BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

It's all becoming pretty obvious, isn't it? Thailand is tired of too many foreigners not able to live sufficiently in Thailand, to include many who are stiffing hospitals. This includes some (many?) who have historically shown completely valid and verifiable income statements -- but whose income -- for many and varied reasons -- is not arriving in sufficient amounts into Thailand.

 

Jim, I think it's a misleading argument to bring the hospital debts issue into this discussion about income affidavits and as a reason for Thai immigration pressing a change on that.

 

For starters, the hospital non-payments issue isn't by any means limited to expats on Immigration extensions, but probably is just as much or more related to tourists who come here and get seriously injured without adequate travel/medical insurance -- as the constant parade of "go fund me" pleas from families in other countries demonstrate.

 

Then second, even among the extensions group of expats, there's the bank deposits group and there's there monthly income group. If someone in the bank deposits group has to spend down their deposit to pay for hospital bills, I'd argue, there's probably a greater chance they're looking at being unable to replace those funds and thus lose their right to remain in Thailand.

 

I'm sure they are some monthly income extension people who might be among the hospital non-payers group. But frankly, I don't think you or I have any idea to what extent that's occurring. And at least by my sense of things, I'd wager it's the tourist population (who of course have nothing to do with Immigration extensions) who probably represent the bigger share of the problem.

 

 

[JimGant]

Quote

For starters, the hospital non-payments issue isn't by any means limited to expats on Immigration extensions, but probably is just as much or more related to tourists who come here and get seriously injured without adequate travel/medical insurance

Of course it's not limited to the expat community. But in the realm of probabilities, the expat community is at a higher age -- and thus health risk -- than your average tourist (most of whom aren't backpackers but working folks -- with employee insurance -- on holiday). Plus, again, with probabilities, what's the chance of needing medical assistance if you lived here 10 years (and you're a geezer) vs. the two week tourist?

 

No, my main point was Thailand is heading for the "show me tne money" mode. And I can't blame them.

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

It's quite possible that proof of income has always been available through deposits in a Thai bank, bank statements and a letter from the bank, same as deposited funds.

 

Immigration orders are very vague regarding proof of income:

'Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or' is the exact wording.

No mention of the method of evidence, in a foreign bank, a Thai bank, or the Embassy income letter we are all familiar with.

 

It would be interesting if a British expat resident in Bangkok, would actually be prepared to test the information.

i.e. Submitting 12 months Thai bank statements without a BE letter.

 

 

IO's are fiefdoms and lay out the regulations as they see fit, isn't there this little 'get out of trouble' clause......''at the discretion of the immigration officer'', yes he had all the right papers but I didn't like his shirt.

[Thaidream]

39 minutes ago, JimGant said:

f course it's not limited to the expat community. But in the realm of probabilities, the expat community is at a higher age -- and thus health risk -- than your average tourist (most of whom aren't backpackers but working folks -- with employee insurance -- on holiday). Plus, again, with probabilities, what's the chance of needing medical assistance if you lived here 10 years (and you're a geezer) vs. the two week tourist?

Thailand has 25-30 million people per year go through their airports as tourists- a simple 200-500 Baht fee could be added- to flight tickets or  visa fees- the pool would be huge for medical care. in addition- those who are expats should be allowed to buy into the Social Security Health scheme at xx amount per month- again , another huge pot.  The future is not private paid insurance which is complicit with  medical providers in driving  rates higher and higher.  The breaking point has arrived in places like the Us where people can't afford medical care or insurance.  The future is universal healthcare- funded by both citizens and governments.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Thailand has 25-30 million people per year go through their airports as tourists- a simple 200-500 Baht fee could be added- to flight tickets or  visa fees- the pool would be huge for medical care. in addition- those who are expats should be allowed to buy into the Social Security Health scheme at xx amount per month- again , another huge pot.  The future is not private paid insurance which is complicit with  medical providers in driving  rates higher and higher.  The breaking point has arrived in places like the Us where people can't afford medical care or insurance.  The future is universal healthcare- funded by both citizens and governments.

The trouble there is demographics, too many old codgers like myself not dying off as quickly as we should do.

