with you 100%. Numerous Thai sites refer to "renewal" when they mean, technically, extension (see Siam Legal, for example). I believe anyone who enters in the future or entered in the past on an O-A visa and now has an extension will need to produce evidence of health insurance when they get to their next extension. The only "known unknown" is what that evidence must be, which is why they've given themselves a couple of months to figure it out

[cusanus]

11 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I agree with you 100%. Numerous Thai sites refer to "renewal" when they mean, technically, extension (see Siam Legal, for example). I believe anyone who enters in the future or entered in the past on an O-A visa and now has an extension will need to produce evidence of health insurance when they get to their next extension. The only "known unknown" is what that evidence must be, which is why they've given themselves a couple of months to figure it out

Yes, thank you. Perhaps there's a fine point I did not understand, not that it's material to the issue. The O-A is the one issued abroad or in the home country, but that's most us I believe, surely.  It wouldn't be me I guess, having gotten mine in Thailand and seeing only the O in my passport. Nevertheless, it appears to apply to all extensions for holders of O-A visas, but perhaps not the holders of simple O visas. I don't understand why this should matter. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by cusanus

[Konini]

The more I think about it, the more I think that this will only apply to people who got their original visa from abroad. For the Non-O A obtained abroad, there is no requirement to have money in the bank in Thailand.  Those Non-O (retired) on the 800k method of extensions now have to keep 400k in the bank, which just happens to be the amount of insurance required.

 

I was wrong, I think.  Having the 400k in the bank is equal to what Non-O A will have to have in insurance cover.  The big thing I imagine is going to be those who came in originally on a Non-O A and got extensions to it.  I think for those people it probably would be worth ditching the Non-O A and just starting from scratch and getting a Non-O (retired).  Of course we really don't know what will happen, it's going to be a case of sitting back and waiting for it to all pan out.  Thankfully, we have until January before we need to act and the new rules will have settled down by then.