Frustration at Immigration Office regarding income affidavit policy

[JLCrab]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

the US Embassy meeting in Chiang Mai yesterday that mentioned US officials providing Thailand Immigration with training for how to understand Official US pensions documents

Great so someone might be able to submit a 1099 and other US tax or government pension forms as proof of monthly income and they all might still not add up to the 65K baht monthly required and then what.

[Mike Teavee]

At least US is trying to do something for its citizens unlike the other Embassies.

 

As a Brit I’m not expecting our lot to do anything for us so going down the money in the Bank route + regular cash transfers

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[fforest1]

Unfortunately not many Americans get 65,000 a month in social security....And even if you get over the magical 65,000 you still have to pay taxes on that....So you would have to show more income sources....

Edited November 20, 2018 by fforest1

[joevanwyck]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Good luck with the training happening,

   If the Thai immigration can be trained to read american pension documents and verify  income , why can the American embassy be trained to read the same documents and certify income?

Good point!

[mfd101]

And then there'll be training to read UK & Oz docos, and then they'll need Danish language skills ... Immigration offices will be closed: 'Everyone at training school for next 6 months'.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, fforest1 said:

Unfortunately not many Americans get 65,000 a month in social security....And even if you get over the magical 65,000 you still have to pay taxes on that....So you would have to show more income sources....

If that were the case, that person must have been making a fraudulent declaration to the embassy in previous years.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

f that were the case, that person must have been making a fraudulent declaration to the embassy in previous years.

That is not correct- I have over 65K each month in Social Security and I pay NO taxes on it.  Paying taxes on Social Security  involves other income that may push your total taxable income over a certain threshold.   If one has that other income- there is a formula used by the Internal Revenue Department to determine if any of one's Social Security is taxable.

[JohnnyBD]

  2 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Unfortunately not many Americans get 65,000 a month in social security....And even if you get over the magical 65,000 you still have to pay taxes on that....So you would have to show more income sources....

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

If that were the case, that person must have been making a fraudulent declaration to the embassy in previous years. 

Both of you are correct... There are lots of Americans (and Brits, Aussies & other nationalities) who don't & didn't have the 65k per month income from either a guaranteed private or govt. pension and I would guess many of those expats were getting the income letters, stat decs and income affidavits fraudulently. Maybe, that's the main reason TI finally said it needs to stop.

There are also many Americans that do have the 65k or more from either a private pension or US social security and they are being affected by this too. I'm upset too just like everyone else posting on this forum... I have both, a private pension & US social security and each one is well over 65k, but without the income affidavit I can't use either one of them. Hopefully, TI will at least accept the private & US social security statements & 1099s going forward, but I'm not counting on it, so I already put the 800k in the bank.

 

Good luck with TI understanding & accepting all the other 1099s from IRAs, interest, dividends, capital gains, rental income, etc.

Edited November 21, 2018 by JohnnyBD

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

4 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Unfortunately not many Americans get 65,000 a month in social security....And even if you get over the magical 65,000 you still have to pay taxes on that....So you would have to show more income sources....

If that were the case, that person must have been making a fraudulent declaration to the embassy in previous years.

Not so.  Many of us have other types of valid income from the USA.  And the standard was "income" = "gross income" - not "net after taxes" income.

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

There are lots of Americans (and Brits, Aussies & other nationalities) who don't & didn't have the 65k per month income from either a guaranteed private or govt. pension and I would guess many of those expats were getting the income letters, stat decs and income affidavits fraudulently. Maybe, that's the main reason TI finally said it needs to stop.

There is nothing in the rules stating it must be "pension" type income.  There is no evidence I have seen presented indicating any sort of "investigation" which found fraud.  If there were, the fraudsters could have been reported, and would have faced potential Felony charges - which would have but a Big Damper on any future fraudulent letter activity.

 

As is, many with Valid Incomes above the required minimums will now be faced with paying for agent-submitted applications.  This maximizes under-the-table revenue - vs a fraction of that agent-laundered money, if only the "embassy-letter fraudsters" had to use agents to stay.

Edited November 21, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Simply as it was not what Thai immigration required of them. Sadly they decided that belatedly. 

In other words, T.I. changed their minds on what they wanted.  The letters were clear in exactly what they were and were not - so a claim they "didn't know" isn't plausible. 

 

One would think that changing the standard would be a process which was well considered in advance, and a public-statement on what would be expected for income-based applications in the future would be presented simultaneously with the announcement of the policy-change - but we have heard nothing "official" yet. 

[Pattaya46]

35 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Not so.  Many of us have other types of valid income from the USA.  And the standard was "income" = "gross income" - not "net after taxes" income.

That's what people from US, UK,... liked to believe on this forum, but people of many European countries always declared their "net income", the only one TI was interesting in.

If ever (?) TI require the income to be paid in a Thai bank, you will have some problem to transfer your "gross income"...

[JackThompson]

26 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

That's what people from US, UK,... liked to believe on this forum, but people of many European countries always declared their "net income", the only one TI was interesting in.

