Chiang Mai in crisis: Foreigners give their verdict "terrible and it smells"

[JimP]

I am amazed the supernatural powers of dictator Prayuth have not been able to help Chiang Mai.  I mean, he said he prayed and as a result of his prayers, the southern Islands of Thailand were spared tropical storms, so why isn't he helping blow all the bad air out of Chiang Mai?

[LetsCleanUpTHAILAND]

Hi Everyone. When I was a researcher for a non-profit in Bangkok, I came across some 21st waste management strategies that would not only stop the burning seasons from happening, but it would create a profitable circular economy. I freelance on sustainable waste management solutions and I would be happy to help the government out with this but it's going to require a public-private partnership. If you know of anyone I can get in touch with, please let me know.

[Jim7777]

This is actually common this time of year it’s the smog blowing in from China.  I remember when I was assigned to Tokyo, Japan we had the same issue around the same time of year in fact now that I recall it was always between March and April every year when this yellow dust would always blow in from China.  It was a lot worse in Seoul, Korea and the pollution in Beijing was the worst.  For the most part Japan had the cleanest air I’ve ever seen in the world.  

[spidermike007]

What should have happened if the army's claims that they are there for the welfare of the nation was true, was that they would have spent the past 60 months working on solutions, instead of bowing down to the lobbyists, special interests, the elites and those with massive bankrolls. Instead, we have this. People are dying. The respiratory wings of the hospitals are full of people with acute condition, who can barely breathe. The potential solutions are endless. If they only cared about the people. 

 

Do we really need another five years of this hapless incompetence and indifference?

[THAIJAMES]

7 hours ago, Jim7777 said:

For the most part Japan had the cleanest air I’ve ever seen in the world.  

I am in Fukuoka right now and I am amazed that a big city this size has pure air. Even downtown in the middle of the traffic.

It goes to show you how incompetent the Thai government is running things.

[FarangDoingHisThing69]

A boring city with crippling pollution. What are the benefits to Chaing Mai? can a stalwart CM expat explain?


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[FarangDoingHisThing69]

I am in Fukuoka right now and I am amazed that a big city this size has pure air. Even downtown in the middle of the traffic.
It goes to show you how incompetent the Thai government is running things.

It’s not fair to compare Japan to Thailand. Japanese thinking is leagues different from the average East Asian nation.

But, don’t get me wrong, I love saki and Tokyo nights. :)


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[THAIJAMES]

48 minutes ago, FarangDoingHisThing69 said:

A boring city with crippling pollution. What are the benefits to Chaing Mai? can a stalwart CM expat explain?

I have lived in Thailand for 32 years and Chiang Mai for 26.

 

I have travelled to more than 75 countries many of them for months and years.

 

Every country has its positives and negatives. Some places are great to travel and some places are great to live.

 

for me Chiang Mai has always been a great place to live where I can relax and enjoy a peaceful no stress life. Relatively free from all those Western rules regulation taxes etc.

 

It still has a magical charm if you know where to get it.

 

What brought me to Thailand is the charm of Thai people and the Lanna culture. Of course that is slowly disappearing as Thais become more westernized.

 

As a Westerner I have always had the philosophy that you cannot happily live in Thailand unless you leave the country once in a while. I leave Chiang Mai three times a year to travel to other places all over the world and make sure to leave during the smoke season.

 

Even now I'm always happy to come back. But that's because I have a nice home, car and enough retirement savings.

 

Also when I consider where in the world I could go now to get the same standard of living that I have now, I haven't found a comparable place yet.

 

If I was 27 again and starting all over again I completely agree with you and I would not settle down here.  Because there is a heavy investment in learning the language and culture. I don't think you can be as happy living in a country if you don't blend in, speak the language and understand the culture.

 

But that's just me. For people starting a family - wow don't do it. There are too many reasons against doing this I don't want to go into it now.

