Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[sambum]

On 10/22/2018 at 6:26 PM, billd766 said:

I didn't believe it when he said it in the first place and nothing has changed my opinion so far.

Isn't it interesting that the longer people are here the more disillusioned they seem to become re the services provided by the British Embassy? Just as a guideline, with only one exception, all replies to my original post re Brian Davidson's 2017 speech have posted on here thousands of times, which would imply that they are "long timers"! 

[sambum]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:08 PM, bigginhill said:

So we have ;

USA stat decs

Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Luxembourgers  income letters

Italy accepts state pension certificate (maybe tax return where all incomes are listed) 

Can anyone add anything? would help when complaining to compare the services and solutions of all other Embassies.

 

"would help when complaining to compare the services and solutions of all other Embassies."

 

Bit of a large unnecessary task in my opinion. As far as I can see, the only Embassy that I know of that needs a "solution" is the British Embassy - everybody else's systems seem to work fine!

[Sheryl]

According to this new thread, Bangkok Immigration at least will no longer accept letters from US Embassy either

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1064713-usa-income-affidavit/

 

I think what we are going to see (with of course the usual variation in interpretations across Imm Offices) is no longer accepting/requiring Embassy letters either at all or from those countries which do not verify income.

 

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, sambum said:

Isn't it interesting that the longer people are here the more disillusioned they seem to become re the services provided by the British Embassy? Just as a guideline, with only one exception, all replies to my original post re Brian Davidson's 2017 speech have posted on here thousands of times, which would imply that they are "long timers"! 

I first arrived in 1993 for working. back in 94 to 97 when I left my UK wife for my Thai lady. I spent my off work time here and finally moved to Thailand in 2001.

 

In the 90s the embassy wasn't too bad apart from one very obnoxious woman who is long gone. Back then you could actually visit the embassy and many of the staff were helpful. Over the years however the staff numbers have gone down, the UK staff quality has gone down, the actual embassy has downsized and the service, what there is of it has sadly gone down faster.

 

Having said that the Thai staff that I have dealt with in the past 3 or 4 years have always been helpful and friendly.

 

If you are rich or a business man then the embassy will help you. If you are not then you are basically regarded as a pest or a nuisance and the embassy doesn't want to know you. I believe that this attitude comes from the FCO in the UK.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

According to this new thread, Bangkok Immigration at least will no longer accept letters from US Embassy either

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1064713-usa-income-affidavit/

 

I think what we are going to see (with of course the usual variation in interpretations across Imm Offices) is no longer accepting/requiring Embassy letters either at all or from those countries which do not verify income.

 

 

Iread that thread and an early post #16 from UbonJoe said that he does not believe it until he sees it in writing from the Immigration Dept.

 

I tend to look on him as a guru and probably the most informed person on TVF about anything to do with Thai Immigration. I started following him probably 8 years ago and he has not let me down yet..

[luckyluke]

18 minutes ago, billd766 said:

sees it in writing from the Immigration Dept.

Seeing is believing. 

[totally thaied up]

25 minutes ago, billd766 said:

read that thread and an early post #16 from UbonJoe said that he does not believe it until he sees it in writing from the Immigration Dept.

 

I tend to look on him as a guru and probably the most informed person on TVF about anything to do with Thai Immigration. I started following him probably 8 years ago and he has not let me down yet..

I agree with you on UbonJoe. Still, they started throwing stuff around in Chiang Mai a while back and with this today, they may be just using this all as a sounding board. Things are changing a lot in this country. Until I see it in writing, much the same for me. 

 

Been here for almost ten years. I have a bolthole to go too if things go South. Nothing now really on offer for me as a married man those other countries offer. No way for PR, no way for a health system I can afford after 75, yet I spend a lot of money here. I can buy a house in an outback town in Australia for not much and live on the same amount of money. Thai politics do not see me as a help at all for my Thai family (we have six in our family) and I just am burning money for really no return. This will never change I feel because of all the reasons we know. Australia has much more to offer now I hate to say and for me, that is a sad day. I am here now just for my wife's elderly Mum and Dad. They will not be here forever and if they keep ostracising those of us that do make a difference to there own people as in never accepting us, it is a sad state of affairs really. 

 

If these income streams/Stat Decs/Income Affidavits change for all Nationalities, I think the average joe will look elsewhere. 

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

According to this new thread, Bangkok Immigration at least will no longer accept letters from US Embassy either

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1064713-usa-income-affidavit/

 

I think what we are going to see (with of course the usual variation in interpretations across Imm Offices) is no longer accepting/requiring Embassy letters either at all or from those countries which do not verify income.

 

 

If it indeed turns out to be true, I've seen no evidence of ANY embassy being able to verify income!

