Thai Airways investigate "deadhead pilot" delay drama

[kkerry]

5 minutes ago, Cereal said:

I think especially in this case as it was only a single pilot, the original pilot expected to fly had an issue: illness, accident, injury... thus the DH pilot was probably called at the last possible moment. He or she may have just returned from a workout at the gym, a 4 hour hike...whatever, and could be tired already. He or she may have been on reserve and at the very end of the potential calling period.

Except every report says there were two off duty pilots... 

[scorecard]

6 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Let me fill some of you in on what this story is about and why it happened from the perspective of a person who worked as a cabin crew member (flight attendant or FA) for 10 years for an international long haul carrier.

 

1) A deadhead crew member is on duty. It is quite possible they will be expected to work shortly, or at times, almost immediately after arrival.

2) Very often, I think especially in this case as it was only a single pilot, the original pilot expected to fly had an issue: illness, accident, injury... thus the DH pilot was probably called at the last possible moment. He or she may have just returned from a workout at the gym, a 4 hour hike...whatever, and could be tired already. He or she may have been on reserve and at the very end of the potential calling period.

3) Because DH crew members are on duty, they are considered to be working that is why it is SOP (standard operating procedure) for them to be in uniform.

4) It is SOP in collective bargaining agreements that if you are DH'ing you sit in business class. The reasoning for this was mentioned above. The DH'ing crew member may be scheduled to work/fly as soon as they arrive therefore it is imperative they are as comfortable as possible and able to sleep/rest during the DH period.

5) It's also important to note that a DH'ing crew member can be called into service on the flight they are DH'ing on if they are qualified on that aircraft. FA's are qualified on every aircraft type an airline flies, pilots usually 1 aircraft type - the one they fly, although they may have been and may still be qualified to fly other aircraft types if they have recently moved to a different aircraft due to promotion

6) Because a DH'ing crew member is on duty and will start a workday upon arrival, it is clear and obvious why they take precedence over a passenger. This is because the pilot (for example) may be a long haul heavy wide body pilot and it is more cost effective to the airline to accommodate 1 passenger who is disrupted than potentially cancel a flight and have to accommodate 300 or more passengers on the other end.

7) DH'ing is absolutely normal. I've done it countless times. DH'ing counts as duty hours not flying hours.

example: Cereal at home in Vancouver. Crew scheduling calls. Cereal, we need you to DH to Tokyo, you'll have a 3 hour wait in Narita then you'll pick up flight 111 and return to YVR okay. You're on duty in 90 minutes, your flight leaves in 2 hours.

???? Everything this airline did sounds to me like it was exactly as it should have been done.

It ain't all that glamorous a gig when you've done it. That's why I don't do it anymore!

 

Thanks for the background lesson.

 

You wrote "Everything this airline did sounds to me like it was exactly as it should have been done...'

 

But earlier in your post you mentioned that it's SOP that deadhead pilots fly in business class.

 

But in this incident they refused t take available business seats.

 

Seems to be conflicting.

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by scorecard

[Knowsitlike]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

Where does it say, in the story, they were asked to move to a different area in business class?

https://mgronline.com/onlinesection/detail/9610000104381

 

Not sure you can read this but this memo at the bottom from TG says they were offered and moved to other business seats (16A/B), these are upstairs on the 744, again they did not buy First Class but were lucky to have been assigned those or there was a mistake that was later fixed on the flight- not done in the best way of course

[kannot]

50 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I won’t fly with them anymore after couple of experiences. 

 

Though to be honest, I also won’t fly Ryan air for the same reasons. 

A lot of companies now are living of their "reputations" when it comes to service, I used Emirates for about 5  years and watched the service slide down from good  to "bleeding  awful"

Mailed them many times about it and got the brush off, Business and First Class,

I switched to smaller airlines to see how they were and to be honest the price drop from Emirates made up for the slightly older planes and service was the same or better.

Notable was Sri lankan Airlines who were very  good and Colombo airport was very nice and small unlike Dubais sprawling  masses.

Currently in the Uk flew Turkish, ridiculously cheap Business   class flight £1440 return, lie flat beds, food was so so service "ok" nothing special.

First is being dropped by many carriers now is just aint worth the price difference between business.

A lot depends on the crew of course but then thats depends on management.

[Cereal]

16 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Thanks for the background lesson.

 

You wrote "Everything this airline did sounds to me like it was exactly as it should have been done...'

 

But earlier in your post you mentioned that it's SOP that deadhead pilots fly in business class.

