Solar power is it worth it

[notagain]

23 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

However panels don't last that long

If you buy quality panels (kyocera, panasonic, etc.) they will have a 25 year warranty and these companies have been around a long time and will honor their warranty, not so much with many chinese off brands with a 1-5 year warranty and the company may be gone by then. Unfortunately here in thailand you cant get good quality equipment due to the high import duties unless you want to pay for it. I have only seen deep cycle lead acid batts here for solar, whereas back home the battery technology/types are way more advanced with much longer life (and about as cheap as a lead acid here). I dont like tesla but their lithium powerwall packs are on my maybe list.

[ding]

I love solar. The issue is dispatchable energy ... power when the sun is down. 

Tesla has a power wall but the return on investment is long.

If you're home using energy while the sun is up it's a good deal.

If you're working during most of the daylight hours and home at night... not so much.

Battery storage is an issue.

Bill Gates has an interesting Ted Talk from several years back on this problem.

[Yellowtail]

If solar were economically viable virtually every commercial and industrial building on the planet would be covered with them. 

[Enki]

Why? Why would a office building spent the time and money? Their job is to provide office services, not electric power.

[ThaiBunny]

14 minutes ago, Enki said:

Why? Why would a office building spent the time and money? Their job is to provide office services, not electric power.

They might believe that offering solar power may attract tenants to them rather than someone else.  Everyone needs a product differentiator these days it seems ????

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, Enki said:

Why? Why would a office building spent the time and money? Their job is to provide office services, not electric power.

So an office building that provides office services has no interest in saving money on electricity?

 

 

[Tagged]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:09 AM, Arjen said:

Short...

 

 

When you do it to save money, forget it.

 

I am using a long time solar. My own supply costs me around 10x more then supply from grid. But I have electricity when the neighbours do not have.....

 

Arjen.

Im trying to figure out about solar panels myself, for exactly same reasons, but Im asking you, why not only buy batteries and charge them from the grid? Save alot of money? 

 

I would be happy to install solar power, but not before there is a demand from the marked to get retur  of our excess production.

 

 

[Enki]

On 3/26/2019 at 1:19 AM, Yellowtail said:

So an office building that provides office services has no interest in saving money on electricity?

 

 

Not necessarily, no. They rent out the offices, and bottom line the renters pay the bill.

On top of that large scale solar power often has laws which makes it to cumbersome to install them. For instance fire security. You can not use water in a burning building that has a huge solar installation: because it would electrocute the fire fighters. So you need several things: an easy to access place where you even under fire conditions can disconnect the solar farm from the grid, and special automatic fire fighting systems that don't use water.

Solar power actually is already the cheapest power on the planet, well arguable wind is cheaper, but for that you would need really big installations. No idea how much power actually costs in Thailand. My wife and me use so less power that we usually get it for free. Over  course of 5months we payed 160TBH.

So I guess outside of BKK or Chiang Mai (assuming they have the highest power prices) it is a long term investment.

There are plenty of other forums where people talk about solar. I just saw a farmer called Mr Kie (

... pretty far at the end)

 

He is investing 87,000 TBH into a 3kW solar installation, but with option of grid feed in. He estimates that he has an return of investment of about 10 years.

Another 10years he has current for free and gets paid a small fee for the feed in. After that likely he has to replace the inverter, but the panels go another 10 - 20 years.

And that is a farm in Isaan where power prices are probably the lowest.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Enki said:

Not necessarily, no. They rent out the offices, and bottom line the renters pay the bill.

On top of that large scale solar power often has laws which makes it to cumbersome to install them. For instance fire security. You can not use water in a burning building that has a huge solar installation: because it would electrocute the fire fighters. So you need several things: an easy to access place where you even under fire conditions can disconnect the solar farm from the grid, and special automatic fire fighting systems that don't use water.

Solar power actually is already the cheapest power on the planet, well arguable wind is cheaper, but for that you would need really big installations. No idea how much power actually costs in Thailand. My wife and me use so less power that we usually get it for free. Over  course of 5months we payed 160TBH.