If ever (?) TI require the income to be paid in a Thai bank, you will have some problem to transfer your "gross income"...

It will not be too difficult for folks to pay expenses from Thai accounts, if necessary.

 

Maybe, at some point, they will change the law to say "net income" - though they should then reduce the minimum required, accordingly. 

[DavoTheGun]

A Number of agencies are still offering Retirement Visas, no money of letter required, with sums from 18,000 to 28,000 Baht.

 

[wayned]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

In other words, T.I. changed their minds on what they wanted.  The letters were clear in exactly what they were and were not - so a claim they "didn't know" isn't plausible. 

 

One would think that changing the standard would be a process which was well considered in advance, and a public-statement on what would be expected for income-based applications in the future would be presented simultaneously with the announcement of the policy-change - but we have heard nothing "official" yet. 

IMHO this was not started by TI, it was started by some sanctimonious Vice Consul at the BE.  They started the BS with their current change in the income letter back in 2014 (I think) and the US Embassy took the position to "wait and see" and things never changed until the BE raised the issue this year.  Unfortunately the new consular staff at the US Embassy jumped on the band wagon this time and Australia and Denmark followed suit.  If they had taken the same stance as they did in 2014 I doubt that we would be in this pickle.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

IMHO this was not started by TI, it was started by some sanctimonious Vice Consul at the BE.  They started the BS with their current change in the income letter back in 2014 (I think) and the US Embassy took the position to "wait and see" and things never changed until the BE raised the issue this year.  Unfortunately the new consular staff at the US Embassy jumped on the band wagon this time and Australia and Denmark followed suit.  If they had taken the same stance as they did in 2014 I doubt that we would be in this pickle.

It's somewhat naive to assume that BE had simply followed the Thai example (of letting some LE wallah make-it-up-as-they-go) rather than acting upon direction from London.

HTH

Edited November 21, 2018 by evadgib

[KhunFred]

1 hour ago, DavoTheGun said:

A Number of agencies are still offering Retirement Visas, no money of letter required, with sums from 18,000 to 28,000 Baht.

 

Saw one quote for 12 thousand baht the other day from an agency on Soi Buakhou in Pattaya. The most common seems to be 15 thousand baht.

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

It's somewhat naive to assume that BE had simply followed the Thai example (of letting some LE wallah make-it-up-as-they-go) rather than acting upon direction from London.

HTH

What do the acronyms LE and HTH stand for in your post?

[JohnnyBD]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Not so.  Many of us have other types of valid income from the USA.  And the standard was "income" = "gross income" - not "net after taxes" income.

 

There is nothing in the rules stating it must be "pension" type income.  There is no evidence I have seen presented indicating any sort of "investigation" which found fraud.  If there were, the fraudsters could have been reported, and would have faced potential Felony charges - which would have but a Big Damper on any future fraudulent letter activity.

 

As is, many with Valid Incomes above the required minimums will now be faced with paying for agent-submitted applications.  This maximizes under-the-table revenue - vs a fraction of that agent-laundered money, if only the "embassy-letter fraudsters" had to use agents to stay.

Hi Mr. Jack,

I understand there's nothing written in the Thai rules about the income having to be from a guaranteed private or govt pension, but it seems to me that if TI does start accepting the monthly income method (without the income letters/affidavits), they will probably (just guessing) want to see the true source of the income from a legitimate source to keep people honest. There are so many ways to game the rules by borrowing, transferring, withdrawing & recycling from both inside & outside of Thailand, that my guess is TI will want more than just a passbook showing money being deposited once a month and then withdrawn. I know people have other sources of income such as; interest, stock dividends, IRA withdrawals, rental income, side hustles, digital nomads, etc. and I know a couple of guys that still work full-time outside of Thailand when they can find the work, but how will TI view all those different types of income? No one knows anything yet for certain, so we will have to wait to see what the rules will be... Kindly...

[JLCrab]

56 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I know people have other sources of income such as; interest, stock dividends, IRA withdrawals, rental income, side hustles, digital nomads, etc. and I know a couple of guys

That's what makes it easy for me. I don't know any people or guys and I don't care what is the cornucopia of possible income sources that one might have. If the whole thing just gets too complicated and they can't figure out what is the monthly income claimed in about the same time required to review the current income affidavit, the IMM folks they are just gonna sh***t can the whole thing.

Edited November 21, 2018 by JLCrab

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Maestro said:

What do the acronyms LE and HTH stand for in your post?

Locally engaged (employee, in the embassy's own terminology) and hope this helps (explains).

Edited November 21, 2018 by evadgib

[Maestro]

Thank you.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, JLCrab said:

That's what makes it easy for me. I don't know any people or guys and I don't care what is the cornucopia of possible income sources that one might have. If the whole thing just gets too complicated and they can't figure out what is the monthly income claimed in about the same time required to review the current income affidavit, the IMM folks they are just gonna sh***t can the whole thing.

