Is this legal? No farangs welcome...

[webfact]

Boeing's 737 MAX back in spotlight after second fatal crash

By Tracy Rucinski and David Shepardson

 

FILE PHOTO: Boeing employees are pictured in front of a 737 MAX 8 produced for Southwest Airlines as Boeing celebrates the 10,000th 737 to come off the production line in Renton, Washington, U.S., March 13, 2018. REUTERS/Jason Redmond/File Photo

 

CHICAGO/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The latest version of Boeing Co's best-selling 737 family - a global industry workhorse - has again been thrust into the spotlight after a fatal crash in Ethiopia, months after a deadly crash involving an identical brand-new jet in Indonesia.

 

A Nairobi-bound Boeing 737 MAX 8 operated by Ethiopian Airlines crashed minutes after takeoff from Addis Adaba, killing all 157 on board. The same model flown by Lion Air crashed off the coast of Indonesia in October, killing all 189 on board.

 

There are still unanswered questions about the causes of the Lion Air crash, and officials and safety experts said it was too soon to draw links with the Ethiopian incident.

 

Boeing did not immediately respond to a request for comment. It said in a statement it was ready to assist the investigation.

 

Boeing's shares lost 12 percent in the weeks following the Lion Air crash, but have more than recouped those declines, closing on Friday at $422.54, 18 percent higher than before the Oct. 29 incident in Indonesia.

 

Boeing's 737 MAX is the newest version of a jet that has been a fixture of passenger travel for decades and the cash cow of the world's largest aircraft maker, competing against Airbus SE's A320neo family of single-aisle jetliners.

 

The decades-old 737 family is considered one of the industry's most reliable aircraft.

 

Boeing rolled out the fuel-efficient MAX 8 in 2017 as an update to the already redesigned 50-year-old 737, and had delivered 350 MAX jets out of the total order tally of 5,011 aircraft by the end of January.

 

Former NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker said the catastrophic crashes of two new airplanes soon after the 737 MAX 8 was introduced were "highly unusual" and both had broad similarities in that they went down soon after takeoff.

 

While it is unclear if there is a direct link, “this is now an extraordinary issue” for aviation safety officials to grapple with and will prompt a sweeping investigation to determine if there are common issues, Rosenker said.

 

Dallas-based Southwest Airlines Co is the biggest operator of the MAX 8, with 31 aircraft, followed by American Airlines Group Inc and Air Canada with 24 each.

 

Southwest and American said on Sunday they remained fully confident in the aircraft and were closely monitoring the investigation.

 

Aviation analyst Scott Hamilton cautioned against drawing comparisons between the two crashes, especially before the black box recorders are recovered. Ethiopian has a strong reputation and good safety record, he said in a blog post.

 

Still, the crash puts fresh pressure on Boeing just days before its planned ceremonial debut of another aircraft, the 777x widebody. It was unclear whether Boeing would go ahead with

 

the event scheduled in Seattle on Wednesday.

 

INVESTIGATION AND LITIGATION

Following the Lion Air crash, Boeing faced criticism from some U.S. pilot unions for not having detailed in its flight manual a change in the way that software on the MAX reacts in a stall compared with a previous version.

 

Boeing has insisted that cockpit procedures were already in place to deal with problems that the Lion Air jet experienced.

 

A preliminary report into the Lion Air crash focused on airline maintenance and training, as well as the technical response of the anti-stall system to a recently replaced sensor, but did not give a reason for the crash. Since then, the cockpit voice recorder was recovered and a final report is due later this year.

 

Boeing was expected to introduce a software patch to help address the scenario faced by the Lion Air crew in late March or April, government and industry officials told Reuters in recent weeks.

 

Boeing is already facing a string of lawsuits in the United States by families of the Lion Air crash victims, including five cases in U.S. federal court in Illinois where Boeing has its Chicago headquarters.

