‘Big firm’ blamed for the North’s smog nightmare

[fruitman]

Come on, name that company please!

[manhood]

Prayuts visit cant change anything as its nit his cup if tea to change things for the health of people, either thais or foreigners as it do not HELP him to stay in charge and to manipulate the country

[GarryP]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

So its the corn company that is to blame even though the farmers do the burning. Strange logic. I could understand if the corn company owned the land. But not if the farmers did and sold to the company.

 

The only ones to blame are the farmers and the government for not policing the farmers.

I know in the case of sugar cane, the sugar cane refineries run by environmentally friendly businesses refuse to buy cane from farmers if there is evidence of burning.  Such evidence actually appears on the cane itself so it is easy to catch/police. But there are still way too many mills which turn a blind eye to burning. However, in the case of corn, the burning does not take place until after harvesting, so it would be harder to police. Perhaps, there are other ways it could be policed, but the bottom line is that farmers will continue to burn as long as they can sell their produce. If there is no demand for produce grown on burnt land, the farmers would soon stop burning. 

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I know in the case of sugar cane, the sugar cane refineries run by environmentally friendly businesses refuse to buy cane from farmers if there is evidence of burning.  Such evidence actually appears on the cane itself so it is easy to catch/police. But there are still way too many mills which turn a blind eye to burning. However, in the case of corn, the burning does not take place until after harvesting, so it would be harder to police. Perhaps, there are other ways it could be policed, but the bottom line is that farmers will continue to burn as long as they can sell their produce. If there is no demand for produce grown on burnt land, the farmers would soon stop burning. 

Practically how would the company check it at all. This is after they made the sale with no way to know before. 

Bottom line it comes down to policing and that is a weak spot for Thailand.

[lannarebirth]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Practically how would the company check it at all. This is after they made the sale with no way to know before. 

Bottom line it comes down to policing and that is a weak spot for Thailand.

Make a law stating that the buyer must take the waste product as well as the food product. They'll find a way to make money from it. Corn stover has lots of uses. Silage, fodder, etc.

Edited April 2, 2019 by lannarebirth

[tabarin]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I'm not a CM local, so forgive me, but this latest article focusing on corn production is making me a bit confused.

 

In following this issue over time, I've generally seen the north burning debacle discussed as being general crop clearing AND forest burning as part of the mushroom growing/harvesting process. But now today's article suddenly is talking like it's all about corn growing -- and no mention of forests and mushrooms at all.

 

What gives???

 

 

 

Yeah corn burning was the classic thing, which was ignored for all the years already. Now the mushrooms and forests make it even much worse, and no mention of that.

It is clear that they are not intending to solve the problem as huge money is being made.
They must have a few hundred million US dollar per year to spend on bribes alone.

Doing something about it right away is exactly where an army is for, humanitarian crisis. They are nowhere to be found?
To me it is really clear that nothing will ever change in this country for the better and good. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by tabarin

[cmsally]

Mogok air quality

 

If you look at this page and check reading for 1 Apr 10pm

you will see it was 2505. That is a reading of pm 2.5

Mogok is just north-east of Mandalay. PM10 well over 3000.

Another corn producing area, enjoying the fruits of cash crop monocropping for export to China.

[villagefarang]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Practically how would the company check it at all. This is after they made the sale with no way to know before. 

Bottom line it comes down to policing and that is a weak spot for Thailand.

Before this big food company started contracting the growth of corn in the remote and steep mountains of Northern Thailand the pollution wasn't nearly as bad.  I am surprised they are even being mentioned in the news as they are so powerful.  Blaming the poor farmers for growing what they are paid and told to grow, seems a bit harsh to me.  There is no way to mechanize production on these steep slopes and hard to even see the few people who light up the millions of rai, because of all the smoke.

 

I am not sure but I suspect much of this corn is grown for ethanol production which seems pretty ironic since the burning more than compensates for the reduction in fossil fuels being used in cars.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, villagefarang said:

Before this big food company started contracting the growth of corn in the remote and steep mountains of Northern Thailand the pollution wasn't nearly as bad.  I am surprised they are even being mentioned in the news as they are so powerful.  Blaming the poor farmers for growing what they are paid and told to grow, seems a bit harsh to me.  There is no way to mechanize production on these steep slopes and hard to even see the few people who light up the millions of rai, because of all the smoke.

