Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

Even brain surgeons don't understand the brain that much.

 

 

For you as well...please make your points in a logical manner, clearly explaining how you come to your conclusions. (Removed)

[Sparktrader]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

Oh lord....maybe try to re-read that post and "maybe" you'll understand.

The link to god is?

 

What is your argument here?

 

 

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Credible proof not wishy washy stuff. You haven't presented any facts that 1 pass the pub test or 2 pass in a court of law.

 

Then you get upset and blame the other side.

 

Epic fail.

You have been told a few times already that you can't get any material proof of the existence of an intelligent design or higher states of consciousness. 

No way.

Now, what exactly you don't understand  ?

Glad to help ????

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by mauGR1

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by mauGR1

[Sparktrader]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

You have been told a few times already that you can't get any material proof of the existence of an intelligent design or higher states of consciousness. 

No way.

Now, what exactly you don't understand  ?

Glad to help ????

Yes you have no case. I win, you lose.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Yes you have no case. I win, you lose.

Sorry for multiple posts.

Well, I and a few others have tried to explain, since nearly 2 years, various different logical processes which make the theory of an intelligent design quite likely, even for the most skeptical. 

If you don't bother to even try to understand the logic behind that belief is not my problem. 

[Sparktrader]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

Sorry for multiple posts.

Well, I and a few others have tried to explain, since nearly 2 years, various different logical processes which make the theory of an intelligent design quite likely, even for the most skeptical. 

If you don't bother to even try to understand the logic behind that belief is not my problem. 

Happy to believe but there is no logical reason. Murders, rapes etc.

 

If god exists he's an AH. Doesnt do anything to stop bad stuff.

 

And how can god create himself? It's not possible.

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Understand what? You claim god exists yet have zero evidence. Explain your brain wave theory.

Ok, I'll try to make it as simple as possible for you...

• There are states of consciousness. 
• We operate at a state called "waking sleep (3)". Here the brain produces Beta waves.
• During deep meditation people are able to produce Theta and Delta waves.
• Theta and Beta are associated with the higher states of consciousness called Self-Transcendence (4) and Objective Consciousness (5).
• "God" is a collective term for what can be experienced during states 4 and 5. (well, not just that, but I promised to keep it simple).

Is there scientific evidence for states of consciousness. Of course.

Is there scientific evidence for brain waves. See above.
Is there empirically supported evidence that these states of consciousness produce radical changes in ones awareness of life and the universe? Ditto 

 

Conclusion:
Science goes as far as verifying the objective physiological changes during the different states of consciousness (record the brain wave patterns and changes in biochemistry)

Science CAN NOT verify the subjective changes that happen during those states, just like it can't make a video of your dream and what you feel during that dream. 
This is a limitation of science, not of the meditators! 


I hope this is clear enough for you. 
Looking forward to your reply.



 

 

 

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, I'll try to make it as simple as possible for you...

• There are states of consciousness. 
• We operate at a state called "waking sleep (3)". Here the brain produces Beta waves.
• During deep meditation people are able to produce Theta and Delta waves.
• Theta and Beta are associated with the higher states of consciousness called Self-Transcendence (4) and Objective Consciousness (5).
• "God" is a collective term for what can be experienced during states 4 and 5. (well, not just that, but I promised to keep it simple).

Is there scientific evidence for states of consciousness. Of course.

Is there scientific evidence for brain waves. See above.
Is there empirically supported evidence that these states of consciousness produce radical changes in ones awareness of life and the universe? Ditto 

 

Conclusion:
Science goes as far as verifying the objective physiological changes during the different states of consciousness (record the brain wave patterns and changes in biochemistry)

Science CAN NOT verify the subjective changes that happen during those states, just like it can't make a video of your dream and what you feel during that dream. 
This is a limitation of science, not of the meditators! 


I hope this is clear enough for you. 
Looking forward to your reply.



 

 

 

Yes 5 types of waves. No proof of god. God for sleep and relaxing.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Happy to believe but there is no logical reason. Murders, rapes etc.

 

If god exists he's an AH. Doesnt do anything to stop bad stuff.

 

And how can god create himself? It's not possible.

Evil is just the opposite of good. 

We have to deal with those forces somehow. 

Obviously, IF a supreme God exists, I prefer to call it intelligent design, or supreme consciousness,  is not born, and it doesn't have an end.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, I'll try to make it as simple as possible for you...

