Frustration at Immigration Office regarding income affidavit policy

[Spidey]

45 minutes ago, stereolab said:

Thai Immigration needs to sort out its basic structure for recording information held at local offices for immigrants. Once you have arrived they need to raise a single file which contains all off the necessary paperwork to register the immigrant with a local office. Each year the file is removed and updated. This would avoid all the photo-copying that still goes on. As Jingthing states, government pensions are for life. As are, military pensions.

 

 

Good luck with that!

 

I consider myself lucky if they can find my passport when I return for it the next day.

[dick dasterdly]

On 11/21/2018 at 11:47 PM, Jingthing said:

Exactly. Which is why there should be a compromise and go for the obvious, basic, simple lifetime income streams -- GOVERNMENT PENSIONS. Get them accepted and documented once so that the applicant and immigration doesn't need to do any new work every year.

 

42 minutes ago, stereolab said:

Thai Immigration needs to sort out its basic structure for recording information held at local offices for immigrants. Once you have arrived they need to raise a single file which contains all off the necessary paperwork to register the immigrant with a local office. Each year the file is removed and updated. This would avoid all the photo-copying that still goes on. As Jingthing states, government pensions are for life. As are, military pensions.

 

 

And what about company pensions??

 

They are also 'for life'.

 

I really don't understand why the odd poster is fixated on sorting out something that helps them personally - but doesn't help in the slightest way anyone obtaining income from other sources....

[spidermike007]

Why is the income statement from the embassy an issue, for guys with the required income? Shouldn't local bank statements, showing an income in excess of 65,000 a month, from abroad, for the past year be sufficient? That is far more "genuine" than the income affidavit from the embassy anyways. Is that not the point of the change? To validate real income?

 

Does anyone have clarification on this specific point?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, spidermike007 said:

Why is the income statement from the embassy an issue, for guys with the required income? Shouldn't local bank statements, showing an income in excess of 65,000 a month, from abroad, for the past year be sufficient? That is far more "genuine" than the income affidavit from the embassy anyways. Is that not the point of the change? To validate real income?

 

Does anyone have clarification on this specific point?

Because we don't yet know whether this will be accepted by TI.

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

13 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

That is far more "genuine" than the income affidavit from the embassy anyways. Is that not the point of the change? To validate real income?

 

Does anyone have clarification on this specific point?

Because we don't yet know whether this will be accepted by TI.

And it is actually less "genuine" - when you consider the income-letters were a "declaration under penalty of perjury" (Felony, for US and AU), so T.I. could have made referrals for prosecution where applicable to deter abuse.

 

"Deposits into a bank" don't really prove income, and there is nothing illegal about tricks to create this illusion of income, so the bar would be much lower.  Unless the goal is to increase expat-populations, I am skeptical this will be adopted as the new standard.  That said, I certainly hope immigration will be happy with just the deposits.  Thousands of new expat-retirees would be great for Thai businesses and employees, if it were. 

 

In hopes that "deposit proof" is at least part of whatever "new formula" might exist in the future, I have already changed my foreign-transfer patterns to "monthly," in order to suit what immigration is purported to maybe be wiling to accept in "bank-activity" patterns, which resemble "income," as per statements by the embassies. 

[spidermike007]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

And it is actually less "genuine" - when you consider the income-letters were a "declaration under penalty of perjury" (Felony, for US and AU), so T.I. could have made referrals for prosecution where applicable to deter abuse.

 

"Deposits into a bank" don't really prove income, and there is nothing illegal about tricks to create this illusion of income, so the bar would be much lower.  Unless the goal is to increase expat-populations, I am skeptical this will be adopted as the new standard.  That said, I certainly hope immigration will be happy with just the deposits.  Thousands of new expat-retirees would be great for Thai businesses and employees, if it were. 

 

In hopes that "deposit proof" is at least part of whatever "new formula" might exist in the future, I have already changed my foreign-transfer patterns to "monthly," in order to suit what immigration is purported to maybe be wiling to accept in "bank-activity" patterns, which resemble "income," as per statements by the embassies. 