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, HHTel said:

If it indeed turns out to be true, I've seen no evidence of ANY embassy being able to verify income!

It all depends on the semantics of "verify income". To me, the British Embassy does verify my income. They verify it by examining my P60, 3 months bank statements and a pension payslip. They are verifying my income not verifying the documents that I provide to verify my income.

[Esso49]

11 minutes ago, HHTel said:

If it indeed turns out to be true, I've seen no evidence of ANY embassy being able to verify income!

Yes that appears to be the case.  It is clearly a monumental task for embassies to undertake document authenticity verification themselves and up until now they have taken the easy ride to maximise their income.   However, and I will use the British Embassy as an example,  if UK documents with respect to say pensions are notarized by a UK notary Public prior to presenting to the British Embassy in Bangkok then surely they could state that the information supplied by XYZ have been notarised as a true statement of income on the certification of income letter ?   That would provide the Thai authorities with the statement required and also allow the BE to knowingly state the the documentation presented to them was 100% actual.

[Spidey]

3 hours ago, sambum said:

"would help when complaining to compare the services and solutions of all other Embassies."

 

Bit of a large unnecessary task in my opinion. As far as I can see, the only Embassy that I know of that needs a "solution" is the British Embassy - everybody else's systems seem to work fine!

The decision was not made by the British Embassy according to the consular official interviewed on the radio. She maintained that it was as a result of an audit which the FCO in London responded to by ordering the cessation of the letters. She didn't say much that was true but this I believe to be true.

[Spidey]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:24 PM, HHTel said:

The problem as I see it is that TI are looking for verification because as we all know, documents can be easily forged (even bank statements).

 

Have a wander down Kao San Road and you will see realistic 'copies' of various documents from ID cards to University Degrees.

If I could show you the original copy of my P60 which I send to the british Embassy every year, I think that you would agree that it would be far from easy to forge. Certainly well beyond the capabilities of the cowboys on Kao San Road!

[billd766]

2 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

I agree with you on UbonJoe. Still, they started throwing stuff around in Chiang Mai a while back and with this today, they may be just using this all as a sounding board. Things are changing a lot in this country. Until I see it in writing, much the same for me. 

 

Been here for almost ten years. I have a bolthole to go too if things go South. Nothing now really on offer for me as a married man those other countries offer. No way for PR, no way for a health system I can afford after 75, yet I spend a lot of money here. I can buy a house in an outback town in Australia for not much and live on the same amount of money. Thai politics do not see me as a help at all for my Thai family (we have six in our family) and I just am burning money for really no return. This will never change I feel because of all the reasons we know. Australia has much more to offer now I hate to say and for me, that is a sad day. I am here now just for my wife's elderly Mum and Dad. They will not be here forever and if they keep ostracising those of us that do make a difference to there own people as in never accepting us, it is a sad state of affairs really. 

 

If these income streams/Stat Decs/Income Affidavits change for all Nationalities, I think the average joe will look elsewhere. 

I am here with my wife and son.

 

She has 3 brothers, 2 have families and 1 not.

 

I am certainly more comfortable here than I would be back in the UK where I have my son, DIL and 2 grandchildren who I have never seen, some good friends and an ex wife. My wife would not really want to live in the UK and neither would I as I have nothing left there.

I could, if push comes to shove go back on my own but that would mean splitting up the family which is something that I really don't want to do.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

If I could show you the original copy of my P60 which I send to the british Embassy every year, I think that you would agree that it would be far from easy to forge. Certainly well beyond the capabilities of the cowboys on Kao San Road!

That said, there is no P60 for my State pension as it is under the tax threshold though I do get a P60 for my other 2 pensions.

[sambum]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I am here with my wife and son.

 

She has 3 brothers, 2 have families and 1 not.

 

I am certainly more comfortable here than I would be back in the UK where I have my son, DIL and 2 grandchildren who I have never seen, some good friends and an ex wife. My wife would not really want to live in the UK and neither would I as I have nothing left there.

I could, if push comes to shove go back on my own but that would mean splitting up the family which is something that I really don't want to do.

Same, same but different!

 

[sambum]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

The decision was not made by the British Embassy according to the consular official interviewed on the radio. She maintained that it was as a result of an audit which the FCO in London responded to by ordering the cessation of the letters. She didn't say much that was true but this I believe to be true.

So it's a cost saving exercise?

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, sambum said:

So it's a cost saving exercise?

Or an audit of processes as to whether they comply.

Edited October 24, 2018 by SheungWan

[sambum]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Or an audit of processes as to whether they comply.

