Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[Lacessit]

On 11/4/2018 at 3:11 PM, giddyup said:

I am an Australian citizen and I do have money invested in Australian banks, but they can't actually force me to lodge a tax return, and according to the ATO I owe them nothing, and that includes any fines that might be levied for a non-return.

Either you are having tax deducted from your deposits beforehand as a non-resident, or you are getting enough franking credits to offset earnings.

They can't force you to lodge a tax return, true. However, they can start freezing your assets if they think you are under-reporting income.

[soalbundy]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:36 PM, giddyup said:

That was already in place, it didn't satisfy Thai authority obviously.The embassies couldn't lie and say they could verify income, all they could do was witness and sign your declaration.

I'm not surprised the IO wasn't satisfied, first the BE certifies they have seen your documents and then they stick a caveat at the bottom of the certification, doesn't inspire confidence and that's what it's all about, 'we trust our citizen and his documents' doesn't make the embassy culpable. The US and AUS embassies don't even look at documents, 'he swears he is telling the truth'.

[fforest1]

1 hour ago, HappyAndRich said:

Nope, they want people that can prove means for stay for real, not on a paper that states a number nobody have been able to check.

Every westerner has the means to stay or they could not stay....Save for a few western bums living in the street....They know this too....

The wise man can look at the past to see the future...

 

And the past 10 years teaches us that visa class by visa class has been squeezed .....So look for more of the same...

 

The only visa that is untouchable seems to be the elite visa...

 

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Either you are having tax deducted from your deposits beforehand as a non-resident, or you are getting enough franking credits to offset earnings.

They can't force you to lodge a tax return, true. However, they can start freezing your assets if they think you are under-reporting income.

My income hasn't changed in 9 years, other than CPI increases to the pension. I had correspondence with the ATO last year, asked them if I had any monies unpaid, the answer was no. I believe I am probably seen as a non-resident never having been back to Oz in 9 years.

Edited November 5, 2018 by giddyup

[Pattaya46]

10 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Every westerner has the means to stay or they could not stay....

Most yes, but not all.  There are guys who live in Thailand on Retirement or Marriage Extension but who get their money from working illegally in Thailand. For them the Income Letter without any check is very convenient. They are among those that TI is trying to catch.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Most yes, but not all.  There are guys who live in Thailand on Retirement or Marriage Extension but who get their money from working illegally in Thailand. For them the Income Letter without any check is very convenient. They are among those that TI is trying to catch.

what could an old farang work as in Thailand, if any it could only be very few, hardly worth the bother.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, HappyAndRich said:

Sure, we agree to differ. But, I just have to say one more thing too. 

The reason they want the embassies to guarantee, which they can´t as you say. Do you think that is because all have been living with and abiding the rules?
Probably not, and that is of course why this request that might lead to a change has been raised.

By the way, A really nice day to you as well.

Do you know how many income declarations have been proven to be wrong/fraudulent by Thai Immigration?

 

Presumably zero (or close to zero) - you just prefer to believe that this change is a result of Immigration discovering many fraudulent applications....

 

We all 'get it', as your username says it all ????.  You (for some obscure reason) are determined to declare that 'you're rich' and (assuming this is true....) would prefer that those without similar amounts of wealth were thrown out, as you're 'sure' (....) everyone else is unworthy.....

Edited November 5, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Pattaya46]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

what could an old farang work as in Thailand, if any it could only be very few, hardly worth the bother.

Many people consider that 50 yo is not "old" 

Depending of countries, you may have to wait until 60, 65, 70 to receive your pension 

Those on marriage could even be on their 40th, 30th, 20th...

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Many people consider that 50 yo is not "old" 

Depending of countries, you may have to wait until 60, 65, 70 to receive your pension 

Those on marriage could even be on their 40th, 30th, 20th...

Other than being self-employed, and work at home on the internet, I don't know what other kind of work a retiree could do in Thailand without a work permit. If you are under 50 then you'd still need a work permit.

Edited November 5, 2018 by giddyup

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

what could an old farang work as in Thailand, if any it could only be very few, hardly worth the bother.

Headmaster private school, property developer, steel fabrication company manager, engineering inspectors, medical equipment sales, pharmaceutical sales, hospital administrator, oil and gas worker supervision, transportation manager, building engineers, aviation systems supervisor, .... do you want me to go on?

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Most yes, but not all.  There are guys who live in Thailand on Retirement or Marriage Extension but who get their money from working illegally in Thailand. For them the Income Letter without any check is very convenient. They are among those that TI is trying to catch.

How many?  Probably far less than are below retirement age, but working illegally in Thailand?

 

I've no idea why a few posters get a 'hard on' at the idea of 'expats' who were living here entirely legally previously, now being possibly thrown out 'cos they don't have 800,000 bht spare in cash....