• There are states of consciousness. 
• We operate at a state called "waking sleep (3)". Here the brain produces Beta waves.
• During deep meditation people are able to produce Theta and Delta waves.
• Theta and Beta are associated with the higher states of consciousness called Self-Transcendence (4) and Objective Consciousness (5).
• "God" is a collective term for what can be experienced during states 4 and 5. (well, not just that, but I promised to keep it simple).

Is there scientific evidence for states of consciousness. Of course.

Is there scientific evidence for brain waves. See above.
Is there empirically supported evidence that these states of consciousness produce radical changes in ones awareness of life and the universe? Ditto 

 

Conclusion:
Science goes as far as verifying the objective physiological changes during the different states of consciousness (record the brain wave patterns and changes in biochemistry)

Science CAN NOT verify the subjective changes that happen during those states, just like it can't make a video of your dream and what you feel during that dream. 
This is a limitation of science, not of the meditators! 


I hope this is clear enough for you. 
Looking forward to your reply.



 

 

 

I would just change the last bit to

 

Some feel that individual experiences indicate a supernatural or cosmic experience but science cannot sense these based on current technology. 

Science says that there is evidence of benefits of meditation and of different states of the brain that may affect state of consciousness but not of an experience outside the persons physical body. Science considers it is not unreasonable that those experiencing supernatural or cosmic experiences might come back with new insights on how the world works or some evidence that should be testable. 

[Sparktrader]

During meditation, the brain shows theta waves predominantly. These waves are associated with a relaxed state of mind as compared to alpha waves, which are associated with an aroused state of mind.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

It appears all the wannabe scientists here have gone silent. They can't even debate science and call it "Hippie stuff" 55555

So, using your own words "You lose. I win" 

Cheerio ????

[Orinoco]

Just now, Sunmaster said:

Oh, another one....please tell me what you think about the brainwaves/states of consciousness argument?

Looking forward to your insights. ????

Nah.

I will just stick with the op question.

Do you believe in god, NO

Does god exist, i don't know. and don't care life is to short for all that.

Thread can be closed now. LOL.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Meditation is popular with hippies. Relaxing and sleeping doesn't prove god exists.

 

You might as well argue eating dope proves god exists.

Actually, meditation can give you the tools to explore higher states of consciousness, but apparently it's a foreign language to you.

As a consolation,  you seem to be part of the majority of people ????

[CharlieH]

Multiple trolling comments and responses removed.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

The act of trying or striving is taking you away from yourself. If there is something out there I will discover it as much by living my normal life as by meditating. There could be nothing. 

Hmm I understand what you're saying, but I don't completely agree.
You can not expect to enjoy the benefits which come from years of meditation practice, simply by living a normal life (without meditation). It's like saying I will become a doctor, whether I go to university or not. It simply doesn't work like that. Would be nice though.

There could be nothing. 
True. But the physical and mental benefits of meditation have already been proven. If the monks and all other practitioners are right, then there is a lot more to it than that.
Wouldn't you want to risk finding out then?
There could be something....

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Orinoco said:

Nah.

I will just stick with the op question.

Yeah....that's what I thought. 
 

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Dear skeptic, it appears I have to ask you directly....Please tell me what you think about states of consciousness and brain waves (which are scientifically supported), and the evidence they bring to the non-materialistic worldview.
Care to tell us your opinion? Please use more than 2 sentences, if you can.
Thank you

Certainly...no problem. Appreciate the question.

 

I don't dispute there are other states of consciousness, nor that scientific evidence supports it. No prob accepting that. Problem is...it brings us no closer to proving or demonstrating any god at all. To be clear...It demonstrates zero about any "god". Doesn't even get much closer to any god-concept. Unless, of course, to only those individuals whom crowbar "god" into that equation and as some sort of answer...but not at all to much of the rest of the world. Certainly not the scientific consensus. 

 

Only thing these other or "higher" states of consciousness demonstrate is that humans and science are learning more and more about the super complex "computer" called the human brain. And about the human "mind". Science...always seeking more knowledge & understanding. 

 

To claim otherwise...such as consciousness (or a mind) without a brain...would require evidence of consciousness (or a mind) without a brain. Thus far...there is zero scientific evidence supporting such claims. Research is being done, but a long way to go from here.

 

And yes...I'm aware of Peter Fenwick and his vastly anti-consensus minority view, but until he is able to show evidence that convinces his peers, it's just an idea in progress. Not even close to being accepted as a scientific theory. Perhaps he will succeed, but until that time  no need to jump to premature conclusions.

 

And even if he was to sway the scientific community...still does nothing to prove any god. Would certainly raise alot of new questions and mystery and need of further study...but not proof of any god-entity. That would then require all sorts of new research and compelling evidence. 