[soalbundy]

East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet,

Till earth and sky stand presently at Gods great judgement seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed nor Birth,

When TI and BE stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth.

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

It's quite possible that proof of income has always been available through deposits in a Thai bank, bank statements and a letter from the bank, same as deposited funds.

 

Immigration orders are very vague regarding proof of income:

'Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or' is the exact wording.

No mention of the method of evidence, in a foreign bank, a Thai bank, or the Embassy income letter we are all familiar with...

 

 

 

 

The immigration law is non-specific as to means of proof.

 

There is an Immigration document in English listing required documentation for the income method which specifically states Embassy letter, and only Embassy letter. Presumably this emerged from some sort of internal Imm notice to local  Imm offices. This  is what needs to change. The Bangkok Office may know about the change but I guarantee you the multitude of upcountry offices will not all know and people will be turned away for lack of an Embassy letter unless some sort of notification goes out to them updating the list if acceptable documentation.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Not that I'm aware of. Embassy letters are still being issued. Is it possible for people to be PATIENT about this? Thai immigration may surprise us and make a definitive announcement sooner than later. Until then, just face it .. we don't know and we can't know. 

That presupposes that they are taking action related to the 2 Embassy's  having stopped the letters and that the understand the need to send very specific, simple, clear guidance to all the IOs nationwide regarding a change in required docuemntation.

 

I would not bank on that being the case. In my experience communication between rural offices and Bkk HQ in any Ministry are weak and central level tends not to understand the level at which rural outposts operate/the need they have for crystal clear, simple, checklist-style guidance.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I guarantee you the multitude of upcountry offices will not all know and people will be turned away for lack of an Embassy letter unless some sort of notification goes out to them updating the list if acceptable documentation.

 

Not to mention, Immigration actually making some kind of public disclosure that tells all its customers exactly what documentation they need to provide to meet the monthly income standard sufficiently far in advance that they'll have a chance to actually comply with those requirements, whatever they end up being.

 

For example, if they were hypothetically going to accept 12 months of Thai bank book entries showing sufficient import of funds, they'd better time their enforcement of that sufficient to allow applicants to have the 12 month period to comply ahead of their next extension application.

 

Of course, that's assuming that Immigration actually INTENDS for there to be some kind of replacement/substitute for Embassy income letters -- a notion that we're all guessing about at this point AFAIK. They could also simply do nothing, continue to say no income letter no extension, and your only other option is the bank deposit method.

 

It's more than disappointing that all these weeks have passed since the British Embassy's original announcement and thus far no a public peep from Immigration and its new and ever publicity seeking commander.  How hard could that be???

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

The immigration law is non-specific as to means of proof.

 

There is an Immigration document in English listing required documentation for the income method which specifically states Embassy letter, and only Embassy letter. Presumably this emerged from some sort of internal Imm notice to local  Imm offices. This  is what needs to change. The Bangkok Office may know about the change but I guarantee you the multitude of upcountry offices will not all know and people will be turned away for lack of an Embassy letter unless some sort of notification goes out to them updating the list if acceptable documentation.

who says it needs to change ? has TI in Bangkok issued a statement to this effect or even hinted it will do so ? This is speculation as nobody on TV was at these meetings, all the other main embassies who were, with the exception of the US, appear to be singularly unimpressed if such a statement has been made.

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

 

Of course, that's assuming that Immigration actually INTENDS for there to be some kind of replacement/substitute for Embassy income letters -- a notion that we're all guessing about at this point AFAIK. They could also simply do nothing, continue to say no income letter no extension, and your only other option is the bank deposit method...

 

 

 

Yes -  because Bangkok Imm senior officials are likely utterly unaware that local Imm offices won't just automatically make intelligent adjustments in response to the absence of an Embassy letter.

 

The same people who told US and OZ officials (in effect) : "no problem, they can just show proof of the money coming into a Thai account" will likely not have realized the need to send out a circular with instructions to that effect. To them it is self evident what should be done in the absence of an Embassy letter. it will NOT be self evident to IOs up in Nakhon Nowhere and they will in most cases not "dare" to vary from their set routines without official instruction.