 

The 737 MAX 8 uses LEAP-1B engines made by CFM International, a joint venture of General Electric Co and Safran SA.

 

(Reporting by Tracy Rucinski in Chicago and David Shepardson in Washington; Additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris, Allison Lampert in Montreal and Nate Raymond in Boston; Editing by Peter Cooney)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-03-11

[Tug]

Hope it isent Boeing’s fault and rip to all the lost

[Basil B]

Talk of an issue with the AOA (Angle Of Attack) sensor (or it's associated software) that prevents the aircraft climbing to fast by forcing the nose down, like with Lion Air the crew had a problem and seemed to be struggling with the controls and the 737 looks like it was flying vertically down hitting the ground so hard most of it is buried deep, but this is just speculation at this time but does point to a design fault.

[longtom]

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

A big consolation for victims and families of this crash.

Sent from my SM-J250F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[newnative]

   Two brand new planes, same model.  Perfect flying weather.  Both planes crash shortly after takeoff.  Both pilots report trouble handling the plane.  Why is this not a bigger news story?  I had to hunt for it on Yahoo. I would not set foot on a 737 Max--not a fan of Russian Roulette.  I am amazed the planes haven't been grounded until the problem can be found and fixed.  Clearly there is a big problem--are airline profits more important than lives?  Seems so.

[Baerboxer]

The plane was new, delivered last November according to BBC. Ethiopian Airways used to be the big maintenance center for most African airlines in the old Apartheid days when SA was shunned. EA were big clients of a business I worked for. They did a lot of training with Aer Lingus engineers at the time.

 

Of course it's only speculation at the moment but that speculation seems to suggest the same problem here as with the Lion Air crash.

 

I wouldn't fly on a 737 Max at the moment regardless of which air line it was.

[lannarebirth]

2 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

I'm sure that will bring a great deal of comfort to the families of the deceased.

[Tropposurfer]

No 737 use for moi until theres some investigation and definitive response as to whats happening.

[watcharacters]

1 hour ago, longtom said:

2 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

A big consolation for victims and families of this crash.

Sent from my SM-J250F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Those were my thoughts exactly when I read longtom's post.

 

This isn't about the stock price of a company.

 

[robblok]

I wonder if its a design fault will they try to hide it. There is a lot of money at stake. 

[Familyonthemove]

20 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

It is a very arrogant or thoughtless pilot that would not fly the first hundred miles after takeoff without disabling the AOA (Angle Of Attack) sensor. This downing I'm blaming on pilots that were too lazy to takeoff manually. 

Perhaps that is not what they instructed to do?  Would this be a contravention of their procedures?

 

I read that the computers in the new 737 Max were designed to make it fly like the older 737, despite the larger engines, so pilots are not supposed to do anything different?

[Proboscis]

2 hours ago, baboon said:

I am fairly sure that BA do not fly the 737.

I think that the poster meant Boeing stock/shares, not British Airways.

 

And you are correct up to a point - British Airways apparently does not fly 737 Max 8, according to its website. But one of its subsidiaries has ordered eight of them and took delivery of the first last month. This is Comair, a South African francisee of British Airways - and so you will see these aircraft flying under BA colours.

 

For reference, see the following link:

 

https://airlinerwatch.com/first-boeing-737-max-8-with-the-colors-of-british-airways/

 

[newnative]

   Interesting China has grounded its 737 Max planes.  I don't normally think of China putting its people first but it seems to be doing so in this case.

[lannarebirth]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

   Interesting China has grounded its 737 Max planes.  I don't normally think of China putting its people first but it seems to be doing so in this case.

I certainly couldn't fault the Chinese aviation authorities for grounding this fleet in order to "put its people first" as you say, but somehow I doubt that that is their motivation.

[Rimmer]

A troll post and a reply have been removed

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I certainly couldn't fault the Chinese aviation authorities for grounding this fleet in order to "put its people first" as you say, but somehow I doubt that that is their motivation.