[Pattaya46]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

what could an old farang work as in Thailand, //

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

// I don't know what other kind of work a retiree could do in Thailand without a work permit.

I have meet such a guy in May when looking for carpenter for my condo renovation. A 52 yo guy from my country. He was a carpenter in France and works here building wood furniture/cabinets for a small Thai company in border of Pattaya. Paid daily. He intends to stop working and marry his Thai GF when 60, but for now he need money to stay here.

Probably not the best idea, but not the only one to do so.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Headmaster private school, property developer, steel fabrication company manager, engineering inspectors, medical equipment sales, pharmaceutical sales, hospital administrator, oil and gas worker supervision, transportation manager, building engineers, aviation systems supervisor, .... do you want me to go on?

wouldn't they need to speak Thai as well ? If they can get work in such qualified positions they could get a work permit and live here legally.

[tropo]

23 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Headmaster private school, property developer, steel fabrication company manager, engineering inspectors, medical equipment sales, pharmaceutical sales, hospital administrator, oil and gas worker supervision, transportation manager, building engineers, aviation systems supervisor, .... do you want me to go on?

The last thing Farang doing any of those jobs without a work permit need to worry about is an income letter. Most of them would be working on borrowed time anyway. I'll bet there aren't too many foreigners working illegally at such high profile jobs.

Edited November 5, 2018 by tropo

[giddyup]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you know how many income declarations have been proven to be wrong/fraudulent by Thai Immigration?

 

Presumably zero (or close to zero) - you just prefer to believe that this change is a result of Immigration discovering many fraudulent applications....

It would be a mammoth job for the Australian embassy to verify that all statutory declarations were legitimate, hence no prosecutions, or at least none we are aware of, not the kind of thing that would be publicised I imagine. Anyone could see that the present system of just having your stat dec witnessed by the embassy is going to make it very easy for those that can't comply with the Thai requirements. Someone on the Thai side has decided they are not just prepared to take someones word for income any longer.

[giddyup]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

I have meet such a guy in May when looking for carpenter for my condo renovation. A 52 yo guy from my country. He was a carpenter in France and works here building wood furniture/cabinets for a small Thai company in border of Pattaya. Paid daily. He intends to stop working and marry his Thai GF when 60, but for now he need money to stay here.

Probably not the best idea, but not the only one to do so.

What kind of visa is he here on? I would say that kind of case is pretty rare. He's probably getting paid Thai wages for a start and also runs the risk of being reported by someone.

Edited November 5, 2018 by giddyup

[marcusarelus]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

wouldn't they need to speak Thai as well ? If they can get work in such qualified positions they could get a work permit and live here legally.

Yes you would think so but I've been offered some of those jobs while on a retirement visa. 

[Pattaya46]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

What kind of visa is he here on?

Yearly Extension "Retirement" (+ 50 yo). French embassy stopped to ask proofs for income letter a few years back already. Easy for him.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, Pattaya46 said:

Yearly Extension "Retirement" (+ 50 yo). French embassy stopped to ask proofs for income letter a few years back already. Easy for him.

It's been easy for a lot of people. For some the good times are now over.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Yes you would think so but I've been offered some of those jobs while on a retirement visa. 

Of course you then run the risk of being reported for working illegally and then being deported. Unless you get a work visa.

[HappyAndRich]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you know how many income declarations have been proven to be wrong/fraudulent by Thai Immigration?

 

Presumably zero (or close to zero) - you just prefer to believe that this change is a result of Immigration discovering many fraudulent applications....

 

We all 'get it', as your username says it all ????.  You (for some obscure reason) are determined to declare that 'you're rich' and (assuming this is true....) would prefer that those without similar amounts of wealth were thrown out, as you're 'sure' (....) everyone else is unworthy.....

No, you are totally wrong. That is not what I want, and have never written.

[dick dasterdly]

31 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Most yes, but not all.  There are guys who live in Thailand on Retirement or Marriage Extension but who get their money from working illegally in Thailand. For them the Income Letter without any check is very convenient. They are among those that TI is trying to catch.

 

10 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

I have meet such a guy in May when looking for carpenter for my condo renovation. A 52 yo guy from my country. He was a carpenter in France and works here building wood furniture/cabinets for a small Thai company in border of Pattaya. Paid daily. He intends to stop working and marry his Thai GF when 60, but for now he need money to stay here.

Probably not the best idea, but not the only one to do so.

Good grief!  You're seriously basing your argument on one 52 year old you met who (for some obscure reason....) told you his age ?????!

Edited November 5, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The fact that there are 66 pages and counting on this thread leads me to the conclusion there are a lot of worried Americans, Brits and Australians.

Why are you suprised?

 

It's pretty obvious that anyone using the income route is going to be worried.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why are you suprised?

 

It's pretty obvious that anyone using the income route is going to be worried.