 

Generally I would agree with the jest of your summary, except for the fact that the vast majority of guys I know, that were using the affidavit system, did not necessarily have the steady income to back up the statements. Therefore, they were less genuine. The perjury aspect is a minor one, in that I have never heard of either immigration of the home embassy prosecuting for that offense. 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. 

[Media1]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Generally I would agree with the jest of your summary, except for the fact that the vast majority of guys I know, that were using the affidavit system, did not necessarily have the steady income to back up the statements. Therefore, they were less genuine. The perjury aspect is a minor one, in that I have never heard of either immigration of the home embassy prosecuting for that offense. 

It's 2018 l are from a AAA credit rating country..All my financials are accessible online.

lt makes no difference to me. This thread is going on and on. l will actually still get my documents witnessed and certified. No problem. Immigration can play there games it's all directed at Muppets with no know how.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Media1

[JLCrab]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Deposits into a bank" don't really prove income, and there is nothing illegal about tricks to create this illusion of income,

I'll withdraw the previous post.

 

Thai Immigration might require that you sign a statement to the effect that your "not less than" 65K deposit each month is "new" money each month and, if it could be shown that it isn't, you have now made a false statement to a Thai government official acting in his/her official capacity.

 

It was one thing to make a false statement to a say US vice consul on an income affidavit when you knew the chances of anything adverse happening were close to zero. It is another thing to make a false statement in what is actually a police station before someone who an arrest you on the spot.

Edited November 25, 2018 by JLCrab

[Banana7]

5 hours ago, stereolab said:

Thai Immigration needs to sort out its basic structure for recording information held at local offices for immigrants. Once you have arrived they need to raise a single file which contains all off the necessary paperwork to register the immigrant with a local office. Each year the file is removed and updated. This would avoid all the photo-copying that still goes on. As Jingthing states, government pensions are for life. As are, military pensions.

 

 

Verifying a lifetime pension once is not adequate. Lifetime pensions can be reduced or discontinued and that includes State/Country pensions. Greek state pensions have been reduced 40-50% - Google it! Some company pension plans have been eliminated. Corporate America is famous for changing pension plans which includes: American Express, Union Carbide, Texaco, Lockheed, Harper & Row, A.&P. In fact, companies are takeover targets if their defined benefit plans accumulate a surplus. Companies can run a deficit in funding their pension plans and then go bankrupt, which results in retired people on pension losing their pension. Even if your pension is guaranteed by an assurance company - that company can go bankrupt resulting in no pension payments.

[Sheryl]

Thai Immigration needs to sort out its basic structure for recording information held at local offices for immigrants. Once you have arrived they need to raise a single file which contains all off the necessary paperwork to register the immigrant with a local office. Each year the file is removed and updated. This would avoid all the photo-copying that still goes on. As Jingthing states, government pensions are for life. As are, military pensions.
 
 

And many private pensions and annuities....

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

Verifying a lifetime pension once is not adequate. Lifetime pensions can be reduced or discontinued and that includes State/Country pensions. Greek state pensions have been reduced 40-50% - Google it! Some company pension plans have been eliminated. Corporate America is famous for changing pension plans which includes: American Express, Union Carbide, Texaco, Lockheed, Harper & Row, A.&P. In fact, companies are takeover targets if their defined benefit plans accumulate a surplus. Companies can run a deficit in funding their pension plans and then go bankrupt, which results in retired people on pension losing their pension. Even if your pension is guaranteed by an assurance company - that company can go bankrupt resulting in no pension payments.

Government pensions are usually for life and if anything they tend to go up, not down. If people are looking for 100 percent perfection in these processes, move to another planet. As I've looked at retirement visa policies in many countries, I can say it is quite common for there to be an initial application process where government pensions are verified ONCE and that's good for the life of the person's stay in that country. Private pensions are not and should not be regarded the same way. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Jingthing

[CharlieH]

Off topic and response removed.

[Media1]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I'll withdraw the previous post.