 

But in this incident they refused t take available business seats.

 

Seems to be conflicting.

I don't know why but my first guess would be something in the pilots' collective agreement with the airline. What that is, is anyone's guess. The pilot in question would have had something backing up his decision to refuse a business class seat I am certain.

 

It could be something as simple as "the DH'ing pilot can sit in the highest level class the aircraft has to offer" and the aircraft may have had, economy, business, business first, first, executive class seats..and they didn't want to disturb one of the more expensive seat sitters and asked him to take a business class seat. But, who knows. There is a reason though, to be sure.

16 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

 

 

 

[Bluespunk]

10 minutes ago, Knowsitlike said:

https://mgronline.com/onlinesection/detail/9610000104381

 

Not sure you can read this but this memo at the bottom from TG says they were offered and moved to other business seats (16A/B), these are upstairs on the 744, again they did not buy First Class but were lucky to have been assigned those or there was a mistake that was later fixed on the flight- not done in the best way of course

If they were simply being moved from one business class seat to another, then those kicking off were being churlish. 

 

Now, if it was from business to economy, that’s a different matter.

 

I wouldn’t want to move either. 

 

I cannot stand economy and only fly business. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Bluespunk
Spelling and paragraphing

[Cereal]

23 minutes ago, kkerry said:

Except every report says there were two off duty pilots... 

Very often in a collective bargaining agreement there is language which says "the most senior off duty pilot/FA will be offered the opportunity to work, if they decline the next in line will be offered the work. This will continue to happen until the work is accepted or the most junior off duty person is called and they must accept the work".

 

This may be the answer. When I was a senior FA I used to bid to be "on reserve" which means on call, for events like this or others. I refused everything I was offered, always. I even called crew scheduling and told them not to bother calling me unless I was the most junior person on the list, save them time. They appreciated it. 

 

I would go months at times without ever seeing the inside of an airplane, going for a couple or 3 weeks was normal.

 

Of course, this didn't affect my pay. I was on call, after all, which means on duty. I just wasn't flying.

[Bangkok Barry]

22 hours ago, blackhorse said:

22 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

With 1st class full, were the majority RTA travellers? .....apparently, there were Business seats available but of course, that's never going to be good enough for Thai Air pilots.
Be interesting if further details come out.

Of course it wouldn't good enough for any pilot if they need proper sleep.

That's the airline's problem. To mistreat premium fare passengers, the very people the airline needs to attract, is beyond belief.

[MikeN]

22 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Let me fill some of you in on what this story is about and why it happened from the perspective of a person who worked as a cabin crew member (flight attendant or FA) for 10 years for an international long haul carrier.

 

1) A deadhead crew member is on duty. It is quite possible they will be expected to work shortly, or at times, almost immediately after arrival.

2) Very often, I think especially in this case as it was only a single pilot, 

7) DH'ing is absolutely normal. I've done it countless times. DH'ing counts as duty hours not flying hours.

example: Cereal at home in Vancouver. Crew scheduling calls. Cereal, we need you to DH to Tokyo, you'll have a 3 hour wait in Narita then you'll pick up flight 111 and return to YVR okay. You're on duty in 90 minutes, your flight leaves in 2 hours.

1 Nobody can be completely rested after a long distance flight even in first class so I would not be comfortable with that pilot taking off at the controls of another flight immediately after arrival. Get some sleep in a proper bed first !

2. It was not just one pilot.

3. In your hypothetical case, the airline knew at least 15 hours in advance of your takeoff from Japan ( called you 2 hours before your flight to japan, + 10 ? hour flight time +3 hours at Narita) so presumably they knew to save you a seat outbound and would not have filled the plane ? Why did Thai Air not do the same ?

[scorecard]

32 minutes ago, kkerry said:

Except every report says there were two off duty pilots... 

And what does 'just come from the gym' mean?

 

Does that mean there's some additional special planning  dispensation or whatever because 'just come from the gym?

 

 

[Cereal]

1 minute ago, MikeN said:

1 Nobody can be completely rested after a long distance flight even in first class so I would not be comfortable with that pilot taking off at the controls of another flight immediately after arrival. Get some sleep in a proper bed first !

2. It was not just one pilot.

3. In your hypothetical case, the airline knew at least 15 hours in advance of your takeoff from Japan ( called you 2 hours before your flight to japan, + 10 ? hour flight time +3 hours at Narita) so presumably they knew to save you a seat outbound and would not have filled the plane ? Why did Thai Air not do the same ?