 

If you're retiring here in Chiang Mai I would not advise it. It's no longer a cheap destination and the investment required in learning the language is too great for what you get.

 

I came here when I was 27 which means I was able to adapt to the local conditions if you're coming here when you're 50 or 60 it's a lot harder to adapt to the thai way of doing things

 

So basically don't plan on living in Chiang Mai unless you're doing it on a part-time basis.

 

That's my view everybody is different.

 

.

 

[bbbbooboo]

It’s called voting with your feet

[rumak]

8 hours ago, LetsCleanUpTHAILAND said:

Hi Everyone. When I was a researcher for a non-profit in Bangkok, I came across some 21st waste management strategies that would not only stop the burning seasons from happening, but it would create a profitable circular economy. I freelance on sustainable waste management solutions and I would be happy to help the government out with this but it's going to require a public-private partnership. If you know of anyone I can get in touch with, please let me know.

I nominate this member for OPTIMIST of the year award !   (OYEA)   Competing with him are Reality(difficult to get in touch with) , and another long username,  yagottabekiddingme.   Sarcasm aside, you got my vote .  

[rumak]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

What should have happened if the army's claims that they are there for the welfare of the nation was true, was that they would have spent the past 60 months working on solutions, instead of bowing down to the lobbyists, special interests, the elites and those with massive bankrolls. Instead, we have this. People are dying. The respiratory wings of the hospitals are full of people with acute condition, who can barely breathe. The potential solutions are endless. If they only cared about the people. 

 

Do we really need another five years of this hapless incompetence and indifference?

I tried to figure out which country you were referring to but for the life of me could not .  And i could only think of one potential solution to the mess we are all in (but i think my dog would miss me )

Now let's see who will quickly respond with   this is Thailand forum !!!!!!!!!!!  

[FarangDoingHisThing69]

I have lived in Thailand for 32 years and Chiang Mai for 26.
 
I have travelled to more than 75 countries many of them for months and years.
 
Every country has its positives and negatives. Some places are great to travel and some places are great to live.
 
for me Chiang Mai has always been a great place to live where I can relax and enjoy a peaceful no stress life. Relatively free from all those Western rules regulation taxes etc.
 
It still has a magical charm if you know where to get it.
 
What brought me to Thailand is the charm of Thai people and the Lanna culture. Of course that is slowly disappearing as Thais become more westernized.
 
As a Westerner I have always had the philosophy that you cannot happily live in Thailand unless you leave the country once in a while. I leave Chiang Mai three times a year to travel to other places all over the world and make sure to leave during the smoke season.
 
Even now I'm always happy to come back. But that's because I have a nice home, car and enough retirement savings.
 
Also when I consider where in the world I could go now to get the same standard of living that I have now, I haven't found a comparable place yet.
 
If I was 27 again and starting all over again I completely agree with you and I would not settle down here.  Because there is a heavy investment in learning the language and culture. I don't think you can be as happy living in a country if you don't blend in, speak the language and understand the culture.
 
But that's just me. For people starting a family - wow don't do it. There are too many reasons against doing this I don't want to go into it now.
 
If you're retiring here in Chiang Mai I would not advise it. It's no longer a cheap destination and the investment required in learning the language is too great for what you get.
 
I came here when I was 27 which means I was able to adapt to the local conditions if you're coming here when you're 50 or 60 it's a lot harder to adapt to the thai way of doing things
 
So basically don't plan on living in Chiang Mai unless you're doing it on a part-time basis.
 
That's my view everybody is different.
 
.
 

Thank you for your honest insights. Would I be off base to say CM has the same issues SKV has in Cambodia? too much building, not enough planning?


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[hotchilli]

20 hours ago, SammyT said:

as a result of the incompetence and unwillingness of local and central government to do anything about this

They are incapable of doing anything about it because they don't know what to do.

They live in their Thai bubble, they lack the problem solving skills that are required to be in local government.

