My Experience Extending my Retirement "Visa" last Friday.

[steve73]

On Friday I did my annual retirement extension, using 3 months of savings over 800k. This was my 9th extension all on the same basis and at the same office.

　

Firstly to my bank to get the account verification letter and 3 month itemized statement (since I'd not updated my bank book since my previous extension last February). I also enquired what fixed deposit accounts they offered, and whether they would be "instant access". It was explained that a 12month FD would pay 1.55%/yr, 24mon @1.7%/yr, and 36mon @1.85%/yr. Any withdrawal inside the agreed period would result in a penalty loss of interest back to their standard saving account rate of 0.5%. They advised a "Certificate of Residence" would be required to open any new accounts unless holding a work permit.

　

At Immigration it all went reasonably smoothly, as I'd expected. I was surprised that there were no notices about the changing rules, and no comment was made by the officer issuing my new extension so I asked about them. As it was fairly quiet I was invited to talk to the Senior Officer, to review these "new" options. It was all pretty much as I'd expected, other than that they are applying the new rules immediately as each new extension is made.

 

3 ways for financial proof. Income, Savings, & Combo.

　

Income:

If your embassy is still providing a Letter of Income you must obtain & use it. If you're from one of the 4 that no longer provide a LoI (existing LoI's less than 6 months old are still OK), you must now show a minimum of 65k coming into your Thai bank account from overseas every month. You can't do a double transfer and then miss a month or miss a month and then make it up after. I asked if it had to be from a "pension" or would using saving/investment be OK. No problems where it comes from as long as you deposit in (from overseas) roughly the same amount every month.

Note about using Transferwise (or similar Fx services):

I had just made a Transferwise payment into my K-bank account a few days previously, which had been credited via TMB so it was coded as a Dummy transfer in my passbook & statement, I asked if this was acceptable confirmation of overseas source. The officer wasn't interested in the code or description in my bank book or on the itemized statement, and wouldn't take any notice of the Transferwise receipt that I'd printed off. She said that if I wanted to use the income method the bank would provide an annual statement showing only the international deposits. All other itemized transactions are not required to be shown. (This is what I understood what was being asked for.) Any month with the income less than 65k would result in the extension being denied.

I forgot to ask about the interim rules for anyone who has only just started sending their required income to their Thai bank - sorry!

　

Savings:

Pretty much as we already understand. Initially the 800k must be seasoned for 3 months (or 2 for a first extension of a non-Immigrant visa) prior to your extension. The account must then remain above 800k for 3 months following the extension, above 400k for the next 6 months, and then back above 800k for the last 3 months prior to the next extension. If the balance drops below these limits it would be the next extension that would be denied. I asked what if next years extension was longer than 12 months after todays (since I was almost 30 days early this year, and could be later next year). She said I would need a statement from the date of my previous extension (i.e. today) to the date of applying next time. She said most banks currently require a weeks notice to provide a 12 month (or longer) statement, so to arrange things with them in plenty of time. I asked if keeping the passbook up to date with no consolidated entries would be acceptable - she said they preferred a signed & stamped bank statement coving the required period since you have to get an account verification letter anyway. I asked if she accepted Fixed Deposit accounts and was told no problem, providing the account allows instant access. She was very clear that this is their preferred account method since it would normally show fewer transactions that needed checking, and easier for the officers to confirm.

　

Combination:

Again, what we expected. The total income, either with an embassy letter (if available) or deposited from overseas (with bank statement proof as above), but still requiring at least one deposit EVERY month (so not suitable for people who receive the pension quarterly - I specifically asked that). Plus a savings amount that when added to the total income was at least 800k.

She carefully explained that an example of 40k/month of income, i.e. 480/yr, would require a minimum of 320k in the bank for 3 months prior to the next extension and 3 months after, and a minimum for the rest of the year of 1/2 that figure, i.e 160k. This would require a 1 year (+) itemized bank statement showing the balance had not dropped below these, in addition to a bank statement showing just the international deposits during the past 12 months; (I may have misunderstood the need for 2 separate statements).

