Frustration at Immigration Office regarding income affidavit policy

[tropo]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

I would say all immigration offices know about since it was written in a directive in 2013.

Only a couple of rogue offices don't go by it.

What I meant was that few applicants would be aware of the 6-month validity of income letters. Either way, I'm not confident that Jomtien will honour a 6-month old income letter in June... but I have set up an appointment to get one in the first week of January. That gives me about 6 weeks to decide if I will make the trip to my embassy or not.

[jacko45k]

On 11/17/2018 at 11:02 PM, evadgib said:

This is Thai Immigrations problem & is for them to sort out instead of blaiming the big bad wolf that could not comply with their outrageous demands.

No, it is the people applying for extensions whose problem it is. They are required to show proof of income. Immigration found dumping the responsibility on Embassies an easy fix, until they realized the Embassies were not actually providing proof of income. 

It is wrong to blame our hosts in this case and sounds simply like venting.

 

Worrying in the OP is that it is stated Embassy letters will not be accepted by immigration after Jan 1st 2019, I was believing they would be valid for 6 months from issue and not rejected outright.

Edited November 20, 2018 by jacko45k

[Just Weird]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:43 PM, tropo said:

Splitting hairs today are we?... or you just felt like making an argument about nothing....

 

They absolutely are contradictory statements and what is factual and opinion right now is a very grey area.

 

The important takeaway from the OP was that this particular office has decided that income statements aren't valid after January 1. That is very likely just an opinion too as right now there are NO FACTS, even if people have the opinion that they are.

"Splitting hairs today are we?".

No, I'm not, there is no grey area when it comes to known facts and individuals' opinions in this case.

[evadgib]

23 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It is wrong to blame our hosts in this case and sounds simply like venting.

Those seeking verification should be doing the legwork and leaving the goalposts alone.

Edited November 20, 2018 by evadgib

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

"Splitting hairs today are we?".

No, I'm not, there is no grey area when it comes to known facts and individuals' opinions in this case.

Yes, you are. There are zero known facts about what will happen after January 1, and currently, it's all opinion.

[tropo]

15 minutes ago, evadgib said:

37 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It is wrong to blame our hosts in this case and sounds simply like venting.

Those seeking verification should be doing the legwork and leaving the goalposts alone.

It's not wrong to blame the hosts. They make the rules and have offered income verification as a bona fide way to get retirement extensions - and now it seems they have taken that away with no warning or explanation. It was never the duty of embassies to verify income. It was just an easy way out.

[jacko45k]

17 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Those seeking verification should be doing the legwork and leaving the goalposts alone.

They have not changed their requirements that I know of, simply realized they were not being met. If one wants to retire in Thailand, meet the regulations. They will always be moving goalposts, as people will always seek to bypass regulations.

[jacko45k]

6 minutes ago, tropo said:

It's not wrong to blame the hosts. They make the rules and have offered income verification as a bona fide way to get retirement extensions - and now it seems they have taken that away with no warning or explanation. It was never the duty of embassies to verify income. It was just an easy way out.

They have not. Income verification is still the requirement. I have not heard of any changes there.

Four Embassies have withdrawn from issuing letters.

Edited November 20, 2018 by jacko45k

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

They have not. Income verification is still the requirement. I have not heard of any changes there.

How does Thai imm verify say a P60 if an embassy can't?

I don't know either but its obvious where blame lies & thats firmly within the kingdom.

Edited November 20, 2018 by evadgib

[jacko45k]

Just now, evadgib said:

How does Thai imm verify say a P60 if an embassy can't?

I don't know either but I do know who cocked this up!

Well as has been stated earlier in the thread, that is not clear yet, or what will be acceptable in time, given patience. Perhaps the Embassies cocked things up issuing Stat Decs or Affidavits, which also verified nothing.

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

They have not. Income verification is still the requirement. I have not heard of any changes there.

Four Embassies have withdrawn from issuing letters.

Yes, currently, but most people are concerned about after January 1. Did you not read the first post of this thread? That's not the first report about Immigration officers saying they won't accept the income method after January 1. It's not time to bury one's head in the sand and HOPE all will be well.