 

Thai Immigration might require that you sign a statement to the effect that your "not less than" 65K deposit each month is "new" money each month and, if it could be shown that it isn't, you have now made a false statement to a Thai government official acting in his/her official capacity.

 

It was one thing to make a false statement to a say US vice consul on an income affidavit when you knew the chances of anything adverse happening were close to zero. It is another thing to make a false statement in what is actually a police station before someone who an arrest you on the spot.

Pensions are for life. Thais play games because there pensions are terrible.

If there not smart enough to realise this. Then there's a serious education problem in Thailand. Which means it's hurting government operations. Which hurts the overall income for Thailand. All due to cowboys being silly lol.

[khastan]

Has Banana7 has correctly stated, I am sorry to say pensions are not guaranteed for life, including state pensions. Take for example how many people who's income will be severely affected that are currently receiving a UK state pension and are married to a Thai lady and receiving a very healthy dependents allowance for them. This allowance, I think it's approx 38% of your pension will be removed when this allowance stops for good in April 2020.

[Spidey]

Just now, khastan said:

Has Banana7 has correctly stated, I am sorry to say pensions are not guaranteed for life, including state pensions. Take for example how many people who's income will be severely affected that are currently receiving a UK state pension and are married to a Thai lady and receiving a very healthy dependents allowance for them. This allowance, I think it's approx 38% of your pension will be removed when this allowance stops for good in April 2020.

My company pension is guaranteed for life and is index linked (RPI). My state pension is guaranteed for life but it's yet to be seen if I receive the annual increase (CPI).

[khastan]

Okay I agree that some company pensions are guaranteed for life, I also receive a small pension guaranteed for life. However there would be nothing to stop a government changing the rules for receiving a pension to domiciled in the country it originates from.

[khastan]

Has for increases. My UK state pension will never increase has long has I live in Thailand unless there is a change in government policy. The chances of that are slim to non!

[Banana7]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Government pensions are usually for life and if anything they tend to go up, not down. If people are looking for 100 percent perfection in these processes, move to another planet. As I've looked at retirement visa policies in many countries, I can say it is quite common for there to be an initial application process where government pensions are verified ONCE and that's good for the life of the person's stay in that country. Private pensions are not and should not be regarded the same way. 

You can keep your head in the sand like an ostrich when danger approaches, or wake-up and take appropriate action. Many company pension plans have serious underfunding problems. These are current verifiable facts, and if you are retired from these companies and are a pensioner, thinking the cash flow is guaranteed, you may be about to wake-up to a reduced or non-existing pension. The below companies, who have tens of thousands of pensioners, have underfunded pension plans: (stated in Billions of USD!)

AT&T  USD$13.6B, Time Warner USD$45B, General Electric USD$31.1B, Delta Airlines USD$10.6B

Many more companies too!

 Government pension pretend to be guaranteed for life, but they can be changed by a new government. Brits have been screwed by their state pension plan. Australian state pensions had some rules changed so that their pension could be reduced if they are out of the country for x months a year.

 

Maybe USA is next?

USA has about USD$21.3 trillion in debt. A good way to reduce the debt is to cut social programs like Greece did. How about a 30% haircut to your SSA payment?

Edited November 25, 2018 by Banana7

[Spidey]

8 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

You can keep your head in the sand like an ostrich when danger approaches, or wake-up and take appropriate action. Many company pension plans have serious underfunding problems. These are current verifiable facts, and if you are retired from these companies and are a pensioner, thinking the cash flow is guaranteed, you may be about to wake-up to a reduced or non-existing pension. The below companies, who have tens of thousands of pensioners, have underfunded pension plans: (stated in Billions of USD!)

AT&T  USD$13.6B, Time Warner USD$45B, General Electric USD$31.1B, Delta Airlines USD$10.6B

Many more companies too!

 Government pension pretend to be guaranteed for life, but they can be changed by a new government. Brits have been screwed by their state pension plan. Australian state pensions had some rules changed so that their pension could be reduced if they are out of the country for x months a year.

 

Maybe USA is next?