Which is usually to find out where they can cut costs! (Sorry - you added "as to whether they comply" later, but my post still applies!)

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by sambum

[blackhorse]

Get over it folks. This "crack down" like all crackdowns is over.
The only idiot who bought into it is the BE ambassador

[Spidey]

6 hours ago, sambum said:

So it's a cost saving exercise?

From my viewpoint, it would appear so. Shortly moving to a new smaller embassy, the removal of the income letter facility means that they require less office space and less Thai support staff.

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, blackhorse said:

Get over it folks. This "crack down" like all crackdowns is over.
The only idiot who bought into it is the BE ambassador

The Ambassador didn't buy into it, orders from above, ie FCO.

 

I firmly believe that the BE "bought into it" as it suited their needs, i.e. cost and space saving.

 

Everyone knows how it works in Thailand, when there's a crackdown, keep your head down and soldier on until it blows over, ask any bar owner. Every other embassy appears to be doing this except the BE. Clearly they have an ulterior motive.

[soalbundy]

10 hours ago, HHTel said:

If it indeed turns out to be true, I've seen no evidence of ANY embassy being able to verify income!

In a way they can, each embassy knows and can read the official documents presented to them, they know best their own system of pensions and other annuities. It would be far easier to hoodwink a translation bureau than an embassy. Documents from the French, Dutch, German embassies would all have to be translated into English and/or Thai for a JP to be able to read them and he can't verify them either. If they go the way of an affidavit at the embassy, which BE won't do, then it's just the same as a letter with bells on, who's going to check? nobody, at least with the letter system your documents are scrutinized by the embassy.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

From my viewpoint, it would appear so. Shortly moving to a new smaller embassy, the removal of the income letter facility means that they require less office space and less Thai support staff.

Or, for those thinking about the process itself rather than the surrounding stuff, there was a consideration of the implications of financial auditing.

Edited October 25, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Esso49 said:

Yes that appears to be the case.  It is clearly a monumental task for embassies to undertake document authenticity verification themselves and up until now they have taken the easy ride to maximise their income.   However, and I will use the British Embassy as an example,  if UK documents with respect to say pensions are notarized by a UK notary Public prior to presenting to the British Embassy in Bangkok then surely they could state that the information supplied by XYZ have been notarised as a true statement of income on the certification of income letter ?   That would provide the Thai authorities with the statement required and also allow the BE to knowingly state the the documentation presented to them was 100% actual.

Notarization in the UK is headache enough, so how is that going to work organising the process from Thailand?

Edited October 24, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Spidey said:

If I could show you the original copy of my P60 which I send to the british Embassy every year, I think that you would agree that it would be far from easy to forge. Certainly well beyond the capabilities of the cowboys on Kao San Road!

What is the point of a P60 if the visa extension requirement is specifically focussed on the 65,000 baht per month equiv. coming in?

Edited October 25, 2018 by SheungWan

[Spidey]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Or an audit of processes as to whether they comply.

 

27 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Or, for those thinking about the process itself rather than the surrounding stuff, there was a consideration of the implications of financial auditing.

Then why is no other embassy going down the same route as the BE, particularly those requiring far less evidence than the BE? e.g. US Embassy.

 

Are you saying that other embassies are incapable of "thinking about the process?

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

What is the point of a P60 if the visa extension requirement is specifically focussed on the 65,000 baht per month equiv. coming in?

If you look at the application form produced by the BE, it asks for your total annual income. This is what a P60 shows. Divide by 12, which is what you do on the form, and it gives you monthly income.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

 

Then why is no other embassy going down the same route as the BE, particularly those requiring far less evidence than the BE? e.g. US Embassy.

 

Are you saying that other embassies are incapable of "thinking about the process?

The others are sensible enough not to rock the boat, if it isn't broken stop repairing it. This whole verification thing is a compromise between what is required and what is achievable, the BE knows that, there is an ulterior motive for suddenly becoming 'holier than thou'

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

If you look at the application form produced by the BE, it asks for your total annual income. This is what a P60 shows. Divide by 12, which is what you do on the form, and it gives you monthly income.

Well if that is the case, then the P60 on its own should be enough as a standardized requirement?

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The others are sensible enough not to rock the boat, if it isn't broken stop repairing it. This whole verification thing is a compromise between what is required and what is achievable, the BE knows that, there is an ulterior motive for suddenly becoming 'holier than thou'

I don't think it is a holier than thou, but rather a review of financial auditing processes which has been the result of tightening up in these areas. The Letter is probably just one fallout from process tightening. The process is now considered broken. Whether it can be satisfied moving forwards is the question. Just accusing the BE of cost cutting I think misses the point.

Edited October 25, 2018 by SheungWan