90 year-old Don is leaving Thailand

[KhaoYai]

21 hours ago, alohatodon2 said:

In an attempt to get ex-pats over age 75 a waiver to be able to stay in Thailand, I wrote letters to the Head Generals at Bangkok and Phuket Immigration and a letter to the Head Police General

I wasn't aware of the 75 year old limit - is that a fact?

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

Nobody needs to contacted, individual taxation statements are available on line on a personalized secure government website.

I mean how do Canadian embassy-personnel "verify" that you didn't supply an official looking piece of paper with bogus figures? 

 

Do you log in and show them - or they have authorization to log in and look at your info?

 

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

It also appears the Danish Embassy has reinstated their income letter and none of the other Embassies have indicated having any issue with viewing documents and issuing an income letter nor has Thai Immigration shown any reluctance to accept them.

I do not disagree that the embassies may have used Thailand's requests as justification for terminating the service.  But I believe the French are still doing stat-docs - what the USA was doing.  And the UK did review documents, but they are out. 

 

Seems to me, Thai-immigration went after the "big ones," and the embassies took the cue.  Immigration is looking at the big numbers - not the Danish - so achieved their goal.  

 

3 hours ago, Benroon said:

ahhh but you're overlooking the 0.0002% (800,000's and condo/second hand car sales etc) that long term expats make to the thai GDP 

 

Self importance is rampant!

You are overlooking all the Thais who lost their good-paying jobs as Westerners have been pushed out - the "crackdown" on retirees just being the latest salvo in an ongoing effort against us.

 

Not caring about Thais, who are the primary victims, is rampant within the thinking of immigration's policy makers, and many here as well.  Many lives don't show up on GDP figures, but that does not excuse pointlessly wrecking them.

 

2 hours ago, the guest said:

Thailand won't miss the expats that's for sure, given their new found cash-cows (Chinese & Russians) have replaced them.

Many Russian-oriented businesses in the Jomtien/Pattaya area were also put out of business by Thai immigration's policy-shifts. 

[jesimps]

21 hours ago, fishtank said:

I cannot see anyone disagreeing with that .

Oh there will be! I could name at least twelve members of the Sunn Specs Club who'll be getting their nickers in a twist right about now over this post.

[Bundooman]

21 hours ago, fishtank said:

I cannot see anyone disagreeing with that .

Sorry to disappoint you - but I disagree with that.

 

It simply isn't true. Maybe it's the attitude of the poster and yourself that actually needs to change...………..

[moe666]

Well Don I hope where ever you are going is where you want to be. You sound like one of those guy who ar always bashing Thailand just to have something to do. Enjoy your new home hope it is better than Thailand was to you.

[moe666]

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

No.  I said,
 

 

No, I mean what I said:

 

 

 

They were not "exposed" - they have diplomatic immunity. 

Thai immigration asked them to do the impossible - "verify" incomes.  In response, they withdrew their letters.  Then, Thai immigration changed back to "certify" - having accomplished the goal of knocking-out the largest providers of income-letters to expats here.

 

 

What I said was not that.  I said:

 

One can "guess" that some were (and still are from other countries) - but the claim I refuted was that people were "caught out" - they weren't.  Thai Immigration could have gone to the FBI (there is a branch in Bangkok) if they had reason to believe someone was lying.  They didn't.

 

And, again, embassies / personnel are not subject to "exposure". 

 

Many met (and still meet) the previous requirements - letter or bank-money - and didn't need an agent before, but they do now.  That is why immigration made the changes. 

 

If it was liars they were after, they would have left the rules as they were, and closed-down all the agents, instead.   Agents still get 1st class service, though - right past the queue, and bypassing the requirements.

 

Some report problems automating this.  Just one mis-step one month, and you are in the agent's domain.

 

For that matter they could send the same money back and forth w/o the income.  The point is making it such a PITA, that people will use agents, instead.

Jack you make a lot of stuff up, I met the requirements before I meet them now and do not need to use an agent. You had a bad experience at immigration maybe you should move on and get over it. Alot of the stuff you say here has no basis in fact.

[kokopelli]

3 hours ago, peterb17 said:

Personally I blame the Americans- pop into the embassy - clutch the flag, hand on heart and declare your income was a million a month. 