That stems form the basic education they received but managed to get the required qualification in the "no-fail system"

Also due to the fact that they probably got the position via someone they knew as apposed to their ability to do the job !!!

The farmers, well you can say what you like, ill-advised, ill-educated. stubborn to learn new techniques

all add to the problem.

Bad news spreads faster than fire, after enough people lose out on income from the Songkran festivities maybe enough pressure wil be put on all concerned to start doing what they are handsomely paid to do!

 

[Rimbuman]

31 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

They are incapable of doing anything about it because they don't know what to do.

They live in their Thai bubble, they lack the problem solving skills that are required to be in local government.

That stems form the basic education they received but managed to get the required qualification in the "no-fail system"

Also due to the fact that they probably got the position via someone they knew as apposed to their ability to do the job !!!

The farmers, well you can say what you like, ill-advised, ill-educated. stubborn to learn new techniques

all add to the problem.

Bad news spreads faster than fire, after enough people lose out on income from the Songkran festivities maybe enough pressure wil be put on all concerned to start doing what they are handsomely paid to do!

 

Thai bubble 555, it's more like foam! Underneath their skulls. Pain in their wallets to be the incentive to do something about it? This just simply will not work, I'm concerned that relocating or a yearly 4 month vacation are about the only sensible options. You can't fight this madness.

[THAIJAMES]

1 hour ago, FarangDoingHisThing69 said:

Thank you for your honest insights. Would I be off base to say CM has the same issues SKV has in Cambodia? too much building, not enough planning?


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I have not noticed too much over building in Chiang Mai most of the expansion was around 10 years ago.  it was done pretty orderly in housing estates.

 

A lot of hot money from the financial crisis (quantitative easing) found its way in the banking sector for investment in real estate.

 

it may seem much more congested as far as traffic that's because Thais  have switched from driving motorcycles to driving cars.

 

For me the problem facing Chiang Mai is a similar problem all over the world which is overpopulation and globalization.

 

Thailand and many other developing countries are way behind the West addressing pollution, clean water and healthy foods issues. 

 

If you have money you can take steps to get good filters for air and water and buy high quality produce.  And of course leave Chiang Mai for a month or two during the smoke season.

 

 

[FarangDoingHisThing69]

I have not noticed too much over building in Chiang Mai most of the expansion was around 10 years ago.  it was done pretty orderly in housing estates.
 
For me the problem facing Chiang Mai is a similar problem all over the world which is overpopulation and globalization.
 
Thailand and many other developing countries are way behind the West addressing pollution, clean water and healthy foods issues. 
 
If you have money you can take steps to get good filters for air and water and buy high quality produce.
 
 

It’s the same issue in a different package, if I may say. Albeit with money, anything is avoided. This is same in most hellholes in USA. Does not exonerate the underlying area from its flaws. Thank you for your input. I will avoid CM until pollution is equal or less than Bangkok.


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[THAIJAMES]

17 minutes ago, FarangDoingHisThing69 said:

 

 

It’s the same issue in a different package, if I may say. Albeit with money, anything is avoided. This is same in most hellholes in USA. Does not exonerate the underlying area from its flaws. Thank you for your input. I will avoid CM until pollution is equal or less than Bangkok.


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I would generally avoid February to June because of pollution and  then heavy humidity and heat.

[FarangDoingHisThing69]

I would generally avoid February to June because of pollution and  then heavy humidity and heat.

I like heat and rain, what I don’t like is inhaling blocs of black smoke from buses.


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[Zack61]

21 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

Don't cry
Don't raise your eye
It's only toxic wasteland

Sally take my hand
We'll travel south cross land
Put out the fire
And don't look past my shoulder
The exodus is here
The happy ones are near
Let's get together, before we get much older

toxic wasteland
It's only toxic wasteland
toxic wasteland
Oh yeah, toxic wasteland
They're all wasted!

 

 

I knew the WHO would have to get involved. 