 

I am not sure but I suspect much of this corn is grown for ethanol production which seems pretty ironic since the burning more than compensates for the reduction in fossil fuels being used in cars.

I guess you and I don't see eye to eye. I blame the farmers more then the big company. If you want to shift blame you could also blame those who buy from this big company.

 

I like to keep blame to the person who actually sets fire to the land, and those failing to police it. The big company never told them to burn, and has no way of knowing who burn and who don't. No marks on the product nothing. So practically they can't do a thing. 

 

Nobody forces the farmer to burn instead of doing manual labor. 

 

I am not saying the big company does not cause burning but they are only filling a demand from people like you and me who buy fuel.  But I never forced a farmer to burn for my fuel, i cannot even know where it comes from. Same goes for that company.

 

I would blame them if there was something they could actually do like with sugarcane where they can see its burned and then do nothing.

[villagefarang]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

I guess you and I don't see eye to eye. I blame the farmers more then the big company. If you want to shift blame you could also blame those who buy from this big company.

 

I like to keep blame to the person who actually sets fire to the land, and those failing to police it. The big company never told them to burn, and has no way of knowing who burn and who don't. No marks on the product nothing. So practically they can't do a thing. 

 

Nobody forces the farmer to burn instead of doing manual labor. 

 

I am not saying the big company does not cause burning but they are only filling a demand from people like you and me who buy fuel.  But I never forced a farmer to burn for my fuel, i cannot even know where it comes from. Same goes for that company.

 

I would blame them if there was something they could actually do like with sugarcane where they can see its burned and then do nothing.

The only way to stop the burning of the corn refuse is to stop the production and only the company can do that.  If you drove through those remote areas you would understand that there is no other way to clear the fields for the next crop.  Looking up at the mountains covered in corn is impressive but also very tragic when you realize it will soon be burned.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by villagefarang
add a photo

[robblok]

Just now, villagefarang said:

The only way to stop the burning of the corn refuse is to stop the production and only the company can do that.  If you drove through those remote areas you would understand that there is no other way to clear the fields for the next crop.  Looking up at the mountains covered in corn is impressive but also very tragic when you realize it will soon be burned.

The only way to stop corn production is to reduce demand. (and there we go shifting the blame).

 

If there was no demand for ethanol the company would not be there. 

 

Maybe they should just ban corn production then on hills. 

 

I just don't see the farmers as blameless. They are the one actually lighting the fires.

[vivid]

30 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Mogok air quality

 

If you look at this page and check reading for 1 Apr 10pm

you will see it was 2505. That is a reading of pm 2.5

Mogok is just north-east of Mandalay. PM10 well over 3000.

Another corn producing area, enjoying the fruits of cash crop monocropping for export to China.

 

The Mogok hourly numbers for reference are.....

AQI 392, 1153, 1738, 2404, 2929 ,3355, 2740, 1531, 1406, 1550, 1632, 1629. 1617, 1631, 1764, 2011, 1483, 503

[villagefarang]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

The only way to stop corn production is to reduce demand. (and there we go shifting the blame).

 

If there was no demand for ethanol the company would not be there. 

 

Maybe they should just ban corn production then on hills. 

 

I just don't see the farmers as blameless. They are the one actually lighting the fires.

Ethanol use is regulated by governments and the demand is artificial.

[Vacuum]

1 hour ago, fruitman said:

Come on, name that company please!

See post #20.

[tandor]

4 hours ago, hansnl said:

Rather stupid to blame the buyer of the crops, while the farmers burn the remains of former crops without any care for the people.

Why don't they just plow the remains under, seems to be better for the land also.

..would have to soak the land first..no money to buy water..we could mulch it but.

[cmsally]

One particularly ironic aspect of this , is that corn production has to a large extent taken over from Opium poppy production. So whereas certain drugs have been reduced to stop wastage of a small percent of the population, we now have a situation where there is involuntary "wastage" of entire populations instead, from pollution.

The increase in planting and production are driven by Chinese consumer demand. Much of the corn is exported to China for animal feed. Also there have been hybrid strains developed over the past 10 years which allow for second crops to be grown in the dry season as they don't require a lot of water.