She again commented that this combo method would require close monitoring throughout the year by each applicant to ensure the totals and durations were clearly being observed or the next extension would be denied, and again reiterated that the 800k left untouched in a fixed deposit account was Immigration's preferred method.

 

We had a short side-track discussion about health insurance, when I asked that I could need to utilise that for any emergency problems, and if so would that diqualify me next year.  Yes, it would disqualify me next year if my balance dropped below the required minimums.  She recommended taking up some insurance, although understood my reluctance due to pre-conditions that would still  remain uninsured.   

　

I didn't ask about the "marriage/dependent" visa, as I'd already taken up more than half an hour of her time, and didn't want to overstay my welcome. She did encourage me to relay this info to my friends.

　

I decided to go with follow up the recommendation of using a Fixed Deposit account, and so got a Certificate of Residence (for the usual 500bt donation) necessary to open a new account.

　

Back into my original bank and opened a 24 month FD account and transferred just over 800k into it from my regular (savings) account. At least this will earn me an extra 1.2% or 9600bt per year, with the benefit of a much reduced risk of inadvertently dropping the balance below the required minimums.

　

　

My recommendation would be that anyone who is unsure of the new rules go into your local Imm. Office well ahead of time and ask what will be required, since it already seems (from various reports I've seen here on ThaiVisa & elsewhere) that some of the offices are interpreting some of these latest regulations a little differently from others, and also discuss with your bank what statement they can provide.

　

I make no apologies for the length of this submission - I wanted to try make things as clear as I could.

 

[Mavideol]

you forgot to mention where was this done because it appears that the requirements vary from IMO to IMO office.... and BTW the topic has been covered at length that's getting repetitively boring

[steven100]

Thank you steve. very helpful post.

[DrJack54]

Great report. Thanks. Could I ask which bank you use.

[steve73]

56 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Great report. Thanks. Could I ask which bank you use.

Kasikorn

[Pib]

 

Quote

She said that if I wanted to use the income method the bank would provide an annual statement showing only the international deposits

 

I'm wondering if Thai banks will actually do this or this is just something immigration officers think should be easy to get.  Now, I'm sure it could be done but would require the bank to key in on select codes.  Guess we'll find out over the coming months are more after extension reports flow in.

 

Quote

...you must now show a minimum of 65k coming into your Thai bank account from overseas every month. You can't do a double transfer and then miss a month or miss a month and then make it up after. I asked if it had to be from a "pension" or would using saving/investment be OK.

And this is going to be a problem where pensions are "normally" posted to a person's account the first few days of every month but "occasionally due to weekends/holidays" a payment may be paid/post early.  So early you actually reflect two payments for that month and no payments for the following month. Like a U.S. social security payment on 3 Aug and another one on 31 Aug (the 31 Aug payment would normally occur on 3 Sep but 3 Sep/Mon was a US holiday preceded by the weekend so it was paid early).  This  periodically happens with various US govt benefit payments like U.S. social security,  military retirement, Veteran's Administration, etc.

 

[bkk6060]

37 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

And this is going to be a problem where pensions are "normally" posted to a person's account the first few days of every month but "occasionally due to weekends/holidays" a payment may be paid/post early.  So early you actually reflect two payments for that month and no payments for the following month. Like a U.S. social security payment on 3 Aug and another one on 31 Aug (the 31 Aug payment would normally occur on 3 Sep but 3 Sep/Mon was a US holiday preceded by the weekend so it was paid early).  This  periodically happens with various US govt benefit payments like U.S. social security,  military retirement, Veteran's Administration, etc.

 

I guess if one directly transfers their pension into a Thai bank, which is not the way to do it.

 

As long as it says ¨international transfer¨ into the Thai bank they are fine.

 

I use Chase bank.  My retirement payment goes into Chase on the first of every month.  Then I transfer it into Bangkok Bank when I want.  The transfer into Bangkok Bank reads ¨international transfer¨ and that is all they want to see.  

[Henryford]

Very helpful again Steve73. Looks like we all need to ask our banks if they will provide these statements of overseas income. If not we are F***ed.