So I guess outside of BKK or Chiang Mai (assuming they have the highest power prices) it is a long term investment.

There are plenty of other forums where people talk about solar. I just saw a farmer called Mr Kie (

... pretty far at the end)

 

He is investing 87,000 TBH into a 3kW solar installation, but with option of grid feed in. He estimates that he has an return of investment of about 10 years.

Another 10years he has current for free and gets paid a small fee for the feed in. After that likely he has to replace the inverter, but the panels go another 10 - 20 years.

And that is a farm in Isaan where power prices are probably the lowest.

 

The less the renters pay for electricity, the more money they can pay for rent.

 

One would assume the solar panels would be on the roof, above the fire sprinklers. In any event, building are already full of electrical equipment. 

 

I think hydro is far and away the cheapest and cleanest way to produce electricity. 

 

How long do the batteries last? I would not consider a ten year pay-back economically feasible. 

 

3kW, what's that, lights, TV and a fridge? 

[Enki]

He is not using batteries, he is feeding int the grid and gets from the grid.

More like 5 fridges and 5 washing machines ... or 30 TVs, your millage may vary, though.

[natura]

Hi Guys,

I'd like to introduce a guide book for DIY project: PV Solar rooftop for Air-con-12000 Btu. I hope this would be useful for your solar power project. You can download document from the right-top on screen at https://www.enphase-thailand.com/how-it-works

cheers,

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, natura said:

Hi Guys,

I'd like to introduce a guide book for DIY project: PV Solar rooftop for Air-con-12000 Btu. I hope this would be useful for your solar power project. You can download document from the right-top on screen at https://www.enphase-thailand.com/how-it-works

cheers,

 

 

Have you installed this?

 

How much did it cost?

 

How much were the batteries, and how long do they last?

[natura]

34 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Have you installed this?

 

How much did it cost?

 

How much were the batteries, and how long do they last?

>Yes I did and there are many testimonials such as many of cell sites, you may see on the document. Included with followings; 

>The guide is showing bill of materials, all cost is about 52K. 

>The system is on-grid without batteries. 

>The system is expected lifetime about 25 years.   

[kamalabob2]

You can speak English in several provinces, face to face, with solar installers. My wife is keen to have solar air conditioning and solar heated hot water in a Buriram Village home. The solar powered DC brushless submersible well pumps have proven a popular item in her village. 

[ThaiBunny]

There's a rough and ready calculation. Add up your power bills for a year. Then you have to add in some sort of percentage for the electricity you burn when the sun ain't shining, day and night.  30%, 40%? How much does your fridge and aircon and tv and lights use, for example. Divide the cost of the solar panels by that annual total and that's the minimum period it would take to "pay back" the cost of the panels. You'll likely find it's break even at best over 5 - 10 years

Edited April 8, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[AgentSmith]

I'm looking into solar myself and I was wondering. Despite the difficult rules to sell back electricity to the grid and all.. What's keeping me from plugging in a single panel plus micro inverter setup into a wall socket? There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid. Not that I expect to make any money nor is that the goal and I would eventually size up the solar array according to my needs.

 

Those panels are getting cheaper by the month so it's becoming more and more attractive as an investment. Which makes me wonder how the power company is going to deal with this when the solar market explodes. Developed countries are struggling with managing the ever increasing power production during the day despite having a modern grid. Surely they can't be prepared for that here.

[Crossy]

3 hours ago, AgentSmith said:

What's keeping me from plugging in a single panel plus micro inverter setup into a wall socket? There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid.

 

In reality, so long as the meter isn't going backwards when the meter reader calls (and he notices), nobody will ever know.

 

Grid stability is indeed becoming an issue in some countries with a large proportion of renewables. With less and less rotating mass (flywheel effect) attached to the grid the frequency can fluctuate relatively rapidly which in turn can trip out generating capacity, before you know it the grid has gone dark.