Exactly. Which is why there should be a compromise and go for the obvious, basic, simple lifetime income streams -- GOVERNMENT PENSIONS. Get them accepted and documented once so that the applicant and immigration doesn't need to do any new work every year.

[wayned]

If TI did start trying to accept foreign documents for proof of income since the documents will be in many foreign languages, they could require that they be translated into Thai and certified by the MFA!.  That would not be outrageous request since the IO's are not multi-lingual.  Could you imagine taking a document written in Thai to your government and expect them to accept it?  I think that would be a show stopper!

[sqwakvfr]

Wayne’s, great points.  The current state could be viewed as an Entreprenueral Opportunity: A language school could partner with a Visa Agency and propose a one stop shop.  This one stop shop could offer translation of foriegn income documents, assist in getting the translated document(s) certified by the MFA and then obtain the extension.  But of course this would require Initiative.  Which I have not seen much of in this country.  

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Wayne’s, great points.  The current state could be viewed as an Entreprenueral Opportunity: A language school could partner with a Visa Agency and propose a one stop shop.  This one stop shop could offer translation of foriegn income documents, assist in getting the translated document(s) certified by the MFA and then obtain the extension.  But of course this would require Initiative.  Which I have not seen much of in this country.  

An "agent-submitted" application doesn't require any income-docs except the one they get from the bank with their one-day loan.  And I doubt immigration will be willing to pour through foreign-docs - translated or otherwise.  But, an ED Visa could be used to avoid getting involved with an agent, by tiding an expat over while transferring monthly-money into a Thai account - assuming that becomes the new-standard for proving income. 

 

Of course, depending on one's area, one might still need to pay "no hassle" extension-fees through the school, regardless of class attendance, so would still be caught in the web of corruption.  But, if attending classes, one could at least have a legitimately received extension of stay.

Edited November 22, 2018 by JackThompson

[morrobay]

On 11/21/2018 at 8:36 AM, Thaidream said:

That is not correct- I have over 65K each month in Social Security and I pay NO taxes on it.  Paying taxes on Social Security  involves other income that may push your total taxable income over a certain threshold.   If one has that other income- there is a formula used by the Internal Revenue Department to determine if any of one's Social Security is taxable.

And it is a very simple public formula : https://www.irs.gov/publications/p501

See gross income definition in paragraph below table 1

Ie Take 1/2 your annual SS + all other income. If less than $25,000 (single) then none of your SS is include in your income, see  filing threshold .( w/o SS ) 

Edited November 22, 2018 by morrobay

[Number 6]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:30 PM, Jingthing said:

I seriously doubt Thai immigration is ever going to allow foreign financial documents as proof. It's just too much work for them and they aren't Thai documents. It seems much more likely either income methods go away entirely or they move to full required import of claimed income. If the latter I hope they allow flexibility in timing and ALSO preserve the COMBINATION method. For example instead of requiring 65K per month allow people to transfer the full amount just once annually. 

 

I do think there is a compromise they could offer, which they probably won't. That as I said before is allow people with lifetime government pensions to get them officialized ONCE and make that document good for life at Thai immigration. There could be a separate office in Bangkok only for that process. 

I've stated this dozens of times since this mess started. It will just talk to the banked criterion.

 

I also agree, Thailand could set up an office to verify lifetime pensions. Most western countries start drawing mid 60s. This could offset the banked funds.

 

Some will, some won't pay taxes on this income. That is an issue.

 

But again, let's not jus ourselves, many people now scrambling and crying were being less than truthful about their income stream. That party is over.

 

Fail to plan, plan to fail

Edited November 25, 2018 by Number 6

[wayned]

1 hour ago, Number 6 said:

ut again, let's not jus ourselves, many people now scrambling and crying were being less than truthful about their income stream. That party is over.

Many have not necessarily lied about their income stream, but for some it's just not that simple to have 800000 baht  magically appear in your bank account when they have been relying on the income stream.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

Many have not necessarily lied about their income stream, but for some it's just not that simple to have 800000 baht  magically appear in your bank account when they have been relying on the income stream.

Indeed - in particular, where the "magical appearance" will, in some cases, need to materialise by as soon as April 2019 (now barely 5 months away) in order to meet the seasoning requirements for retirement extensions!

 

EDIT: Or even retrospectively by 3 months in the case of Danish retirees!!

Edited November 25, 2018 by OJAS

[stereolab]

On 11/21/2018 at 11:47 PM, Jingthing said:

Exactly. Which is why there should be a compromise and go for the obvious, basic, simple lifetime income streams -- GOVERNMENT PENSIONS. Get them accepted and documented once so that the applicant and immigration doesn't need to do any new work every year.

Thai Immigration needs to sort out its basic structure for recording information held at local offices for immigrants. Once you have arrived they need to raise a single file which contains all off the necessary paperwork to register the immigrant with a local office. Each year the file is removed and updated. This would avoid all the photo-copying that still goes on. As Jingthing states, government pensions are for life. As are, military pensions.