[villagefarang]

4 hours ago, hansnl said:

Rather stupid to blame the buyer of the crops, while the farmers burn the remains of former crops without any care for the people.

Why don't they just plow the remains under, seems to be better for the land also.

It is far too steep to use machinery in the areas where the corn is grown.

[fruitman]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

I know in the case of sugar cane, the sugar cane refineries run by environmentally friendly businesses refuse to buy cane from farmers if there is evidence of burning.  Such evidence actually appears on the cane itself so it is easy to catch/police. But there are still way too many mills which turn a blind eye to burning. However, in the case of corn, the burning does not take place until after harvesting, so it would be harder to police. Perhaps, there are other ways it could be policed, but the bottom line is that farmers will continue to burn as long as they can sell their produce. If there is no demand for produce grown on burnt land, the farmers would soon stop burning. 

Alright, so we stop buying sugar from sugarcane...what's the alternative? Is there any other sugar available?

[WeekendRaider]

of course it's a corporation. it's maybe even a fossil fuel corporation, that are really bad.  bad bad bad.    

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, fruitman said:

Come on, name that company please!

nope, can't do.... has ties to China

[GarryP]

8 minutes ago, fruitman said:

Alright, so we stop buying sugar from sugarcane...what's the alternative? Is there any other sugar available?

As it is so much easier to police than maize, simply conduct regular random checks on all sugar cane mills. Any found to be purchasing burnt cane should be closed down. You will still have sugar for your coffee. 

[hotchilli]

4 hours ago, hansnl said:

Rather stupid to blame the buyer of the crops, while the farmers burn the remains of former crops without any care for the people.

Why don't they just plow the remains under, seems to be better for the land also.

They are not burning the remains of the crop after harvesting the corn, the burning takes place prior to harvesting which gets rid of the outer leaves from the stems which makes the process easier !

[vivid]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The other thing about children, especially young children, is because their faces are SMALLER, regular ADULT sized masks often won't fit properly and provide an effective seal.

 

3M and some other brands make "S" type smaller sized masks designed to fit smaller faces vs their regular adult sized masks.  But whether any of those are available to schools in the CM area is an open question. Some of the masks in the photo above look way to big for the kids' faces.

 

 

Those are like 3-4 year olds....the cute one in pink top and bottom is especially small, and so is the little guy  to the right of her with a crew cut.

 

   The 3M "S" size masks do not fit.  Those have an approx nose bridge to chin measurement of 11-12cm, they are more for 10-12 year old asian kids at least, maybe if you use some sticky tape then 8-9 year can use them if you push it.....i mean heck who is counting as long as a reasonable seal is form.      If it's for bird flu/SARS virus then yeah better to have a complete seal.

 

And i believe CM kids/N Thailand kids have an even smaller stature than kids over here in my asian country (SG). 

There is a type of mask here called Smart Air+ that has a nose bridge to chin distance of just 8.5cm for its S size (there are 3 sizes, S, M and L, and even L is a little smaller than the adult sizes of other brand's N95s coz i know my father cannot fit 3M adult masks).  It merely fits my 5 year old, just barely.,....but that's ok for haze, not for SARS/bird flu protection though.

 

So, even the S size Smart Air+ N95 masks might not fit the kids above, without some serious sticky taping of the sides.

Good luck asking them to leave the sticky tape alone though, they probably would just tear them out as it's very uncomfortable and itchy.  They probably need something that has a nose bridge to chin distance of just 7cm.

 

The girl at the backrow, left side, probably can nicely fit the Smart Air+ S sized mask, with a nose bridge to chin distance of 8.5cm.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by vivid

[GarryP]

6 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

They are not burning the remains of the crop after harvesting the corn, the burning takes place prior to harvesting which gets rid of the outer leaves from the stems which makes the process easier !

It is my understanding that burning is pre-harvest in the case of sugar cane but post harvest in the case of corn.

[vivid]

Seeing those kids in those surgical masks and without access to very specific masks like Smart Air+ N95 which were developed via fit-testing with young primary school kids really breaks my heart.  ????

Esp with extended hazardous durations like this, and it's even worse in Myanmar.  (AQI 2000-3000+, what?)