     Well, for whatever reason, seems the prudent thing to do until there are some definitive answers and a fix put into place.  The whole response since the Lion Air crash has been one of too little concern--starting with initially blaming the airline and pilots.  New aircraft and it crashes in good weather?  The aircraft should have immediately been grounded after the first crash and more flight testing done.   There's no doubt in my mind that had the crashes been on United or Delta flights we would be seeing a more robust response, especially after the second crash.

[Burma Bill]

4 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

Could be the beginning of a collapse for Boeing. I shall never fly on a 737 - MAX!!!

[Topdoc]

"When Boeing set out to develop the 737 Max, engineers had to find a way to fit a much larger and more-fuel efficient engine under the wing of the single-aisle jet's notoriously low-riding landing gear. By moving the engine slightly forward and higher up and extending the nose landing gear by eight inches, Boeing eked another 14% improvement in fuel consumption out of the continually tweaked airliner. That changed, ever so slightly, how the jet handled in certain situations......."

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/ 

 

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

What???

 

$422 was from Friday. Let's see opening today

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Grouse

[Basil B]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

I wonder if its a design fault will they try to hide it. There is a lot of money at stake. 

Sure they will, 

Flight UA 811 perfect example...

Quote

Lee Campbell, a New Zealander returning home, was one of the casualties on Flight 811. After his death, his parents Kevin and Susan Campbell investigated the cause using documents obtained from the NTSB. The Campbells' investigation led them to conclude that the cause of the accident was not human error but rather the combination of an electrical problem and an inadequate design of the aircraft's cargo door latching mechanism. They later presented their theory to the safety board.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811

From what I heard Boeing and the NTSB did not give the Campbell's the documents, they picked up the documents left in the court room. 

[seahorse]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

Boeing faced criticism from some U.S. pilot unions for not having detailed in its flight manual a change in the way that software on the MAX reacts in a stall compared with a previous version.

 

9 hours ago, webfact said:

 

A preliminary report into the Lion Air crash focused on airline maintenance and training, as well as the technical response of the anti-stall system to a recently replaced sensor

The most relevant parts of the article for me. 

[rgraham]

9 hours ago, baboon said:

I am fairly sure that BA do not fly the 737.

BA is the ticker symbol for Boeing, I am sure they fly their own planes.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

What???

 

$422 was from Friday. Let's see opening today

 

It's dropped 10% already!

[Tug]

CNN reporting similar control issue as lion air Boeing is in deep do do rip to all lost souls and condolences to all affected 

[Topdoc]

Boeing now has to consider the option of grounding all 737 max until everything is clear OR risk a 3rd strike in which case it'll be 'boeing going gone'

[ravip]

14 hours ago, Tug said:

Hope it isent Boeing’s fault and rip to all the lost

 

12 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

 

9 hours ago, newnative said:

   Interesting China has grounded its 737 Max planes.  I don't normally think of China putting its people first but it seems to be doing so in this case.

Cant the blame be put on the Chinese?  After all...

[newnative]

10 hours ago, Topdoc said:

Boeing now has to consider the option of grounding all 737 max until everything is clear OR risk a 3rd strike in which case it'll be 'boeing going gone'

     That's exactly what Boeing should do.  Get ahead of the problem and lead the charge rather than be dragged kicking and screaming to face the problem.  Much better in the long run.  But, should have been done immediately after the first crash.   At this point airlines--and countries--are already doing the grounding on their own so every day Boeing waits it looks worse.  Boeing needs to be strongly  leading.

[Grouse]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:13 AM, Cryingdick said:

Nothing more than a bump in the road, so to speak. BA trades at $422 at the time of writing. 

12% is a fair sized "bump". 

 

11 billion USD is the cost of about 100 737 Max 8 aircraft. Maybe Boeing will get the software updated and test the bloody thing properly. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Grouse

[balo]

It could be an explosion, since the farmers spotted clothes falling down before the plane crashed.