[jacko45k]

43 minutes ago, tropo said:

Yes, currently, but most people are concerned about after January 1. Did you not read the first post of this thread? That's not the first report about Immigration officers saying they won't accept the income method after January 1. It's not time to bury one's head in the sand and HOPE all will be well.

Well my head is above the sand, I have already deposited the 800k years ago.  Another post of mine in this thread also mentions that point. As of yet, it remains unconfirmed statements by odd immigration officers. Others state letters will be good for 6 months. Read a few Ubonjoe posts.

Edited November 20, 2018 by jacko45k

[tropo]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well my head is above the sand, I have already deposited the 800k years ago.  Another post of mine in this thread also mentions that point. As of yet, it remains unconfirmed statements by odd immigration officers. Others state letters will be good for 6 months. Read a few Ubonjoe posts.

You're not even invested in this, so why hijack the thread and try to argue with people who require the income letter. Surely you must have more interesting things to do with your time. Curiously a lot of bored people with 800k in the bank continue to hijack these threads and bait people who don't.

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, tropo said:

You're not even invested in this, so why hijack the thread and try to argue with people who require the income letter. Surely you must have more interesting things to do with your time. Curiously a lot of bored people with 800k in the bank continue to hijack these threads and bait people who don't.

I am  sorry, I didn't see the rules saying I  was not permitted input on this topic. It doesn't mean I have no knowledge. I have been following this matter for a while as I have friends affected and try to help them. By your restrictions people who have information should not post! You would blame immigration for this issue and that is a point I disagree with.

[Media1]

4 hours ago, tropo said:

It's great that you're so confident. I hope you're right, but the directive you posted predates a military coup by 1 year and most heads (if not all) of government departments have been changed. Despite this directive, regional offices still all do their own thing.  

New elections approaching 

watch draws will be cleared an hire suits returned.

Patients..

[bkkguy1970]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Perhaps the Embassies cocked things up issuing Stat Decs or Affidavits, which also verified nothing.

the legal definition of notorising/certifying a stat dec/affidavit either by a consular official at an embassy or a notary public/commissioner of oaths etc at home in the USA, UK, Australia, Canada and most other western countries has always been about certifying WHO made the declaration not WHAT was in the declaration

 

in most western countries this concept has not changed for hundreds of years so I don't understand why you think it is the embassies that have "cocked things up"

 

bkkguy

[gk10002000]

21 hours ago, Media1 said:

Case by case basis. The problem is fraudulent use of the Embassy. They were not asking for proof of funds on paper and online. They will certify your documents if you are genuine.

Hopefully some middle ground will be reached where as long as one brings in some certified documents, the Thais may accept them.  I could bring estimated income letter from my bank/broker, the printout of my holdings that pay dividends and interest, my last year transaction records, etc.  Now I could bring in my tax form 1040 but much of my income is inside my IRAs and unless I transfer funds out of there, those incomes do not show up as income on the 1040.  But the income is documented on my IRA transaction records.  I simply may not need to withdraw monies from the IRAs, nor should I have to be required to do so to prove I have income.  That would be a stupid requirement. 

[Jingthing]

I seriously doubt Thai immigration is ever going to allow foreign financial documents as proof. It's just too much work for them and they aren't Thai documents. It seems much more likely either income methods go away entirely or they move to full required import of claimed income. If the latter I hope they allow flexibility in timing and ALSO preserve the COMBINATION method. For example instead of requiring 65K per month allow people to transfer the full amount just once annually. 

 

I do think there is a compromise they could offer, which they probably won't. That as I said before is allow people with lifetime government pensions to get them officialized ONCE and make that document good for life at Thai immigration. There could be a separate office in Bangkok only for that process. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Jingthing

[Mike Teavee]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I seriously doubt Thai immigration is ever going to allow foreign financial documents as proof. It's just too much work for them and they aren't Thai documents. It seems much more likely either income methods go away entirely or they move to full required import of claimed income. If the latter I hope they allow flexibility in timing and ALSO preserve the COMBINATION method. For example instead of requiring 65K per month allow people to transfer the full amount just once annually. 