 

(Does this answer qualify as long enough for ya?) 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Skeptic7

[Sunmaster]

11 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Certainly...no problem. Appreciate the question.

 

I don't dispute there are other states of consciousness, nor that scientific evidence supports it. No prob accepting that. Problem is...it brings us no closer to proving or demonstrating any god at all. To be clear...It demonstrates zero about any "god". Doesn't even get much closer to any god-concept. Unless, of course, to only those individuals whom crowbar "god" into that equation and as some sort of answer...but not at all to much of the rest of the world. Certainly not the scientific consensus. 

 

Only thing these other or "higher" states of consciousness demonstrate is that humans and science are learning more and more about the super complex "computer" called the human brain. And about the human "mind". Science...always seeking more knowledge & understanding. 

 

To claim otherwise...such as consciousness (or a mind) without a brain...would require evidence of consciousness (or a mind) without a brain. Thus far...there is zero scientific evidence supporting such claims. Research is being done, but a long way to go from here. . 

 

And yes...I'm aware of Peter Fenwick and his vastly anti-consensus minority view, but until he is able to show evidence that convinces his peers, it's just an idea in progress. Not even close to being accepted as a scientific theory. Perhaps he will succeed, but until that time  no need to jump to premature conclusions.

 

And even if he was to sway the scientific community...still does nothing to prove any god. Would certainly raise alot of new questions and mystery and need of further study...but not proof of any god-entity. That would then require all sorts of new research and compelling evidence. 

Ahhh finally!
Appreciate your well thought out reply, thank you.

 

While reading it though, I couldn't help noticing that you seem to have a particular dislike for the G word. In my post about the states of consciousness and brain waves, I intentionally avoided using it because it has so many meanings and evokes all sorts of emotional responses. In your case it seems to be like a trigger word tbh.

It's for that reason that I tried to approach the subject from a different direction. One that people like you would feel more comfortable exploring. 

 

So, we agree there are different states of consciousness; some we are more familiar with than others. Some we enter daily (and nightly) and have first hand experiences with, and others most of us have very little or no experience with.
Correct?

Now, advanced meditation practitioners have been tested with EEG and their brain patterns recorded. A common person is not able to produce such brain waves at will. Ergo, the meditation practice is what enables the meditator to access these higher states of consciousness.

This is as far as objective research of the hard sciences can go for now. 
The soft sciences (psychology, sociology, anthropology, philosophy etc) are the ones that have to take over from here, exploring how accessing those states affects the inner development of the practitioner. Empirical evidence has to be gathered and evaluated.

You're right when you say, "Research is being done, but a long way to go from here." Science is very new at this and still trying to find its way around this. What is experienced during the higher states of consciousness MUST be open for scientific scrutiny and science MUST do all in its power to explore it. 

"God" is just a concept. If we could just say "That which is experienced at state 4 and 5", perhaps it wouldn't trigger you as much?

[Skeptic7]

47 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Ahhh finally!
Appreciate your well thought out reply, thank you.

 

While reading it though, I couldn't help noticing that you seem to have a particular dislike for the G word. In my post about the states of consciousness and brain waves, I intentionally avoided using it because it has so many meanings and evokes all sorts of emotional responses. In your case it seems to be like a trigger word tbh.

It's for that reason that I tried to approach the subject from a different direction. One that people like you would feel more comfortable exploring. 

 

So, we agree there are different states of consciousness; some we are more familiar with than others. Some we enter daily (and nightly) and have first hand experiences with, and others most of us have very little or no experience with.
Correct?

Now, advanced meditation practitioners have been tested with EEG and their brain patterns recorded. A common person is not able to produce such brain waves at will. Ergo, the meditation practice is what enables the meditator to access these higher states of consciousness.

This is as far as objective research of the hard sciences can go for now. 
The soft sciences (psychology, sociology, anthropology, philosophy etc) are the ones that have to take over from here, exploring how accessing those states affects the inner development of the practitioner. Empirical evidence has to be gathered and evaluated.

You're right when you say, "Research is being done, but a long way to go from here." Science is very new at this and still trying to find its way around this. What is experienced during the higher states of consciousness MUST be open for scientific scrutiny and science MUST do all in its power to explore it. 

"God" is just a concept. If we could just say "That which is experienced at state 4 and 5", perhaps it wouldn't trigger you as much?

Wow....unbelievable. But actually not. Should have been totally expecting more self-anointed superiority from Mr. Sun. This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves. 