USA has about USD$21.3 trillion in debt. A good way to reduce the debt is to cut social programs like Greece did. How about a 30% haircut to your SSA payment?

Not in the UK. Our government pensions haven't been screwed and, after government legislation a few years ago, company pensions are a lot closer to being fully funded, as mine is, and for those already retired the pension is guaranteed.

[Banana7]

25 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Not in the UK. Our government pensions haven't been screwed and, after government legislation a few years ago, company pensions are a lot closer to being fully funded, as mine is, and for those already retired the pension is guaranteed.

You are right, existing pensioners are ok at the moment. But the U.K. now has a $4 trillion retirement savings shortfall, which is projected to rise 4% a year and reach $33 trillion by 2050. UK GDP is $3 trillion - that is the entire economy! Lots of problems ahead.

 

Forbes predicts U.K. is headed for a retirement implosion as is most of Europe.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Banana7

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Thai Immigration might require that you sign a statement to the effect that your "not less than" 65K deposit each month is "new" money each month and, if it could be shown that it isn't, you have now made a false statement to a Thai government official acting in his/her official capacity.

And perhaps that could be validated by your embassy.....????

[Morty T]

On 11/17/2018 at 11:10 PM, samsensam said:

 

agree.

You should know there is a caveat there, if something should happen to you in terms of death, your spouse's Visa is nullified and void. They would have to start from square one. Marriage or dependent status is a cheaper option, but holds no safety guarantee for the dependent spouse.

[joeyg]

On 11/18/2018 at 5:54 PM, roquefort said:

The British Embassy always asked for proof of my pension income and I had to send them the same statements every year. It doesn't make sense that they are now saying they can't verify income, because that is exactly what they did.

No it's actually just a "rubber stamp"  anyone can make any figures up on a piece of paper.  the embassies don't contact your individual financial institutions to verify income.

[Issanjohn]

On 11/19/2018 at 2:54 AM, Spidey said:

They don't have to do anything. This is what we hope they will do. Somehow I doubt it.

Well I got my next one year extension done today over two full months early so as the US Embassy said they sure are supporting early renewals for US citizens at least I don’t know about everyone else.  And of course immigration did accept my income affidavit as they said they would.  Then when we were finished I asked immigration what I’d need to prove my income when I do my next visa extension in January 2020 and immigration told me that next time I’ll just need to bring in my bank statements showing that I make at least the minimum monthly income requirement of 40,000 baht a month coming from my home country and I make more than double that per month so case closed all good ????.  

 

This is why it pays to stick to the facts!  So nope you don’t necessarily have to have 400,000 or 800,000 baht in the bank as long as you do receive at least the minimum monthly income requirement.  So they are still following the law as I knew they would at least my immigration office is anyway.  Although I was very surprised that I got them to do my extension so early because it was not gonna expire till February 6th 2019!!!  Now I’m good till February 6th 2020!  So we’re celebrating that right now. The United States Embassy was right they are supporting early renewals during the transition period!!! ???? 

 

So don’t let anyone tell you that the monthly income requirement is gone it most certainly is here to stay.  I confirmed that again today when I picked up my passport with my new extension stamp in it done over two months early this year.  So early renewals really are actually a thing they are supporting.  

[wayned]

30 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

Well I got my next one year extension done today over two full months early so as the US Embassy said they sure are supporting early renewals for US citizens at least I don’t know about everyone else.  And of course immigration did accept my income affidavit as they said they would.  Then when we were finished I asked immigration what I’d need to prove my income when I do my next visa extension in January 2020 and immigration told me that next time I’ll just need to bring in my bank statements showing that I make at least the minimum monthly income requirement of 40,000 baht a month coming from my home country and I make more than double that per month so case closed all good ????.  

 

This is why it pays to stick to the facts!  So nope you don’t necessarily have to have 400,000 or 800,000 baht in the bank as long as you do receive at least the minimum monthly income requirement.  So they are still following the law as I knew they would at least my immigration office is anyway.  Although I was very surprised that I got them to do my extension so early because it was not gonna expire till February 6th 2019!!!  Now I’m good till February 6th 2020!  So we’re celebrating that right now. The United States Embassy was right they are supporting early renewals during the transition period!!! ???? 