 

That is because i have seen young children/babies die before in those conditions in Indonesia AQI 1000+ 2000+ absolutely no doubt about it, have happened numerous times before (my wife's indonesian).  Young kids are really that much more susceptible than adults, and you can imagine that even as an adult it's already very very bad.

In my wife's town there were already quite a few deaths and it wasn't even in the worst areas, just not reported and counted as official.....coz it's very difficult to pinpoint it as a direct cause medically.   My FIL was gunning a Midea and a Sharp AP 24/7 with extra stocks of replacement filters as they are well off, but many others are very poor and the dwellings don't even have airconditioning.

 

 And you don't need weeks, just days of infection if not hours of extremely high transient spikes......healthy teens also die. Search youtube Indonesia Kalimantan palangkaraya haze 2015....i'd love to share youtube vids but unfortunately i was told that i can't. 

 

  We are not talking about what some pax here say "just a little sore throat, cough, and teary eyes...don't be hysterical". 

Edited April 2, 2019 by vivid

[assayer]

5 hours ago, hansnl said:

Rather stupid to blame the buyer of the crops, while the farmers burn the remains of former crops without any care for the people.

Why don't they just plow the remains under, seems to be better for the land also.

All major company's tell their vendors how to operate the business if they want them to purchase their products. It is the same for corn growers.

 

[canuckamuck]

This is a very complex problem with no single solution.

I live in the mountains and I see three different types of burning going on. Corn waste is mainly burned in September - October which is when most of the mountain corn is harvested. I don't understand why they burn it, it has lots of uses, but old dogs and new tricks I suppose. We are not suffering much from corn waste burning in April.

The types of burning we get up here this time of year is; the clearing of new land or land that has been left unplanted for a season/seasons, and undergrowth burning, by mushroom foragers.

The land clearing is usually for corn planting and it makes a lot of smoke and it is, unfortunately necessary, if you are are a poor farmer clearing up some hillside. You can't haul away jungle growth by hand, and no machine can get there.

The last three years we have had a 2-month burning ban, and I have to say the landowners around us in our part of Chiang Rai, do observe the ban, and there is almost no burning by farmers on farmland. The farmers in this area seem truly afraid of even lighting trash fires. People know whose land is whose, so if they burn, it can be traced back to them.

The folks who are burning at this time of year and getting away with it are the mushroom pickers. All they got to do is get an area of forest burning and run away, then come back some other day or night. Pretty hard to catch these guys.

 

It is easy to see the difference between the two types of burning.

Land clearing is done on land where the trees and brush are already felled and dry. These fires burn fast and hard, and there will be a handful of folks watching the boundaries and keeping it contained. 

Undergrowth burning happens in green forests and the trees remain standing. The fire mostly just burns the grasses and ground cover. These fires burn slow and meander around, they might burn for days. If you see smoke coming out of an area of trees, it's undergrowth burning.

All that considered, I honestly believe that at least 70 percent of the smoke is coming across the borders. I am certain that Burma and Laos allow farmland clearing at this time of year, while Thailand (officially) does not. Northern Thailand is surrounded by burning and the best solution would have to be an international effort. We never hear much about any international efforts though

[lannarebirth]

If only Thailand could gain the ear of the ASEAN chairman.  Oh, wait, they ARE the ASEAN chairman this year.

[vivid]

14 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

 Northern Thailand is surrounded by burning and the best solution would have to be an international effort. We never hear much about any international efforts though

The Thailand govt themselves must make that call and ask for help 

 

Indonesia did that in 2015 late Sep...Russia, Singapore, Malaysia, China Australia all went to help, sent heavy lifting helis, air tankers, fire retardants etc.    Singaporeans made donations of N95 and Singapore private groups/NGOs  went over to help distribute masks even from adults N95s to Smart AIR+ masks that are M and S size that could fit very young kids....all personal expenses from the pockets of normal SG citizens. 

 

Actually Thailand did that also in 2015 late March.  Singapore sent 2 x chinooks + bambi buckets and manpower.

Actually in 2015, the extent of haze and fires is like child's play compared to this year. But no request for help? 

 

What is happening in Thailand?  

Edited April 2, 2019 by vivid

[namatjira]

Finally some solutions, funny how nobody on thai visa suggested this one....prayut has saved the north....leaf blowers.....