[Pib]

And here's a prime example of how some US govt benefit payments may get paid early in some months causing two payments to reflect for one month and none for the following month.  Below is a snapshot for the U.S. Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) showing the retirement pension payment date for 2019.  Military retirement pensions are normally paid on the 1st of each month.  Notice no payments are shown for Jan, Jun, and Sep but the payments were indeed made just on the very tail end of the previous month due to weekend/holiday requiring slightly early payment.   This will occur year after year  for some months since the payments is scheduled for the 1st day of the month but weekends/holidays cause early payment frequently. 

 

And this will occasionally happen with social security payments paid on the 3rd day of month for folks with foreign addresses on file with SSA.  It happened in 2018 for Aug & Sep where the Sep payment occurred on 31 Aug....so, two payments for Aug but none for Sep.  Fortunately, from looking at the SSA website for future payment dates, for 2019 & 2020 this will not happen for social security payments. Can't speak to 2021 and beyond as the SSA website doesn't show beyond 2020.

 

Hopefully, immigration is going to find other cases like this where pension payments from the US/UK/AU/DK and will bend their rules a little because the pension is still being paid monthly/approx every 30 days....it's just when the pension is normally programmed for the first few days of the month it sometimes gets paid early due to weekends/holidays to comply with US law.

 

DFAS Military Retirement Pay Dates

[ChouDoufu]

2 hours ago, steve73 said:

Firstly to my bank to get the account verification letter and 3 month itemized statement

is this required where you are?  CW only requires the guarantee letter showing current balance along with the passbook.  i use a fixed account, with no transactions, so there are only 2 or 3 updates all with the same balance (unless interest added).  i have a separate savings to show money flow, but so far not asked.

 

2 hours ago, steve73 said:

Initially the 800k must be seasoned for 3 months (or 2 for a first extension of a non-Immigrant visa) prior to your extension. The account must then remain above 800k for 3 months following

i thought the new order directed 2 months prior and 3 months after for all applications.

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I guess if one directly transfers their pension into a Thai bank, which is not the way to do it.

 

As long as it says ¨international transfer¨ into the Thai bank they are fine.

 

I use Chase bank.  My retirement payment goes into Chase on the first of every month.  Then I transfer it into Bangkok Bank when I want.  The transfer into Bangkok Bank reads ¨international transfer¨ and that is all they want to see.  

If you are using "ACH" transfer from Chase Bank  to Bangkok Bank you will no longer be able to use that method beginning 1 Apr 19 unless Chase uses ACH "IAT" format---and it highly, highly doubtful they use IAT format.  Now if you are using SWIFT then that will continue to work.  

[allane]

30 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

is this required where you are?  CW only requires the guarantee letter showing current balance along with the passbook.  i use a fixed account, with no transactions, so there are only 2 or 3 updates all with the same balance (unless interest added).  i have a separate savings to show money flow, but so far not asked.

 

i thought the new order directed 2 months prior and 3 months after for all applications.

The developing consensus on here seems to be that it remains as before; 2+3 for first-time applications, 3+3for renewals.

[phuketrichard]

6 minutes ago, allane said:

The developing consensus on here seems to be that it remains as before; 2+3 for first-time applications, 3+3for renewals.

Best to ask BEFORE 3 months at ur local immigration that will do ur extension.

Phuket says 2 before, 3 after

[steve73]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

 

 

I'm wondering if Thai banks will actually do this or this is just something immigration officers think should be easy to get.  Now, I'm sure it could be done but would require the bank to key in on select codes.  Guess we'll find out over the coming months are more after extension reports flow in.

 

And this is going to be a problem where pensions are "normally" posted to a person's account the first few days of every month but "occasionally due to weekends/holidays" a payment may be paid/post early.  So early you actually reflect two payments for that month and no payments for the following month. Like a U.S. social security payment on 3 Aug and another one on 31 Aug (the 31 Aug payment would normally occur on 3 Sep but 3 Sep/Mon was a US holiday preceded by the weekend so it was paid early).  This  periodically happens with various US govt benefit payments like U.S. social security,  military retirement, Veteran's Administration, etc.