 

Over the years I've looked at (and not installed yet) hybrid solar which runs grid-tie but also has a battery bank. You can set the inverter to "do not export" so any excess power goes into the batteries which you can then use when the sun is sleeping. It has the added advantage that if the supply goes off you still have battery (and the panels if it's light) to supply at least some of your power.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, AgentSmith said:

What's keeping me from plugging in a single panel plus micro inverter setup into a wall socket? There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid. Not that I expect to make any money nor is that the goal and I would eventually size up the solar array according to my needs

Nothing to stop you.

 

But don't forget that if you have such a setup you can also kill the PEA worker who now has a live 22kv line, that is supposed to be dead as he has isolated it, because you are pushing back into the grid.

 

If you are going to backfeed do it correctly with a grid tie inverter  that cuts off when the grid goes down, so will not kill off the PEA staff.

[natura]

 

6 hours ago, AgentSmith said:

I'm looking into solar myself and I was wondering. Despite the difficult rules to sell back electricity to the grid and all.. What's keeping me from plugging in a single panel plus micro inverter setup into a wall socket? There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid. Not that I expect to make any money nor is that the goal and I would eventually size up the solar array according to my needs.

 

Those panels are getting cheaper by the month so it's becoming more and more attractive as an investment. Which makes me wonder how the power company is going to deal with this when the solar market explodes. Developed countries are struggling with managing the ever increasing power production during the day despite having a modern grid. Surely they can't be prepared for that here.

The Enphase Micro Inverter has solution called 'Zero Export' by using Envoy Metered Communications Gateway' it's working by compares CTs on consumption & production. It's lowered power when production is greater than consumption. More details, https://www.enphase-thailand.com/product-page/enphase-iq-envoy-metered-communications-gateway.

Edited April 22, 2019 by natura

[natura]

1 hour ago, natura said:

 

The Enphase Micro Inverter has solution called 'Zero Export' by using Envoy Metered Communications Gateway' it's working by compares CTs on consumption & production. It's lowered power when production is greater than consumption. More details, https://www.enphase-thailand.com/product-page/enphase-iq-envoy-metered-communications-gateway.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, AgentSmith said:

There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid.

You are wrong there.

 

Just start having negative readings on your meter, or maybe reduce your consumptive too low too quickly, and you will quickly see that there are meters that will not run backwards, because at a minimum you will have one fitted. You may even be unlucky enough to have a visit by a PEA inspection team.

 

Those  meters are more expensive so not completely used.

[Fruit Trader]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Nothing to stop you.

 

But don't forget that if you have such a setup you can also kill the PEA worker who now has a live 22kv line, that is supposed to be dead as he has isolated it, because you are pushing back into the grid.

 

If you are going to backfeed do it correctly with a grid tie inverter  that cuts off when the grid goes down, so will not kill off the PEA staff.

A micro inverter should handle loss of grid power in the same way as a central inverter would. 

[utalkin2me]

On 2/21/2019 at 4:15 AM, CharlieH said:

Someone I know who lives near, spent a large amount of money on an entire roof full of approx 2ft x 4ft panels, I wont go through the whole story but the bottom line.

It never worked, wasnt installed right, never had the agreements or connection to the "grid" promised , they didnt even exist and werent allowed either. All the promises turned to sh** and it was a complete con job, he got taken for a ride. He took them to court, got 300k judgement but has never been able to collect and now has, as last I knew, a shed full of around 40+ unused German solar panels.

Man that does not sound like a good gamble. Even if it would have worked perfectly there has got to be maintenance in all this rain etc. And what is the upside, your bill goes down by 50%? 

[AgentSmith]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Nothing to stop you.

 

But don't forget that if you have such a setup you can also kill the PEA worker who now has a live 22kv line, that is supposed to be dead as he has isolated it, because you are pushing back into the grid.

 

If you are going to backfeed do it correctly with a grid tie inverter  that cuts off when the grid goes down, so will not kill off the PEA staff. 

No worries. I do my research well. It's ill advised for a number of reasons to not have it cut off when the grid goes down. And when you don't have a battery backup of course. I've been looking into this stuff for over 10 years and it's only now becoming affordable in Thailand.