[glenmohr]

We would have to agree that in a community those holding doctor's degrees are among the group that spends the most time on education.

It could not be more obvious that I am suffering from a pollution related sickness.

Both the learned doc on Loy Kroh and the unrelated well qualified doc at Ram Hospital refused to treat my very serious and life threatening condition as smoke related. I could not help thinking that there is political pressure from above not to make too big a deal about the pollution issue 

I've always observed that a westerner values his/her health as a top priority, not even Thai doctors seem to understand that

 

 

[Jimdandy]

Not taking sides at all. I can remember as far back as 2012, some of you even longer, overhearing expats and also talking directly to expats who were saying 'Everybody is going to Chiang Mai'. Some expats were saying Pattaya and BKK  are screwed up now. I wonder, without pointing any fingers, if the present pollution would not be as bad if 'everybody' didn't go to Chaing Mai as I heard. Not to mention the local population natural increase, farming and a significant increase in cars and motorbikes. There is more, of course, including the local governments interest in revenue through tourism.

 

Travel and tourism always have a dark side that money makers never like to admit or talk about. When tourists come the locals don't leave. So the more hotels and accommodations you allow for tourists the more people have to share the same resources. I'm sure you get my drift. Not to mention traditional farmers who refuse to adapt to new methods for a myriad of reasons ranging from not being willing to a lack of training and education about new farming methods and wanting to continue traditional methods. Oh yes, don't forget profit margins.

 

Everybody can point fingers all they want. The rich farang who feels entitled because they have money, the wealthy Thai who believe they have the generational and cultural entitlement to do what they want, to the farang who can only afford to stay in a hostel. Then you have the local families who for generations never imagined that their beloved community would be under environmental siege as it is now. How do you think they feel? The fact remains this situation is not going to get better until every party involved comes together to reach a solution that everyone can agree on.

 

How many said apartheid would never end? How many said women will never hold the highest political office in a country that adjusted to change? Yeah you know the one, 1940's swastika-bearing lunatics, So if you are in the peanut gallery or throwing stones from your glass house talking about stubborn Thai or farang no good remember this. the previous article mentioned that this condition is shortening the lives of innocent children. What about that? This is a serious problem with no easy answer except to begin to have a dialogue on a regular basis.

 

I consulted on a community project once and it took almost 5 long years to get everybody to agree that light should be installed in the local park so residents would feel safe at night. Yep. Five years. You would not believe some of the resistance. Issues like 'it wasn't like that when I was a kid, it's those new people who moved in fault that made the neighborhood worse and on an on. In the meantime, the murder and rape rate was soaring, until the lights went in.

 

Children are starting to have adverse effects while adults who can either move away or work together to solve the issue act like children and blame each other. Well, that's my two cents.

[5633572526]

22 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

After getting really sick in February and my local doctor saying “from bad air”, we left for Australia for three months. Not to say it is not getting worse each year is a understatement.

 

Wake up Thailand- you are killing yourselves 

Wake up expats and get the hell out of there 

[rumak]

51 minutes ago, Zack61 said:

I knew the WHO would have to get involved. 

Most of them have outlived their wish :  "Hope I die before I get old"

 

[rumak]

5 minutes ago, Jimdandy said:

Not taking sides at all. I can remember as far back as 2012, some of you even longer, overhearing expats and also talking directly to expats who were saying 'Everybody is going to Chiang Mai'. Some expats were saying Pattaya and BKK  are screwed up now. I wonder, without pointing any fingers, if the present pollution would not be as bad if 'everybody' didn't go to Chaing Mai as I heard. Not to mention the local population natural increase, farming and a significant increase in cars and motorbikes. There is more, of course, including the local governments interest in revenue through tourism.

 

Travel and tourism always have a dark side that money makers never like to admit or talk about. When tourists come the locals don't leave. So the more hotels and accommodations you allow for tourists the more people have to share the same resources. I'm sure you get my drift. Not to mention traditional farmers who refuse to adapt to new methods for a myriad of reasons ranging from not being willing to a lack of training and education about new farming methods and wanting to continue traditional methods. Oh yes, don't forget profit margins.