 

So don’t let anyone tell you that the monthly income requirement is gone it most certainly is here to stay.  I confirmed that again today when I picked up my passport with my new extension stamp in it done over two months early this year.  So early renewals really are actually a thing they are supporting.  

What immigration office? It's good news but the only way that it will work throughout the country is if Immigration releases an internal order/directive outlining the new procedure so that all regional offices are made aware of the new system.

[wayned]

1 hour ago, Issanjohn said:

immigration told me that next time I’ll just need to bring in my bank statements showing that I make at least the minimum monthly income requirement of 40,000 baht a month coming from my home country

That is also another change, in the past, at least for a marriage extension, there was no requirement that the 40000 baht/month had to come from overseas, I worked here and the monthly amount that I declared came from within Thailand. There was also no requirement that it had to be shown as a deposit in a Thai bank account.

 

I understand the change in the requirement for a retirement extension, but in the past the 65000 baht/month did not have to be deposited in a Thai bank account.  You could have it deposited in a bank in your home country and transfer what you wanted, when you needed it.

 

If these changes are properly documented and accepted by all immigration offices in the future, they are "workable" at least for me.  The key is that they are properly documented accepted by all immigration offices and not have each one "dream" up their own requirements.

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, Issanjohn said:

I asked immigration what I’d need to prove my income when I do my next visa extension in January 2020 and immigration told me that next time I’ll just need to bring in my bank statements showing that I make at least the minimum monthly income requirement of 40,000 baht a month coming from my home country

Well good to hear that. Maybe that will work and maybe not but, as of last month, I started a monthly FTT SWIFT deposit of "not less that" 65K baht into my Thai bank anyway.

[CharlieH]

4 hours ago, Issanjohn said:

Well I got my next one year extension done today over two full months early so as the US Embassy said they sure are supporting early renewals for US citizens at least I don’t know about everyone else.  And of course immigration did accept my income affidavit as they said they would.  Then when we were finished I asked immigration what I’d need to prove my income when I do my next visa extension in January 2020 and immigration told me that next time I’ll just need to bring in my bank statements showing that I make at least the minimum monthly income requirement of 40,000 baht a month coming from my home country and I make more than double that per month so case closed all good ????.  

 

This is why it pays to stick to the facts!  So nope you don’t necessarily have to have 400,000 or 800,000 baht in the bank as long as you do receive at least the minimum monthly income requirement.  So they are still following the law as I knew they would at least my immigration office is anyway.  Although I was very surprised that I got them to do my extension so early because it was not gonna expire till February 6th 2019!!!  Now I’m good till February 6th 2020!  So we’re celebrating that right now. The United States Embassy was right they are supporting early renewals during the transition period!!! ???? 

 

So don’t let anyone tell you that the monthly income requirement is gone it most certainly is here to stay.  I confirmed that again today when I picked up my passport with my new extension stamp in it done over two months early this year.  So early renewals really are actually a thing they are supporting.  

Absolutely meaningless without stating WHERE !

AND immigration allowed you to do it 60 days early , I find that very hard to believe.

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Well good to hear that. Maybe that will work and maybe not but, as of last month, I started a monthly FTT SWIFT deposit of "not less that" 65K baht into my Thai bank anyway.

Doing the same here, albeit it's more to move cash over each month whilst I'm still working, I doubt I'll need it come extension time as I've maintained the 800K in the Bank since getting my Non-O visa but I need the money for spends anyway so it doesn't hurt.

 

NB. I'm only doing this as SGD/THB is at a reasonably good level (24.04 Vs 10yr high of 26.31), if I had to use my UK monies I wouldn't be doing it (GBP/THB 42.09 Vs 10 yr high of 57.79) so I can fully understand my fellow Brits wanting to hang fire to see how things pan out with Brexit (I'm certainly doing that before changing any cash I have/earn in the UK)

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Mike Teavee