 

Above a certain amount of solar power I would also definitely have a separate group installed by an electrician.

 

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are wrong there.

 

Just start having negative readings on your meter, or maybe reduce your consumptive too low too quickly, and you will quickly see that there are meters that will not run backwards, because at a minimum you will have one fitted. You may even be unlucky enough to have a visit by a PEA inspection team.

 

Those  meters are more expensive so not completely used.

What do you mean by wrong? I haven't investigated the meter type yet so it might as well rotate backwards. Which is fine during the day as long as by the end of the month it still shows a higher amount than the month before. And they are welcome for inspection to only find proper safe devices in use. Again I don't really know about the rules and that's simply something I have yet to look into. As of now I'm merely researching the local situation.

[AgentSmith]

15 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Man that does not sound like a good gamble. Even if it would have worked perfectly there has got to be maintenance in all this rain etc. And what is the upside, your bill goes down by 50%? 

Isn't that the point of a PV installation, having a lower monthly bill? The story does sound a bit reckless. But also weird because those panels are probably fine which means someone should've been able to connect the wires correctly. Putting them in storage is making the worst out of a bad situation.

[sometimewoodworker]

35 minutes ago, AgentSmith said:

What do you mean by wrong?

Your statement, that I quoted, was wrong 

here it is again.

10 hours ago, AgentSmith said:

There are only these old style analog revolving power meters here so there's no way they can prevent me from 'pushing' back into the grid.

 

35 minutes ago, AgentSmith said:

And they are welcome for inspection to only find proper safe devices in use. Again I don't really know about the rules and that's simply something I have yet to look into. 

If there is an inspection, not likely but possible, you will (or they will) disconnect everything that is connected to the grid.

 

The rules do not permit you to do what you are suggesting, but TIT.

 

Mostly with proper setups and the meter never going negative or your consumption dropping from 2,000 units per month down to 10 for example the PEA will not bother to check and you will be OK. That is the way most people reduce the bills.

 

The meter readers don't usually look too hard at the way the meter is spinning, they are just interested in the numbers,  they might take notice if the backfeed is so high that the numbers are going down before their eyes.

 

if you have a standalone setup with no grid tie you are OK.

Edited April 22, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[AgentSmith]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Your statement, that I quoted, was wrong 

here it is again.

 

Aren't Holley analog meters able to rotate backwards then?

 

Quote

 

If there is an inspection, not likely but possible, you will (or they will) disconnect everything that is connected to the grid.

 

The rules do not permit you to do what you are suggesting, but TIT.

 

Mostly with proper setups and the meter never going negative or your consumption dropping from 2,000 units per month down to 10 for example the PEA will not bother to check and you will be OK. That is the way most people reduce the bills.

 

The meter readers don't usually look too hard at the way the meter is spinning, they are just interested in the numbers,  they might take notice if the backfeed is so high that the numbers are going down before their eyes.

 

Of course they might also notice a couple of large panels on the roof. If grid-tying a PV setup is not allowed at all then I can't be bothered. I simply won't invest if there's a chance I have to disconnect it, effectively rendering it useless without spending the same amount again in batteries. That would push the break-even point way further into the future. I'd rather keep my money on the bank then.

Edited April 22, 2019 by AgentSmith

[sometimewoodworker]

 

27 minutes ago, AgentSmith said:

Aren't Holley analog meters able to rotate backwards then?

To Repeat my answer 

 

Just start having negative readings on your meter, or maybe reduce your consumptive too low too quickly, and you will quickly see that there are meters that will not run backwards, because at a minimum you will have one fitted. 

[Naam]

why don't you tell us how much you invested to produce 155kWh daily and in what country is the cost of 1kWh $0.38?

 

summary: your claim seems to be as fake as a three-dollar-bill

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Naam said:

why don't you tell us how much you invested to produce 155kWh daily and in what country is the cost of 1kWh $0.38?

 

summary: your claim seems to be as fake as a three-dollar-bill

It's typical US spam, though probably posting from India 

Edited July 4, 2019 by sometimewoodworker