 

NOR is it about me. So stop with your lame, unqualified psychoanalytical BS. You pretend to know things you do not. 

 

God is not a trigger word. Willful ignorance and superstitious beliefs are "triggers" as are people who insist they believe things they can't even describe to themselves, so much as present a shred of evidence. In all fairne3, YOU are not one of these. YOU do not seem to even believe in any "god" , yet you pretend to by changing definitions and trying to change the OP topic of the thread with word play. Why not start a new thread? Highly doubtful it would last long without the ridiculous god-baggage tied to it. 

 

You believe in benefits of meditation...no prob. You're interested in brain waves and states of the human brain...no prob. All good until you start attributing supernatural claims to these things. Now you got a lot of 'splainin to do. If you decide to label these things god...no prob, but if you're truly serious....got a lot of 'splainin to do. 

 

BTW...your selective psychedelic memory seems to crashed and burned, as I've hammered out many long posts pointing out blatant contradictions, fallacies, cognitive dissonance, preconceived notions and disputing flat out nonsense from many of "Team Believer". Have always asked for evidence too...in which zero has ever been provided as far as the god notion goes. 

 

Here's another trigger...dishonesty. 

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Wow....unbelievable. But actually not. Should have been totally expecting more self-anointed superiority from Mr. Sun. This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves. 

 

NOR is it about me. So stop with your lame, unqualified psychoanalytical BS. You pretend to know things you do not. 

 

God is not a trigger word. Willful ignorance and superstitious beliefs are "triggers" as are people who insist they believe things they can't even describe to themselves, so much as present a shred of evidence. In all fairne3, YOU are not one of these. YOU do not seem to even believe in any "god" , yet you pretend to by changing definitions and trying to change the OP topic of the thread with word play. Why not start a new thread? Highly doubtful it would last long without the ridiculous god-baggage tied to it. 

 

You believe in benefits of meditation...no prob. You're interested in brain waves and states of the human brain...no prob. All good until you start attributing supernatural claims to these things. Now you got a lot of 'splainin to do. If you decide to label these things god...no prob, but if you're truly serious....got a lot of 'splainin to do. 

 

BTW...your selective psychedelic memory seems to crashed and burned, as I've hammered out many long posts pointing out blatant contradictions, fallacies, cognitive dissonance, preconceived notions and disputing flat out nonsense from many of "Team Believer". Have always asked for evidence too...in which zero has ever been provided as far as the god notion goes. 

 

Here's another trigger...dishonesty. 

Wow, just when I thought I've found some common ground, you come back with this rant! Unbelievable. Or maybe not.

 

Maybe you're not just triggered by the G word, but by scientific inquiry too?

 

So, you're not willing to discuss spirituality because you only believe in science. Now you refuse to discuss science, because according  to you, it has nothing to do with spirituality, even though I'm presenting scientific facts to the contrary.

 

Well.....LOL

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Sunmaster

[xylophone]

18 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Wow....unbelievable. But actually not. Should have been totally expecting more self-anointed superiority from Mr. Sun. This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves. 

 

NOR is it about me. So stop with your lame, unqualified psychoanalytical BS. You pretend to know things you do not. 

 

God is not a trigger word. Willful ignorance and superstitious beliefs are "triggers" as are people who insist they believe things they can't even describe to themselves, so much as present a shred of evidence. In all fairne3, YOU are not one of these. YOU do not seem to even believe in any "god" , yet you pretend to by changing definitions and trying to change the OP topic of the thread with word play. Why not start a new thread? Highly doubtful it would last long without the ridiculous god-baggage tied to it. 

 

You believe in benefits of meditation...no prob. You're interested in brain waves and states of the human brain...no prob. All good until you start attributing supernatural claims to these things. Now you got a lot of 'splainin to do. If you decide to label these things god...no prob, but if you're truly serious....got a lot of 'splainin to do. 

 

BTW...your selective psychedelic memory seems to crashed and burned, as I've hammered out many long posts pointing out blatant contradictions, fallacies, cognitive dissonance, preconceived notions and disputing flat out nonsense from many of "Team Believer". Have always asked for evidence too...in which zero has ever been provided as far as the god notion goes. 

 

Here's another trigger...dishonesty. 

I think I've "cracked it" Skeptic7..................

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sunmaster]

Hmm...Since you got personal with your ad hominem post instead of staying on topic and I've got some time to kill, I think it deserves a better reply.

 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves. 

Did you tell that to Mr Vincent and all other science lovers who were demanding scientific proof, posting about the speed of light, posting quantuum theory formulas that not even they could understand?