 

I do think there is a compromise they could offer, which they probably won't. That as I said before is allow people with lifetime government pensions to get them officialized ONCE and make that document good for life at Thai immigration. There could be a separate office in Bangkok only for that process. 

 

"allow people to transfer the full amount just once annually."

 

Obvious problem with this being why would anybody seed the 800/400K if they could just transfer it in a few days before renewal time (& potentially send it straight back out afterwards).

 

 

IMHO deposits over 12 months is too much to ask for 1st extension after the rule change but you would expect them to want to see money going into the account over at least 3 months & possibly even 6 months to distinguish it from the deposit seeding route.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

"allow people to transfer the full amount just once annually."

 

Obvious problem with this being why would anybody seed the 800/400K if they could just transfer it in a few days before renewal time (& potentially send it straight back out afterwards).

 

 

IMHO deposits over 12 months is too much to ask for 1st extension after the rule change but you would expect them to want to see money going into the account over at least 3 months & possibly even 6 months to distinguish it from the deposit seeding route.

I don't agree. Just tell them what the income is which many people have paid outside Thailand. Show a document. Especially the first time you make the income claim. Just the same as happens now with income letters when they ask for more information. Then they could have it on file, oh this guy gets a retirement pension and there would be no need to ask ever again, regardless of when the transfers come in. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Jingthing

[luckyluke]

Great ideas here of how T. I. should handle to suit us. 

 

However I believe if T.I. is intend to change something at their actual directives, it will again be regulations which suit them. 

Meaning, effortless for the officer. 

Only 2 documents actually, a bank letter or an income letter (each one sheet of paper, with one or eventually 2 amounts). 

[muffy]

I notice the  no tipping sign at BKK immigration , they must be happy with that .I also notice a slow down .

 

 

[tropo]

5 hours ago, bkkguy1970 said:

10 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Perhaps the Embassies cocked things up issuing Stat Decs or Affidavits, which also verified nothing.

the legal definition of notorising/certifying a stat dec/affidavit either by a consular official at an embassy or a notary public/commissioner of oaths etc at home in the USA, UK, Australia, Canada and most other western countries has always been about certifying WHO made the declaration not WHAT was in the declaration

 

in most western countries this concept has not changed for hundreds of years so I don't understand why you think it is the embassies that have "cocked things up"

Exactly right. At the end of the day, it's TI's job to verify income, not a foreign embassy. Stat decs and affidavits are all they're ever been and TI knows exactly what they are and made the decision to accept them. 

[tropo]

50 minutes ago, muffy said:

I notice the  no tipping sign at BKK immigration , they must be happy with that .I also notice a slow down .

 

 

I had a bit of a laugh when I saw that sign at the retirement desk at Jomtien yesterday.

[wayned]

36 minutes ago, tropo said:

At the end of the day, it's TI's job to verify income, not a foreign embassy.

That's a joke!  If your own embassy admits that they con not verify the income that you reported that you received on the supporting documents that you present because of your own country's financial privacy laws how do you expect that TI would have that capability?  In the end, it would be the responsibility of the person that submits the supporting documentation to submit certified documents containing the proper notary stamps.  I get two pension letters each year, one from the US SSA.  There is no way that you will get them to motorize the document, you can't even get a replacement copy even if the first is lost in the mail.  I have a second pension from a large international company that provides a yearly pension letter that is issued in Patterson, New Jersey.  I get it by email.  I guess that I could ask them to have the document notarized by the corporate notary and mail me the original, but would TI accept a document normalized in the US by "Joe Smuckateelo", the corporate notary. I doubt it!  Both of these pensions are paid into a Thai Bank account each month, one starting in 2000 and the other in 2007.  The last time I did my extension in October I had the letter from the US Embassy but discussed the future situation with the IO and showed her all of the documentation including one of the current bank books.  Her determination was until the law is changed she needs the letter and doesn't care about the supporting documentation! She took the letter and I got my extension!