Dude, you don't understand the airline business. Everybody is tired all the time. Do you have any idea what it's like to live your live never quite in your own time zone? Being tired is part of the job.

 

Also, every airline I know of, but certainly not all, oversell their aircraft. Sometimes by as much as 10-20%. This is to cover no-shows and waiting list passengers. Airlines would rather fill an airplane and kick someone off every time. It's more cost effective in the long run.

[Cereal]

2 minutes ago, scorecard said:

And what does 'just come from the gym' mean?

 

Does that mean there's some additional special planning  dispensation or whatever because 'just come from the gym?

 

 

It means exactly what it means. Your response is absurd and argumentative and a strawman argument.

[mlkik]

1 hour ago, starky said:

Where did you get that from? Source please. Apparently there may have been business class seats available. So you got the inside running just post a link

I watch Thai news on the TV and this story has been on many of the channels. I prefer to listen to the news in Thai because it can get twisted when translated into English and posted on the net.

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Dude, you don't understand the airline business. Everybody is tired all the time. Do you have any idea what it's like to live your live never quite in your own time zone? Being tired is part of the job.

 

Also, every airline I know of, but certainly not all, oversell their aircraft. Sometimes by as much as 10-20%. This is to cover no-shows and waiting list passengers. Airlines would rather fill an airplane and kick someone off every time. It's more cost effective in the long run.

Most folks who fly know all of that,

 

Many many folks have work which involves hard work, tiredness, serious decision making nad more, it's not only airline staff.

 

But what's any of that got to do with this specific case? 

 

And would you or anybody expect that if you have paid hundreds of thousands of Baht for first class you will be shielded from bumping and whatever? 

 

Given this incident how many first and business travelers will now avoid this specific airline? 

 

 

 

 

[MikeN]

3 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Dude, you don't understand the airline business.

It's more cost effective in the long run.

Cost effective ? After you spent months on full pay by deliberately gaming the system :

”

I would go months at times without ever seeing the inside of an airplane, going for a couple or 3 weeks was normal.

 

Of course, this didn't affect my pay. I was on call, after all, which means on duty. I just wasn't flying  “

No dude, now we understand why airfares are so expensive, paying for free loading bludgers to do nothing.

 And people operating public transport, be it busses or planes, should not be working while they are tired.

[scorecard]

29 minutes ago, Cereal said:

I don't know why but my first guess would be something in the pilots' collective agreement with the airline. What that is, is anyone's guess. The pilot in question would have had something backing up his decision to refuse a business class seat I am certain.

 

It could be something as simple as "the DH'ing pilot can sit in the highest level class the aircraft has to offer" and the aircraft may have had, economy, business, business first, first, executive class seats..and they didn't want to disturb one of the more expensive seat sitters and asked him to take a business class seat. But, who knows. There is a reason though, to be sure.

 

And no comment on the other passengers, and what effect an incident like this has on passengers.

 

But I just wonder if Thai pilots have an attitude easy to find in Thailand 'lookcar mai samkarn - customers are not important'. Having personally experiences many highly unsatisfactory flights on this airline (because it was my company fixed policy to support the airline of the place where you are posted) nothing would surprise me.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by scorecard

[seancbk]

22 hours ago, manarak said:

the "must fly" argument has no weight if seats were available in business.

"first class" is first, it's not like business where sometimes people get upgraded to from tourist.

 

if seats were available in business, there has been a failure in leadership/decision-making.

 

I read that the two passengers in first who were asked to go to Business had been upgraded for free from Business to First in the first place.  They should have simply returned to their original business class seats.  The pilot couldn't depart whilst they were arguing and he couldn't depart without the 2 'deadhead' pilots as doing so would introduce serious delays for the flights they were being delivered to.

It simply come down to 2 passengers not wanting to give up a free First Class upgrade.  

 

[Knowsitlike]

Once again, there is no first class sold on that route. But if they fly that plane then they fill the first section by putting business class passengers in but aside from seat itself then all services meals etc are the same as business. These people were moving from those seats rows 1-3 to usual business seats but this has nothing to do with the fare paid for their tickets etc

[lumply]

The two pilots who were on a deadhead flight were presumably a Captain and the other a Snr First officer with a long haul flight ahead of them. Their off duty rest time would have necessitated good quality rest/sleep before flying their next working leg. Aviation law dictates as much. I am with all the pilots on this one. The Commander of an airline transport operater has ultimate authority over the operation of a flight by international law

[scorecard]

30 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

I read that the two passengers in first who were asked to go to Business had been upgraded for free from Business to First in the first place.  They should have simply returned to their original business class seats.  The pilot couldn't depart whilst they were arguing and he couldn't depart without the 2 'deadhead' pilots as doing so would introduce serious delays for the flights they were being delivered to.