 

I got the impression that Imm. knew what types of statement the banks could produce, that would best suit them.  Anyone considering using income (or combo) needs to discuss with their bank ahead of time to confirm this.

 

I wasn't aware that some regular payments could be a day or two early or late, so I hadn't framed my question towards that.  I'd asked specifically about quarterly pension payments, or ah-hoc payments like I do when the rate's look good, and both were a no-no. 

I would suggest anyone who has pensions that fall across month end discuss with your own Imm office, as I'm sure they could be a bit more flexible in that event, or failing that see if your pension provider can better sequence the payments.  You could get it paid into your foreign account and you sequence the transfers to suit, although this may entail slightly additional costs. 

[steve73]

50 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

is this required where you are?  CW only requires the guarantee letter showing current balance along with the passbook.  i use a fixed account, with no transactions, so there are only 2 or 3 updates all with the same balance (unless interest added).  i have a separate savings to show money flow, but so far not asked.

 

i thought the new order directed 2 months prior and 3 months after for all applications.

This year I was using a regular saving account for both the 800k and daily expenses, so the 3 month itemized letter was necessary (since I rarely update my passbook) as well as the guarantee letter ... I'm sure it will be easier next year using a FD account with (hopefully) no movements of funds... 

 

As others are indicating the 2mon vs. 3mon pre-seasoning is one of the topics where there seems inconsistency between regional offices.  Best to check your own office, or ensure 3mon to be on the safe side. (Or use a FD account if possible and make it really simple for them.) 

[PAWNEESE]

"I forgot to ask about the interim rules for anyone who has only just started sending their required income to their Thai bank - sorry!"

 

I got many months before my next renewal so no drama  .. but I am assuming as the new rules officially start March 1st .. that my importing the required sum each month starting this March fulfils the rules. 

 

Previously income could be in home country. But Im from a fab 4 country.

 

I will have "only"  9 monthly imports. I believe some big boss .. maybe it was BJ said flexibility / lenience will be granted this first year but strict 12 months imports required in future.

 

But worrying a tiny bit I may get an IO on a bad day. I guess many will be in same position.

 

I know .. Im being an old woman "worrying" about it. ???????????????????????? But it got me thinking. 

 

Getting the question answered useful me thinks. Other officers wont have same ruling but good to follow what the "bleep" is supposed to / may happen.

 

Helpful OP.

Edited February 24, 2019 by PAWNEESE

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, PAWNEESE said:

I got many months before my next renewal so no drama  .. but I am assuming as the new rules officially start March 1st .. that my doing the required sum each month starting this March fulfils the rules. 

The new rules allowing proof of income to be 65k or 40k (for marriage) being transferred into the country came into effect on December 21st when the order was issued. I am sure 9 months of transfers will be accepted.

Only the new rules for the 800k baht in the bank option go into effect in on March 1st.

[Pib]

27 minutes ago, steve73 said:

I would suggest anyone who has pensions that fall across month end discuss with your own Imm office, as I'm sure they could be a bit more flexible in that event, or failing that see if your pension provider can better sequence the payments.  You could get it paid into your foreign account and you sequence the transfers to suit, although this may entail slightly additional costs. 

While you could possibly arrange another monthly payment date if your pension is being paid from a civilian company (I know I could for some future IRA/401K payments), a person is not going to get the U.S. govt to switch his payment date among the tens of millions benefit/pension payments that the US social security, military, civil service, VA, etc., make every month. 

 

Your payment is locked into the US govt payment schedule like for folks with a foreign/Thailand address on-file with social security your monthly payment is normally the 3rd day of each month, unless it paid a little early due to a weekend/holiday.  If you do not have a foreign/Thailand address on file then its paid on the second, third or fourth Wednesday of each month depending on your birth date unless you stated receiving SS payments before 1997 then you are paid on the 3rd of the month like folks with non-US addresses. 

 

But anyway, millions of US govt payments occur the first few days of each month and sometimes due to a weekend/holiday they get paid a little earlier as required by US law.  Immigration will become aware of this throughout the year as many US folks using the income or combo method based on their US govt payments will present application paperwork not showing a payment for "every" month....especially those relying on a US military retirement pension.