 

In addition even the central level officials - who unlike many of their rural counterparts actually understand the Imm law -- will   likely not  have considered the myriad permutations various retirees have mentioned (e.g. equivalent money coming in at intervals other than monthly - after all, many dividends pay out quarterly, not monthly; money being kept in a home country bank and withdrawn here by ATM because many Thai banks refuse to open bank accounts for retirees).

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

who says it needs to change ? has TI in Bangkok issued a statement to this effect or even hinted it will do so ? This is speculation as nobody on TV was at these meetings, all the other main embassies who were, with the exception of the US, appear to be singularly unimpressed if such a statement has been made.

No as far as we know. This is exactly what worries me. They apparently told US and UK officials that people could just show proof of income coming into a Thai bank but with no indication that they intended to give guidance to nationwide IOs to that effect.  It might not even occur to them that this would be necessary,

 

And the Embassies released their notification without checking to see if nationwide IOs had gotten any type of guidance. Liekly never occurred to them either.

 

My fear is that this is all based on central  level discussions that are out of touch with the practical realities of how the country's network of IOs operate.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

No as far as we know. This is exactly what worries me. They apparently told US and UK officials that people could just show proof of income coming into a Thai bank but with no indication that they intended to give guidance to nationwide IOs to that effect.  It might not even occur to them that this would be necessary,

If the change actually happens the Immigration Bureau will certainly issue a directive or more than likely a police order that all immigration offices will get. I have been checking the immigration website everyday for an announcement but nothing yet.,

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

No as far as we know. This is exactly what worries me. They apparently told US and UK officials that people could just show proof of income coming into a Thai bank but with no indication that they intended to give guidance to nationwide IOs to that effect.  It might not even occur to them that this would be necessary,

 

And the Embassies released their notification without checking to see if nationwide IOs had gotten any type of guidance. Liekly never occurred to them either.

 

My fear is that this is all based on central  level discussions that are out of touch with the practical realities of how the country's network of IOs operate.

 

 

''They apparently told.........''  says it all, they probably said nothing of the sort, the twisted interview with the BE lady was a show of general incompetence not a hint of things to come.

[Sheryl]

Bear in mind US Embassy website is saying the same thing. I think it unlikely both BR and US Embassy imagined this. I think they were indeed told something of the sort.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

My fear is that this is all based on central  level discussions that are out of touch with the practical realities of how the country's network of IOs operate.

I agree completely with you- the word will not filter down to every Imm Office and when people walk in without the letter- the IO  will not understand why.  As I mentioned Thai Imm is in no hurry to come up with any new system or guidance- in their mind- no hurry- everyone will have letters until mid year 2019. I am sure they haven't thought about new arrivals and  current extension holders who may not get the word or others who simply do not understand what is happening.

 

We have to be proactive- I have sent several messages to ACS US Embassy Bangkok and will continue.  I hope others do so and also send messages to BE.  Remember- both Embassies have indicated they will assist in the transition and be in touch with regional Thai Imm offices.  Keep reminding them- I plan to.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I agree completely with you- the word will not filter down to every Imm Office and when people walk in without the letter- the IO  will not understand why.  As I mentioned Thai Imm is in no hurry to come up with any new system or guidance- in their mind- no hurry- everyone will have letters until mid year 2019. I am sure they haven't thought about new arrivals and  current extension holders who may not get the word or others who simply do not understand what is happening.

 

We have to be proactive- I have sent several messages to ACS US Embassy Bangkok and will continue.  I hope others do so and also send messages to BE.  Remember- both Embassies have indicated they will assist in the transition and be in touch with regional Thai Imm offices.  Keep reminding them- I plan to.

555555 assist in the transition, sounds like the standard statement they put out when the has been a serious occurrence abroad involving a Brit,   '' We are assisting the family at this difficult time'' ie. we have sent them a list of English speaking lawyers.

[Jingthing]

That presupposes that they are taking action related to the 2 Embassy's  having stopped the letters and that the understand the need to send very specific, simple, clear guidance to all the IOs nationwide regarding a change in required docuemntation.
 