 

Everybody can point fingers all they want. The rich farang who feels entitled because they have money, the wealthy Thai who believe they have the generational and cultural entitlement to do what they want, to the farang who can only afford to stay in a hostel. Then you have the local families who for generations never imagined that their beloved community would be under environmental siege as it is now. How do you think they feel? The fact remains this situation is not going to get better until every party involved comes together to reach a solution that everyone can agree on.

 

How many said apartheid would never end? How many said women will never hold the highest political office in a country that adjusted to change? Yeah you know the one, 1940's swastika-bearing lunatics, So if you are in the peanut gallery or throwing stones from your glass house talking about stubborn Thai or farang no good remember this. the previous article mentioned that this condition is shortening the lives of innocent children. What about that? This is a serious problem with no easy answer except to begin to have a dialogue on a regular basis.

 

I consulted on a community project once and it took almost 5 long years to get everybody to agree that light should be installed in the local park so residents would feel safe at night. Yep. Five years. You would not believe some of the resistance. Issues like 'it wasn't like that when I was a kid, it's those new people who moved in fault that made the neighborhood worse and on an on. In the meantime, the murder and rape rate was soaring, until the lights went in.

 

Children are starting to have adverse effects while adults who can either move away or work together to solve the issue act like children and blame each other. Well, that's my two cents.

More like a dollar and two cents.   ????

 

[CGW]

12 hours ago, fullcave said:

We are approaching the end of the smog season in Thailand. 

The end of the burning season funnily enough coincides with the beginning of the rainy season of which there is no sign yet! I'm confident they will find more flamable material to ignite in the meantime!  

Is arson taught in schools here?

[spidermike007]

3 hours ago, FarangDoingHisThing69 said:

Thank you for your honest insights. Would I be off base to say CM has the same issues SKV has in Cambodia? too much building, not enough planning?


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Yes. It is way over developed. And the traffic is now a nightmare. Combine that with the air quality, and the increasing prices for most everything, and it is not someplace most of us would want to live. 

[SuperTed]

Where is the analysis please of sources of PM2.5 pollution? This is the first step in solving the problem. Cars and crop burning are a huge issue, but as our neighbor to the North has moved its factories West, I suspect a large amount of the pollution is floating South.

 

Or maybe the topography prevents that? The growth in heavy and polluting industry in Yunnan over the last decade has been massive:

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/gross-domestic-product-yunnan/cn-gdp-yunnan-primary-industry

[vivid]

2 hours ago, glenmohr said:

We would have to agree that in a community those holding doctor's degrees are among the group that spends the most time on education.

It could not be more obvious that I am suffering from a pollution related sickness.

Both the learned doc on Loy Kroh and the unrelated well qualified doc at Ram Hospital refused to treat my very serious and life threatening condition as smoke related. I could not help thinking that there is political pressure from above not to make too big a deal about the pollution issue 

I've always observed that a westerner values his/her health as a top priority, not even Thai doctors seem to understand that

 

 

If there is some truth in the above, then it is entirely possible that there are indeed mortality in N Thailand due to the very very bad air but the statistics wouldn't show. Absolutely no doubt about that with the extreme levels experienced for days.  You do not need annual PM2.5 conc figures.

 

Possibly and probably this medical situation is gonna be even worse in Myanmar Mogok, Lashio or Laos Praksan.  The levels there are unreal.  1000+ 2000, 3000 over ten hours in a day. What the ....?

 

Already witnessed it in Indonesia, the official toll was like less than 20 dead.  But in my wife's small town, already quite a few dead with indirect causes. 

 

Another issue is if there was a medical issue,

(1) whether he/she/the kid could get to the hospital fast

(2) EVen then, are they able to successfully treat this life-threatening condition at the hospital?