[Pib]

@ steve73,

   And by the way, excellent info you have given on your Friday extension/Q&A session with the immigration officer. 

   Wouldn't it be great if immigration would hold some briefings....say a two hour long Q&A session on date and time XYZ....open to the public.  But I expect they know that would turn into somewhat of a "complaint/you should have done it this way" session and Thais want to avoid any type of conflict/argument.

 

Cheers,

  Pib

[lamyai3]

4 hours ago, steve73 said:

If the balance drops below these limits it would be the next extension that would be denied.

This whole business of retroactive denial of extension is so much more complicated than the system it replaced. What would happen for instance if someone was using the income method, and then perhaps due to a missed month or something decided three months prior to the next extension decided to import the 800k for seasoning. Would they be judged on the seasoning, plus the activity in the prior 9 months? Never in the past has an extension been granted or denied based on whether or not you stepped outside the lines on the previous year's extension. 

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

This whole business of retroactive denial of extension is so much more complicated than the system it replaced. What would happen for instance if someone was using the income method, and then perhaps due to a missed month or something decided three months prior to the next extension decided to import the 800k for seasoning. Would they be judged on the seasoning, plus the activity in the prior 9 months? Never in the past has an extension been granted or denied based on whether or not you stepped outside the lines on the previous year's extension. 

That a good example...real bucket of worms with the new rules.  Seems the way the rules are written there is little or no leeway....then it's up to each individual immigration office to possibly grant an exception.  

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, steve73 said:

Combination:

Again, what we expected. The total income, either with an embassy letter (if available) or deposited from overseas (with bank statement proof as above), but still requiring at least one deposit EVERY month (so not suitable for people who receive the pension quarterly - I specifically asked that). Plus a savings amount that when added to the total income was at least 800k.

She carefully explained that an example of 40k/month of income, i.e. 480/yr, would require a minimum of 320k in the bank for 3 months prior to the next extension and 3 months after, and a minimum for the rest of the year of 1/2 that figure, i.e 160k. This would require a 1 year (+) itemized bank statement showing the balance had not dropped below these, in addition to a bank statement showing just the international deposits during the past 12 months; (I may have misunderstood the need for 2 separate statements).

Thanks Steve,

Very much what I was told re the income and funds method, but slightly different for the combo method.

 

Interestingly, I was told using an example of 40K per month + 320K funds would have to be maintained throughout the year to total 800K annually. Only if the funds were greater than 320K could I withdraw down to that figure after the seasoning period.

 

Obviously your IO is following the funds rule of withdrawing 1/2 after the seasoning period, topping up again 3 months before the next extension. (Same as the 800K funds method)

However my IO interpret it as a combination of funds and income totalling 800K throughout the year.

 

The question is will this requirement be clarified, or will each office be allowed to use it's own interpretation.

 

[Longcut]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

 

 

I'm wondering if Thai banks will actually do this or this is just something immigration officers think should be easy to get.  Now, I'm sure it could be done but would require the bank to key in on select codes.  Guess we'll find out over the coming months are more after extension reports flow in.

 

And this is going to be a problem where pensions are "normally" posted to a person's account the first few days of every month but "occasionally due to weekends/holidays" a payment may be paid/post early.  So early you actually reflect two payments for that month and no payments for the following month. Like a U.S. social security payment on 3 Aug and another one on 31 Aug (the 31 Aug payment would normally occur on 3 Sep but 3 Sep/Mon was a US holiday preceded by the weekend so it was paid early).  This  periodically happens with various US govt benefit payments like U.S. social security,  military retirement, Veteran's Administration, etc.

 

My Social Security is paid on the 3rd Wednesday of the month. Regardless of the date. 

[Sheryl]

12 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Thanks Steve,

Very much what I was told re the income and funds method, but slightly different for the combo method.

 

Interestingly, I was told using an example of 40K per month + 320K funds would have to be maintained throughout the year to total 800K annually. Only if the funds were greater than 320K could I withdraw down to that figure after the seasoning period.