I would not bank on that being the case. In my experience communication between rural offices and Bkk HQ in any Ministry are weak and central level tends not to understand the level at which rural outposts operate/the need they have for crystal clear, simple, checklist-style guidance.
 
 

I'm not presuming anything. I'm just trying to throw cold water on trying too hard to read the tea leaves. I've been very clear TI isn't obligated to make any accommodations at all for the letter less and also that given what we know definitely now the safest option is to prepare for using the bank method in future. We'll know when we know. Not now.

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[steve73]

It's not just the local I/O's that need clear guidelines.

IF (and it's by no means certain exactly how this will work) the 65k/mon income method is acceptable, one assumes it would need a bank letter &/or official bank statement to support it, so the banks themselves will need to be informed exactly what is required. 

When I first did my extension using the savings method (8 years ago), my bank (a provincial city main branch) had no idea of what I needed, and had to contact head office in BKK to find out.. took most of the morning to sort out.  Subsequent years it was completed in around 15 minutes.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not presuming anything. I'm just trying to throw cold water on trying too hard to read the tea leaves. I've been very clear TI isn't obligated to make any accommodations at all for the letter less and also that given what we know definitely now the safest option is to prepare for using the bank method in future. We'll know when we know. Not now

I agree JT- but I am not letting the Embassy off the hook-  I cant go to the Commissioner of Thai Imm and make a case or make suggestions- but I can go to the US Embassy via email and  state the issues and that they need to assist people with the transition and be available to answer questions should  a citizen be sitting in an Imm office  and not have a letter and the officer keeps asking for it.

The 2 Embassies UK and Us decided they were stopping the letters- now they have to own it and I for one  will continue to send emails to them reminding them they  said they would assist in the transition. Whether they listen or not is another matter.

[malagateddy]

Re the 65000 a month..surely that gives you 780000 not 800000 annually?

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[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Re the 65000 a month..surely that gives you 780000 not 800000 annually?

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it is as it is Einstein

[Sheryl]

Re the 65000 a month..surely that gives you 780000 not 800000 annually?

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Yes. Add in the additional bank transfer fees (12 rather than 1) and pretty much same

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[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Re the 65000 a month..surely that gives you 780000 not 800000 annually?

When immigration changed it to 800k baht they rounded down the result of dividing it by 12 to 65k baht.

It is the opposite for extensions based upon marriage. It is 400k baht in the bank or 40k per month. That makes it 480k baht.

[malagateddy]

When immigration changed it to 800k baht they rounded down the result of dividing it by 12 to 65k baht.
It is the opposite for extensions based upon marriage. It is 400k baht in the bank or 40k per month. That makes it 480k baht.

Thanks for the info Sir..but if I was going for a retirement extension the way things are just now..think I would give any I.O. no reason to bin my application
Cheers

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[Daveyh]

The latest requirements by Thai Immigration, which will come into effect when all "Income Letters" from various embassies cease must surely affect many of us that have retired here & lived here for years ........... some expats in their late 70 & 80yrs will find this a bitter pill to swallow as they have made a permanent home here. Again, we see these embassies here in Thailand not protecting or even thinking about the consequences of their actions, especially the British & American Embassies, who should be doing their utmost to protect us. The well being & quality of life of their compatriots is paramount, but is simply not even considered & gone are the days when these embassies had any "clout" with their host nation. It's evident that no further dialogue is forthcoming & these embassies have left their "expats" hanging out to dry by allowing individuals to fend for themselves.