2a.  I can tell ya, at my wife's town, they can't even properly treat a simple fracture of the femur.  You don't go to another bigger town, then you'd better start to prepare to lose the use of that leg.  ????   My wife's grandfather experienced that and he was very adamant at first not to do a 4-hr ferry travel to another bigger city.  Luckily at last 4 days later my MIL travelled from SG back to that hometown to just yank him out to the nearest indon city to get treatment.  A few days longer and he'd be a cripple.

 

The same goes for Beijing/China......the cardiologist/pulmonologist was technically unable to list the cause of death to air pollution.

Go check out "Into the dome" smog China documentary on youtube.

Ok i am not going to embed the youtube video, but i hope a youtube link is ok and not OT.

Turn on the CC close caption for translation

https://youtu.be/T6X2uwlQGQM?t=922

ps.  The scenes in the YT vid above might be disturbing to some viewers

 

[THAIJAMES]

5 hours ago, hotchilli said:

They are incapable of doing anything about it because they don't know what to do.

They live in their Thai bubble, they lack the problem solving skills that are required to be in local government.

That stems form the basic education they received but managed to get the required qualification in the "no-fail system"

Also due to the fact that they probably got the position via someone they knew as apposed to their ability to do the job !!!

The farmers, well you can say what you like, ill-advised, ill-educated. stubborn to learn new techniques

all add to the problem.

Bad news spreads faster than fire, after enough people lose out on income from the Songkran festivities maybe enough pressure wil be put on all concerned to start doing what they are handsomely paid to do!

 

That basically sums it up but I would also add that a lot of things can get done in Thailand if the elite from Bangkok are behind it.

 

In this case the elite don't know how to make money from this problem.

 

In fact it suits them to have the narrative "stupid northern people let them suffer in their own mess".

 

Of course if they weren't so brain-dead they would realize that this is also a very good business opportunity.

 

Billions could be spent on anti-pollution measures.

 

[MalandLee]

2 hours ago, vivid said:

 

If there is some truth in the above, then it is entirely possible that there are indeed mortality in N Thailand due to the very very bad air but the statistics wouldn't show. Absolutely no doubt about that with the extreme levels experienced for days.  You do not need annual PM2.5 conc figures.

 

Possibly and probably this medical situation is gonna be even worse in Myanmar Mogok, Lashio or Laos Praksan.  The levels there are unreal.  1000+ 2000, 3000 over ten hours in a day. What the ....?

 

Already witnessed it in Indonesia, the official toll was like less than 20 dead.  But in my wife's small town, already quite a few dead with indirect causes. 

 

Another issue is if there was a medical issue,

(1) whether he/she/the kid could get to the hospital fast

(2) EVen then, are they able to successfully treat this life-threatening condition at the hospital?

2a.  I can tell ya, at my wife's town, they can't even properly treat a simple fracture of the femur.  You don't go to another bigger town, then you'd better start to prepare to lose the use of that leg.  ????   My wife's grandfather experienced that and he was very adamant at first not to do a 4-hr ferry travel to another bigger city.  Luckily at last 4 days later my MIL travelled from SG back to that hometown to just yank him out to the nearest indon city to get treatment.  A few days longer and he'd be a cripple.

 

The same goes for Beijing/China......the cardiologist/pulmonologist was technically unable to list the cause of death to air pollution.

Go check out "Into the dome" smog China documentary on youtube.

Ok i am not going to embed the youtube video, but i hope a youtube link is ok and not OT.

Turn on the CC close caption for translation

https://youtu.be/T6X2uwlQGQM?t=922

ps.  The scenes in the YT vid above might be disturbing to some viewers

 

@Vivid.

A sincere thanks you for sharing the video. It was THE most profound Documentary I have ever seen in my life.

 

I hope many more will share it, as I will share among my friends - Chai Jing is a brave beautiful soul...