Er - when in my post did I convey the impression of surprise? Yes, it is obvious. It's the number of posts that has me surprised, not the conclusion I have reached.

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, giddyup said:

It would be a mammoth job for the Australian embassy to verify that all statutory declarations were legitimate, hence no prosecutions, or at least none we are aware of, not the kind of thing that would be publicised I imagine. Anyone could see that the present system of just having your stat dec witnessed by the embassy is going to make it very easy for those that can't comply with the Thai requirements. Someone on the Thai side has decided they are not just prepared to take someones word for income any longer.

The stat declaration was a very convenient way to "prove" income. None of my personal income is Australia sourced, so proving an income would be very difficult through a government agency or the embassy... however, I spend 40k per month on rent and utilities alone, so for just 65k a month I wouldn't be eating very well and my wife's family would be starving. I'll have to do it your way, the easy way... deposit 3 million on a Thai bank. Rest assured you'll have Tropo bugging you on this forum for years to come LOL. (joke - 800k will suffice). If they stop the spouse piggyback retirement visa, then I'm out of here, but not until then. They actually discussed that idea about 10 years ago with full intentions of implementing it - Spouse and supporter both had to have 800k to show, but they quashed that idea pretty quickly. With all the other things happening, it's quite possible they may proceed, and foreign couples would need 1.6 million on deposit for 3 months a year. Anything can happen.

[dick dasterdly]

47 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you know how many income declarations have been proven to be wrong/fraudulent by Thai Immigration?

 

Presumably zero (or close to zero) - you just prefer to believe that this change is a result of Immigration discovering many fraudulent applications....

 

We all 'get it', as your username says it all ????.  You (for some obscure reason) are determined to declare that 'you're rich' and (assuming this is true....) would prefer that those without similar amounts of wealth were thrown out, as you're 'sure' (....) everyone else is unworthy.....

 

33 minutes ago, giddyup said:

It would be a mammoth job for the Australian embassy to verify that all statutory declarations were legitimate, hence no prosecutions, or at least none we are aware of, not the kind of thing that would be publicised I imagine. Anyone could see that the present system of just having your stat dec witnessed by the embassy is going to make it very easy for those that can't comply with the Thai requirements. Someone on the Thai side has decided they are not just prepared to take someones word for income any longer.

Good to see you 'sticking up' for 'happyand rich' - but (unsuprisingly....) you've ignored the question asked - and deflected.....

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, tropo said:

The stat declaration was a very convenient way to "prove" income. None of my personal income is Australia sourced, so proving an income would be very difficult through a government agency or the embassy... however, I spend 40k per month on rent and utilities alone, so for just 65k a month I wouldn't be eating very well and my wife's family would be starving. I'll have to do it your way, the easy way... deposit 3 million on a Thai bank. Rest assured you'll have Tropo bugging you on this forum for years to come LOL. (joke - 800k will suffice). If they stop the spouse piggyback retirement visa, then I'm out of here, but not until then. They actually discussed that idea about 10 years ago with full intentions of implementing it - Spouse and supporter both had to have 800k to show, but they quashed that idea pretty quickly. With all the other things happening, it's quite possible they may proceed, and foreign couples would need 1.6 million on deposit for 3 months a year. Anything can happen.

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Good to see you 'sticking up' for 'happyand rich' - but (unsuprisingly....)you've only deflected from the question asked!

 

 

The obvious answer is that no one knows. Not sure how I'm "sticking up" for anyone, I'm only voicing my own opinion.

[malt25]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I'm talking in hypothetical terms. I do the 800K route too. It's just nice to have a second option.

I think I am not unreasonable to expect Australian public servants, paid for with my taxes, to deliver service to Australians abroad. If they can't do that, why the hell are we employing them?

Me thinks that you are on the wrong wave length here. I think you are being unreasonable to expect any embassy to employ staff to attempt to verify incomes. If it were just income from "government pensions" I agree it wouldn't be impossible. But, there's so many different income streams expats rely on to comply with immigration demands, verification is way beyond the scope & interest of any embassy. I sometimes think we all feel that embassies are here exclusively for "our" service. Embassies are primarily to foster trade, good will & cultural issues. Maybe some military issues. Parties, golf, fishing trips are also high on the list. If we, as expats fall foul of the law, the best we can expect is for the embassy to recommend a reasonable lawyer. Nothing more.

I also rely on the income method, so I'm NOT a wealthy farang with excess money to transfer into a local bank account.

We have chosen to reside in a foreign country. We have very few, if any, rights. It all boils down to a matter of comply or move on.

That's my take on the situation. I accept many will disagree.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, giddyup said:

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

Oh good.  Someone else who is determined to state that they are wealthy....

 

I'm at a loss as to why a few posters with no interest in the topic at hand (as they are v wealthy, and so it doesn't affect them....), keep posting regardless!