 

I expect some TV members will just "glibly" say "suck it up" etc. without the slightest consideration for those living on pensions, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have 800,000 Thai baht that they can leave languishing in a bank account here untouched for three months or more. You can blame these so called "Visa Agents" that still exist here for the latest rule changes due to all the scams & illegal methods that they've adopted over the years to obtain visas., especially the idiots that advertise on Facebook that you don't need to comply with Immigration rules! These are the people that need deporting not the genuine article living here on a pension. Now, the only people that will suffer the consequences are those that genuinely have enough pension each month to qualify for visas to retire here legally, but due to this recent change will be forced to leave when their visa expires. Most came when they were 60 'ish & now are well into their late 70's & 80"s ........ the rate of exchange was 74 baht/£ when they arrived, so they've taken some hard knocks along the way. This change will be dramatic for them, especially as they've stayed within the law for years & now find themselves alone, without help & stranded. It's appalling that these embassies are allowing this change to happen as they must realize the dire consequences of their actions to the less fortunate in their twilight years. This is a change that no one even considered as the rules have been firmly in place for years & I blame our embassies entirely for placing us in this position ............. they have let us down badly. The embassy is there to provide a proper consular service to everyone that needs it ............ I sometimes wonder why we have an embassy at all here with this latest fiasco.

 

Sadly, I can foresee many expats leaving here now as some will not want to have 800,000 Thai Baht languishing in an account here earning very little interest or are pensioners that do not have this to qualify for a Retirement Visa. Of those that do leave I expect them to move elsewhere in the region, especially Philippines for Brits as they have a reciprocal agreement with the UK regarding pensions etc, whereas here in Thailand they don't, it's not index linked ........ another £40+ per week (£160/mth) since their pensions were frozen here in 2003 would be most welcome for those able to move on there. No one I'm sure wishes to move back to the dampness, cold, miserable existence of Blighty ........ plus fish & chips in newspaper. I wish everyone well & good luck to those that find themselves in this appalling situation ........ blame your "limp wristed" governments for this. I suspect there are a lot of ex servicemen here affected by this .................. hence, this latest "balls up" by these spineless individuals representing our countries will come as no surprise. Time to move on I guess ............. fact.

 

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Daveyh said:

The latest requirements by Thai Immigration, which will come into effect when all "Income Letters" from various embassies cease must surely affect many of us that have retired here & lived here for years ........... some expats in their late 70 & 80yrs will find this a bitter pill to swallow as they have made a permanent home here. Again, we see these embassies here in Thailand not protecting or even thinking about the consequences of their actions, especially the British & American Embassies, who should be doing their utmost to protect us. The well being & quality of life of their compatriots is paramount, but is simply not even considered & gone are the days when these embassies had any "clout" with their host nation. It's evident that no further dialogue is forthcoming & these embassies have left their "expats" hanging out to dry by allowing individuals to fend for themselves.

 

I expect some TV members will just "glibly" say "suck it up" etc. without the slightest consideration for those living on pensions, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have 800,000 Thai baht that they can leave languishing in a bank account here untouched for three months or more. You can blame these so called "Visa Agents" that still exist here for the latest rule changes due to all the scams & illegal methods that they've adopted over the years to obtain visas., especially the idiots that advertise on Facebook that you don't need to comply with Immigration rules! These are the people that need deporting not the genuine article living here on a pension. Now, the only people that will suffer the consequences are those that genuinely have enough pension each month to qualify for visas to retire here legally, but due to this recent change will be forced to leave when their visa expires. Most came when they were 60 'ish & now are well into their late 70's & 80"s ........ the rate of exchange was 74 baht/£ when they arrived, so they've taken some hard knocks along the way. This change will be dramatic for them, especially as they've stayed within the law for years & now find themselves alone, without help & stranded. It's appalling that these embassies are allowing this change to happen as they must realize the dire consequences of their actions to the less fortunate in their twilight years. This is a change that no one even considered as the rules have been firmly in place for years & I blame our embassies entirely for placing us in this position ............. they have let us down badly. The embassy is there to provide a proper consular service to everyone that needs it ............ I sometimes wonder why we have an embassy at all here with this latest fiasco.

 

Sadly, I can foresee many expats leaving here now as some will not want to have 800,000 Thai Baht languishing in an account here earning very little interest or are pensioners that do not have this to qualify for a Retirement Visa. Of those that do leave I expect them to move elsewhere in the region, especially Philippines for Brits as they have a reciprocal agreement with the UK regarding pensions etc, whereas here in Thailand they don't, it's not index linked ........ another £40+ per week (£160/mth) since their pensions were frozen here in 2003 would be most welcome for those able to move on there. No one I'm sure wishes to move back to the dampness, cold, miserable existence of Blighty ........ plus fish & chips in newspaper. I wish everyone well & good luck to those that find themselves in this appalling situation ........ blame your "limp wristed" governments for this. I suspect there are a lot of ex servicemen here affected by this .................. hence, this latest "balls up" by these spineless individuals representing our countries will come as no surprise. Time to move on I guess ............. fact.