Strange, I never heard you complaining about science posts when they fit your narrative. You yourself referred to science countless times. It's all on here, black on white. Now, faced with evidence that could  threaten your house of cards, suddenly you make an 180degree turn and say that science should not be discussed here. Oh the irony... ???? 
 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

NOR is it about me. So stop with your lame, unqualified psychoanalytical BS. You pretend to know things you do not. 

Of course it's about you, ...and me, and everyone else. 
How do you know I'm unqualified? I'm surely qualified enough to see right through you. ???? 
How do you know I don't know things? The only way is that you know them better than I do. No evidence has been brought to the table to support this claim. At all.
I'm openly discussing the topic. You on the other hand, appear to panic and run away at the first difficulty. If you don't see the correlation between states of consciousness and what people experience as "God", that's on you mate, that's your own limitation.

 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Willful ignorance and superstitious beliefs are "triggers" as are people who insist they believe things they can't even describe to themselves, so much as present a shred of evidence.

 

True, willful ignorance (= refusing to discuss the topic at hand and refusing to fill the gaps in your knowledge about said topic....rings a bell? nudge nudge) and superstitious belief have to be addressed and overcome. It's not too late Mr Skeptic.
Whatever I describe here, I can obviously describe to myself (even better!). That's just basic logic. Duh.
"...shred of evidence"...erm....so brain waves are not valid evidence for states of consciousness? Cool, please tell that to the scientists who have spend their whole lives researching them. They'll be glad to know. ????

 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

YOU do not seem to even believe in any "god" , yet you pretend to by changing definitions and trying to change the OP topic of the thread with word play.

You got that right at least. I don't "believe" in God just like I don't believe that I have 2 hands and 2 feet.
What definition did I change? Please explain? Or are you able to define God?? If you can, I'm sure looking forward to hear that definition!
What word play did I use? Please elaborate.

 

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

You believe in benefits of meditation...no prob. You're interested in brain waves and states of the human brain...no prob. All good until you start attributing supernatural claims to these things. Now you got a lot of 'splainin to do. If you decide to label these things god...no prob, but if you're truly serious....got a lot of 'splainin to do. 

 

I am not attributing anything. The researchers who work in the fields of neurosciences are the ones who attribute states of consciousness to mystical experiences. Nothing "supernatural" about it, it's completely natural. It's so natural in fact that you don't need anything else but yourself to achieve those states. It really can't get any more natural than that! LoL

 

TRIGGERRRR TIIIIIME ????????????????

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

Humankind has been discussing the existence of God since aeons,  without getting a clear answer, and we aren't going to get one anytime soon.

I'm baffled that in the era of internet,  where ignorance is not an excuse anymore, some people are asking for a proof of the existence of God. 

Are you for real ?

That shows, if there was any doubt, that technology is not making people more intelligent than in the past, perhaps just the opposite. 

Btw, i used to be upset about silly comments and reactions, but thanks to this thread, not anymore. ????

[Elad]

7 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Did you tell that to Mr Vincent and all other science lovers who were demanding scientific proof, posting about the speed of light, posting quantuum theory formulas that not even they could understand?

Who was posting formulas they didn't understand?

Just because we're posting in some farang pub sub forum on TV doesn't mean none of us have studied science at university level. 

[Sunmaster]

4 hours ago, Elad said:

Who was posting formulas they didn't understand?

Just because we're posting in some farang pub sub forum on TV doesn't mean none of us have studied science at university level. 

 

"This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves."

Mr. Skeptic7, June 2021

 

????

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:08 PM, Sunmaster said:

Peace returns to the table and the conversation carries on as it did before the rude interruption.

 

Isn't this a nice story? And such a happy ending! ????????????

 

Indeed.

Seems the thread is being inundated by latecomers that can't be bothered to read any of the past pages, but jump in regurgitating the same things posted many, many times before.

We've seen the back of many in the past 411 pages and no doubt, if we don't feed them, the latest skeptics will get bored and give up too.

 

We can only hope.

[ivor bigun]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed.

Seems the thread is being inundated by latecomers that can't be bothered to read any of the past pages, but jump in regurgitating the same things posted many, many times before.

We've seen the back of many in the past 411 pages and no doubt, if we don't feed them, the latest skeptics will get bored and give up too.

 

We can only hope.

411 pages mate ,i never in my wildest dreams thought that it would run so long ,only goes to show there is a God ,sorry i didnt mean that .????

whoops 413 pages now i see

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by ivor bigun