[jacko45k]

7 hours ago, bkkguy1970 said:

the legal definition of notorising/certifying a stat dec/affidavit either by a consular official at an embassy or a notary public/commissioner of oaths etc at home in the USA, UK, Australia, Canada and most other western countries has always been about certifying WHO made the declaration not WHAT was in the declaration

 

in most western countries this concept has not changed for hundreds of years so I don't understand why you think it is the embassies that have "cocked things up"

 

bkkguy

Simply as it was not what Thai immigration required of them. Sadly they decided that belatedly. 

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, tropo said:

Exactly right. At the end of the day, it's TI's job to verify income, not a foreign embassy. Stat decs and affidavits are all they're ever been and TI knows exactly what they are and made the decision to accept them. 

Surely they have much less access to foreigner's financial status than their own Embassies. And do you get to define what is TI's duties and what is not a foreign Embassy's duties? I believe it is TI remit to accurately verify the status of non-nationals living in Thailand and protect the country. They have now made the decision to require verification, not simply SDs and affidavits, likely with some reason behind that decision. (Which I would like to know). That was asked of the Embassies I heard in May. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by jacko45k

[tropo]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

That's a joke!  If your own embassy admits that they con not verify the income that you reported that you received on the supporting documents that you present because of your own country's financial privacy laws how do you expect that TI would have that capability?  In the end, it would be the responsibility of the person that submits the supporting documentation to submit certified documents containing the proper notary stamps.  I get two pension letters each year, one from the US SSA.  There is no way that you will get them to motorize the document, you can't even get a replacement copy even if the first is lost in the mail.  I have a second pension from a large international company that provides a yearly pension letter that is issued in Patterson, New Jersey.  I get it by email.  I guess that I could ask them to have the document notarized by the corporate notary and mail me the original, but would TI accept a document normalized in the US by "Joe Smuckateelo", the corporate notary. I doubt it!  Both of these pensions are paid into a Thai Bank account each month, one starting in 2000 and the other in 2007.  The last time I did my extension in October I had the letter from the US Embassy but discussed the future situation with the IO and showed her all of the documentation including one of the current bank books.  Her determination was until the law is changed she needs the letter and doesn't care about the supporting documentation! She took the letter and I got my extension!

There was no joke intended. I'm not here to joke because I'm in the same boat as you and thousands of others, but that does not change the situation. It is NOT the responsibility of foreign embassies to determine if visa applicants for a Thai visa meet TI income requirements. They were merely providing income letters as a convenient service. Now TI have decided this "convenience" will no longer be acceptable to them. Obviously, the people who hand out the extensions (TI) are the ones to ensure that the applicant's income level is sufficient. If they can't do that in a manner that they find reliable, they will take away the option. That is what YOU should be concerned about rather than just thinking of complicated ways to prove your income that you may never get a chance to test. Many countries issue retirement status through bank accounts and investments. It would not be surprising if Thailand follows suit. Offering retirement status on the basis of monthly income was a courtesy the Thailand government extended to foreigners. If it is too difficult to prove, or some compromise cannot be reached, it will be withdrawn.

 

I prefer to expect the worst and prepare for it than living in perpetual hope and praying for better outcomes.
 

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't agree. Just tell them what the income is which many people have paid outside Thailand. Show a document. Especially the first time you make the income claim. Just the same as happens now with income letters when they ask for more information. Then they could have it on file, oh this guy gets a retirement pension and there would be no need to ask ever again, regardless of when the transfers come in. 

We'll see and there was good feedback from the US Embassy meeting in Chiang Mai yesterday that mentioned US officials providing Thailand Immigration with training for how to understand Official US pensions documents so it may well be that some evidence of overseas income is going to be "more equal" than others.

 

 

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

We'll see and there was good feedback from the US Embassy meeting in Chiang Mai yesterday that mentioned US officials providing Thailand Immigration with training for how to understand Official US pensions documents so it may well be that some evidence of overseas income is going to be "more equal" than others.

 

 

Good luck with the training happening,

   If the Thai immigration can be trained to read american pension documents and verify  income , why can the American embassy be trained to read the same documents and certify income?

Edited November 20, 2018 by sirineou
typo