 

Obviously your IO is following the funds rule of withdrawing 1/2 after the seasoning period, topping up again 3 months before the next extension. (Same as the 800K funds method)

However my IO interpret it as a combination of funds and income totalling 800K throughout the year.

 

The question is will this requirement be clarified, or will each office be allowed to use it's own interpretation.

 

Yes, there are at least 3 different interpretations floating about as to what has to remain unspent when.

 

This oine makes sense to me but the way the order was wrotten ("same as (4) above") left iot wide open tio alternative understandings. Some IOs are even saying that 400K must remain in the bank at all times even if it is more than needed to reach 800K. Others, that whatever amount is needed to equal 800K must be in the bank year round.

 

The whole amount for 3 months and half thereafter (or, put another way, income plus lump sum =800 for 3 months and then = 400 thereafter) seems a reasonable interpretation in that it mirrors the provisions for spending lump sum amounts under the 800K method. but I would not count on all -- or even most -- IOs understanding it this way.

 

 

[Pib]

12 minutes ago, Longcut said:

My Social Security is paid on the 3rd Wednesday of the month. Regardless of the date. 

Which means your birth date is between the 11-20th of the month and when you started social security you did not have a Thailand address on file with SSA....maybe you do now. 

 

I do not know if when a person first starts SSA pension with a US address which means his payment will occur as shown in chart below, if he changes his address on file with the SSA to his Thailand address that the payment will change to the 3rd day of the month.  But if you start off with a foreign address when applying for social security your payment is the 3rd day of each month. 

 

And I do not know if you started off with a foreign address and was getting paid on the 3rd day of the month if you move back to the US and update you address with SSA then if your payment changes to the schedule shown below.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Pib

[DrJack54]

Personally I find the new rules straight forward for retirement extensions using "money in the bank" method. Anything involving "income" for those xpats from countries with embassies that can still use income letter....business as usual. For those who now need bank statements with codes and whatever. I wouldn't exclude possibility that some imm offices will say "stuff this, its all too hard".

"Sir, you no have letter from embassy.. You need 800/400k bank"

Don't throw rocks ...I'm just saying..

[marcusarelus]

1.  I assume you are reporting from Ma ta put/Rayong immigration office? 

2.  If you go to the bank a week in advance for a letter reflecting 12 months of a fixed deposit account and they give it to you that day (only two entries) how much does that cost and will immigration accept a letter a week in advance of the extension application?

Edited February 24, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Pib]

Below website talks the possibility of changing your Social Security "Disability" payment.  Disability payment is not to be confused with your Pension payment....two different animals. 

 

https://www.sapling.com/7641606/change-date-social-security-disability

 

But if the same possibility exists for a SS pension payment for a person with a foreign/Thailand address currently being paid on the 3rd day of the month due to his foreign/Thailand address, it's probably worth some research/asking SSA if his monthly payment can be changed to later in the month....it would probably fall under below chart.

 

 

[steve73]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The new rules allowing proof of income to be 65k or 40k (for marriage) being transferred into the country came into effect on December 21st when the order was issued. I am sure 9 months of transfers will be accepted.

Only the new rules for the 800k baht in the bank option go into effect in on March 1st.

I was told I will be expected to abide by the new rules for my next extension even though it was before March 1st...

This is worrying since NOBODY else who was extending while I was there (perhaps 20 or so) was told anything about these new rules by the Officers.

I realize that this topic has been done to death on Thai Visa, and in other places, but I'm pretty sure there will be a few who will fall between the cracks, simply get a new visa totally unaware of the changes.  I'm surprised that the Offices are not issuing a copy of the rules as they grant each new extension.. Perhaps they will from March 1st..?

[steve73]

25 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

1.  I assume you are reporting from Ma ta put/Rayong immigration office? 

2.  If you go to the bank a week in advance for a letter reflecting 12 months of a fixed deposit account and they give it to you that day (only two entries) how much does that cost and will immigration accept a letter a week in advance of the extension application?

I've always got my bank statement & letter on the morning I've applied for my extension, but I've been told it can a day or two old.  They have also wanted an up-to-date copy of the passbook, and you can do this yourself at many "ATM"s.