It simply come down to 2 passengers not wanting to give up a free First Class upgrade.  

 

 I've followed this story (because of curiosity, I have a quite negative attitude to this airline from a number of previous experiences).

 

Back to the story, there are several reports that there was a number of vacant seats in business class so why would any business class passengers be upgraded to first?

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by scorecard

[Cereal]

23 minutes ago, MikeN said:

Cost effective ? After you spent months on full pay by deliberately gaming the system :

”

I would go months at times without ever seeing the inside of an airplane, going for a couple or 3 weeks was normal.

 

Of course, this didn't affect my pay. I was on call, after all, which means on duty. I just wasn't flying  “

No dude, now we understand why airfares are so expensive, paying for free loading bludgers to do nothing.

 And people operating public transport, be it busses or planes, should not be working while they are tired.

Dude, who doesn't take advantage of a system? You're dumb not to. And airfares are expensive for many reasons, employee salaries and fuel being numbers 1 and 2. However, most airlines have 10% of their flight crews on call every day. That's SOP to cover stuff just like this. People on call are not freeloaders, man. Can't you understand that? They're on call. It's not like they can go out boozing with the boys. They gotta be ready to go to work. When I was on call we had a 2 hour window to show up and punch in from the time we received a call when we had to go.

 

The bottom line here is this: If you haven't done the job you don't understand the job. That is it. That is all.

 

Not sure what a bludger is. I think it's the thing quidditch players hit in Harry Potter novels.

[scorecard]

11 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Dude, who doesn't take advantage of a system? You're dumb not to. And airfares are expensive for many reasons, employee salaries and fuel being numbers 1 and 2. However, most airlines have 10% of their flight crews on call every day. That's SOP to cover stuff just like this. People on call are not freeloaders, man. Can't you understand that? They're on call. It's not like they can go out boozing with the boys. They gotta be ready to go to work. When I was on call we had a 2 hour window to show up and punch in from the time we received a call when we had to go.

 

The bottom line here is this: If you haven't done the job you don't understand the job. That is it. That is all.

 

Not sure what a bludger is. I think it's the thing quidditch players hit in Harry Potter novels.

 

So another lecture, and as said before most of this is already well known to passengers (CUSTOMERS).

 

And doesn't change the fact that this incident is a disgrace to both Thai Airways and it's less than intelligent aircrew. 

 

If Thai does have a policy that deadhead crew are entitled to first class, and to be honest that wouldn't surprise me, given that cabin crew on the same airline after 5 years service can continuously refuse their schedule (I went to Paris last year besides it's a bit cold this time of the year, no thanks give me a another flight/route, I prefer xxxx xxxx, then would it not be sensible to accept the business seats and lodge a complaint the next day, rather then cause an incident and upset customers who pay big money?

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by scorecard

[metisdead]

An off topic post and a reply has been removed. 

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, Knowsitlike said:

Once again, there is no first class sold on that route. But if they fly that plane then they fill the first section by putting business class passengers in but aside from seat itself then all services meals etc are the same as business. These people were moving from those seats rows 1-3 to usual business seats but this has nothing to do with the fare paid for their tickets etc

- So how can passengers be upgraded to first class?

 

- Does that mean there are no first class seats / no first class section? Or they just leave the seats there but don't try to sell these seats? Or sell them as business class?

 

[Knowsitlike]

12 minutes ago, scorecard said:

- So how can passengers be upgraded to first class?

 

- Does that mean there are no first class seats / no first class section? Or they just leave the seats there but don't try to sell these seats? Or sell them as business class?

 

- they can’t be upgraded as there is no First Class fare to be upgraded to

 

- there are first class seats on this particular 747 plane (they usually fly 777), and as above then they are considered part of the business class section for this flight, of course people can try to check in on those specific seats if they can (and are not blocked by TG) as they are abit larger but it is still business class for all purposes

 

What went wrong is with the blocking of those seats for the pilots, usually in advance they would have done this and the paying passengers would have been sat happy in normal business seats completely unaware there was another option

[scorecard]

18 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Dude, who doesn't take advantage of a system? You're dumb not to. And airfares are expensive for many reasons, employee salaries and fuel being numbers 1 and 2. However, most airlines have 10% of their flight crews on call every day. That's SOP to cover stuff just like this. People on call are not freeloaders, man. Can't you understand that? They're on call. It's not like they can go out boozing with the boys. They gotta be ready to go to work. When I was on call we had a 2 hour window to show up and punch in from the time we received a call when we had to go.