 

 

You described me fairly well though I am probably about 20,000 baht short of the 65,000 per month per year simply due to the forex rate. I am well within the 40,000 per month for a marriage visa.

 

My problem as a UK citizen is that the UK embassy does not give a rats rrrse about me and as my extension is not due for renewal until 23rd August so even if I tried for an embassy letter with a maximum 45 days ahead It still won't work for me.

 

Sure I can get the balance to make it up BUT without an embassy letter it won't work. In fact by that time I will have had a rise in my military pension, a rise in my company pension and with the new tax allowance in the budget I will only be a few thousand baht short of the monthly income.

 

So what will the UK embassy do for me next year?

 

Fark all.

 

But the UK government will still tax me.

 

Barstewards.

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

You described me fairly well though I am probably about 20,000 baht short of the 65,000 per month per year simply due to the forex rate. I am well within the 40,000 per month for a marriage visa.

 

My problem as a UK citizen is that the UK embassy does not give a rats rrrse about me and as my extension is not due for renewal until 23rd August so even if I tried for an embassy letter with a maximum 45 days ahead It still won't work for me.

 

Sure I can get the balance to make it up BUT without an embassy letter it won't work. In fact by that time I will have had a rise in my military pension, a rise in my company pension and with the new tax allowance in the budget I will only be a few thousand baht short of the monthly income.

 

So what will the UK embassy do for me next year?

 

Fark all.

 

But the UK government will still tax me.

 

Barstewards.

No need to get depressed, change always brings upheavals but things are seldom as bad as they appear at first. We need clarity before we can plan, without clarity we are corn between the millstones of TI and BE. I get well over the required sum needed for the extension but I too don't know which direction to take, should I use transferwise each month to deposit the sum in a Thai account ? use the ATM method ? rely on the German embassy continuing to issue the letter as they said they would ? Will IO continue to accept it ? We are being kept in the dark. It would help if we knew what was discussed at the May meeting, what were the real demands of TI, why the drastic action of the BE and US, why wait until now with the announcement and not in May, why haven't all other embassies followed suit, it could even be that this was an over reaction from the two embassies and things will return as they were. The silence from both sides of the spectrum shows, I think, that as of yet nothing has been written in stone, the BE and US may have jumped the gun.

[soalbundy]

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Bear in mind US Embassy website is saying the same thing. I think it unlikely both BR and US Embassy imagined this. I think they were indeed told something of the sort.

That just isn't good enough, they could both be reading the rules and regulations regarding showing proof of income but ignoring or not finding the interim order regarding the embassy letter which probably came about because many foreigners at that time weren't able to open a Thai account. Neither the BE or the US says ''we have been specifically told that there will be a change in the system of verification, they only repeat the vague regulations regarding proof of income while ignoring the recognized practice of the IO. 

[anon537687643]

No need to get depressed, change always brings upheavals but things are seldom as bad as they appear at first. We need clarity before we can plan, without clarity we are corn between the millstones of TI and BE. I get well over the required sum needed for the extension but I too don't know which direction to take, should I use transferwise each month to deposit the sum in a Thai account ? use the ATM method ? rely on the German embassy continuing to issue the letter as they said they would ? Will IO continue to accept it ? We are being kept in the dark. It would help if we knew what was discussed at the May meeting, what were the real demands of TI, why the drastic action of the BE and US, why wait until now with the announcement and not in May, why haven't all other embassies followed suit, it could even be that this was an over reaction from the two embassies and things will return as they were. The silence from both sides of the spectrum shows, I think, that as of yet nothing has been written in stone, the BE and US may have jumped the gun.

It’s “written in stone “ in the form of a notice ! NOT Issuing proof of pension income !


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