 

The bottom line here is this: If you haven't done the job you don't understand the job. That is it. That is all.

 

Not sure what a bludger is. I think it's the thing quidditch players hit in Harry Potter novels.

www.yourdictionary.com › Dictionary Definitions › bludger

1.  

Noun. (plural bludgers). (Australia, New Zealand, slang, derogatory) A person who avoids working, or doing their share of work, a loafer, a hanger-on, one who ...

[kkerry]

10 minutes ago, Cereal said:

Dude, who doesn't take advantage of a system? You're dumb not to. And airfares are expensive for many reasons, employee salaries and fuel being numbers 1 and 2. However, most airlines have 10% of their flight crews on call every day. That's SOP to cover stuff just like this. People on call are not freeloaders, man. Can't you understand that? They're on call. It's not like they can go out boozing with the boys. They gotta be ready to go to work. When I was on call we had a 2 hour window to show up and punch in from the time we received a call when we had to go.

 

The bottom line here is this: If you haven't done the job you don't understand the job. That is it. That is all.

 

Not sure what a bludger is. I think it's the thing quidditch players hit in Harry Potter novels.

 

 

While it would be obviously concerning being a passenger on a flight with a pilot who isn't properly rested, I think more worrying would be a flight captain who calls everyone dude... ???? unless of course you're Captain Dave...

 

 

 

[malibukid]

hate this airline, they offered no assistance to me when disabled after surgery in the U.S. recently. hope they go bankrupt. pathetic service and no compensation offered, typical.  they never replied to my complaint.

Edited October 20, 2018 by malibukid

[seancbk]

46 minutes ago, scorecard said:

1 hour ago, Knowsitlike said:

Once again, there is no first class sold on that route. But if they fly that plane then they fill the first section by putting business class passengers in but aside from seat itself then all services meals etc are the same as business. These people were moving from those seats rows 1-3 to usual business seats but this has nothing to do with the fare paid for their tickets etc

- So how can passengers be upgraded to first class?

 

- Does that mean there are no first class seats / no first class section? Or they just leave the seats there but don't try to sell these seats? Or sell them as business class?

 

There is a First Class cabin on the aircraft, but apparently there isn't a First Class Service offered on that route so First Class Fares are not sold.  At least that is what I understood from Knowsitlike's comments (see above).

 

[khunPer]

On 10/19/2018 at 9:19 AM, starky said:

So if the site they are quoting is correct a "deadhead" must fly? Once that question is properly established we can argue where they should have been sat. Then obviously can they not sit in business? But besides all that good on the pilots for sticking by their brothers. There's a lot more that need to be explained here for mine.

The "deadheads" were probably not heading direct for service – that would be after 10-11 hours flight time, and impossible due to both fatigue level and legal regulations – they were probably rather what we called "passive crew", when I was in charge of crew planning in a major airline.

 

We don't know the details, but there are normally two extra seats in the cockpit, however not as comfortable as a first class seat. And today's larger aircrafts might also have a crew section with seats between cockpit and cabin; or somewhere else depending of aircraft type. Back in time we could use the extra cockpit seats for "passive crew", likely same as today's "deadheads".

 

From the article we don't know if these extra seats were taken in that particular flight – and in that case why and by who? – and it's also likely, that a labor agreement between pilots and the airline states, that "deadheads" shall fly first class, and the "deadhead" crew members therefore insist on their agreed benefit (not making an example to follow and undermine the labor agreement; 10-11 hours is long time in an extra cockpit seats).

 

Some airlines are known for overbooking, counting on that there will always be some "no show" passengers; bad luck if all passengers show up – sh*t happens – or was it just bad crew planning, or bad planning in general..?

????

 

Presuming it's a Boeing 777 aircraft that Thai use for Switzerland flights – other wide-body aircrafts have similar facilities – I found some images of cockpit layout...

 

This is a B777 cockpit lay-out, image taken for this webpage: "Boeing 777-9X"

 

This is a 3D image of a B777 cockpit, notice the extra seats at right, there are additional small thumb-images at the webpage "777 3D Cockpit".

 

A Virgin Australia photo of a B777 cockpit from webpage "Virgin Australia Boeing 777-31H/E".