No evidence required- just lies.

Eventually - some one caught up with that nonsense.

  

Not really, peter!  Most Americans either declare their actual earnings (which may be in excess of the minimum) or  simply declare the minimum required even though their actual income far exceeds the minimum. If you  must blame someone, then it would be the Thai authorities.

[TKDfella]

Personally, I don't know what many of the comments are really saying. I have said it before, quite a few times, but I'll say again.

We are all different, in fact each individual is unique both scientifically and socially. With different experiences, needs, tolerance levels etc. we stay or leave according to own perspective. We should all respect that. If the OP is trolling (as some here think possible), then he really is scraping the barrel and should be wholly ashamed in showing disrespect to other disabled people.

Some of us have built a life here, family, friends, working, teaching...whatever but some can say 'enough is enough' and some can't, both are equally valid according to your own status and makeup. The reality is that there is no such place as paradise and all places have problems and whenever we change location we just change from one set of problems to another set. For those few who have found their own private paradise, I tip my proverbial 'hat'. To the (genuine) OP I wish good luck...at 90 years old change will be hard.

[Ctkong]

22 hours ago, tingtongtourist said:

Are only leaving because of the 800k in the bank rule?

You can read people reporting here the agent are saying "business as usual"
so if you cant comply now, it suggest you been using agents in the past?

Im suprised you would think any generals/bosses in immigration
would bother with your letters.
I think they would have zero comprehension of this kind of technical English writing
In any case, when they notice its English it most probable destiny is the waste bin.

Maybe you should have got a sympathetic Thai (or even payed a translator) to write a big sob story in Thai.

Actually it would be good if someone would make a template of such a letter (in Thai) that other posters can basically use (and tweak)

 just so we can individually sign our names to as im sure many is facing the same issues.

 

If enough of us send a letter to them, it might have a slightly better chance of gaining traction

If enough people play the loyalty card or sympathy card, maybe some one high up in the authority like the king could take note and make it a foreign policy on compassionate ground ? Given the possibility of Thailand’s image of welcoming foreigners to stay in Thailand being sullied, perhaps they can make an exception for those longtime residents of say 20 years and above a different requirement ? People like don can be the poster child of what is wrong with thailand’s policy .

[Ctkong]

6 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Didn't read all the long post but read enough to get the jist of it.

   I fail to understand, why on earth do you think Thailand (or any other country for that matter) should have any responsibility for Don...if any country should, would that not be his own country ???

 

Because thailand is a Buddhist country with a Buddhist king who give pardons to lifers in jail and we all know Buddhists are high up in the compassionate scale. 

[Just Weird]

23 hours ago, fishtank said:

I cannot see anyone disagreeing with that .

There's something very wrong with your eyesight, then.

[Odysseus123]

No paragraphs.

 

None of these OP's have paragraphs...

 

They are lost in an Anthony Trollope novel.

 

Same signature' every time.

[Just Weird]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:36 PM, alohatodon2 said:

After many months, declining those cities in cold climates, one city with a warm climate said they would have a place for me. Submitting a many-page application and sending e-mails back and forth, they accepted me. 

They "accepted" and "had a place" for you?  For what?  Which country/city? 

 

Why did you bother to write to cities in cold climates as you claim?  How exactly do you write to "a city"?

 

 

[Just Weird]

13 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

In over 10 years I still only have one Thai bank account.

 

Why would anyone need more??

Safety net, perhaps?...you can never have too many bank accounts.

[BertM]

5 hours ago, peterb17 said:

Personally I blame the Americans- pop into the embassy - clutch the flag, hand on heart and declare your income was a million a month. 

No evidence required- just lies.

Eventually - some one caught up with that nonsense.

The British Embassy was the first to announce they would stop issuing income letters due to meetings they had with Thai Immigration officials in May 2018.

Edited April 24, 2019 by BertM

[Just Weird]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:36 PM, alohatodon2 said:

I will somehow,  using a cane or a walker, board a plane

Don't be such a drama queen, Thai airports have wheelchairs and porters to push the infirm around and assist you to the plane. If you're staggering around with a cane or a walker, that will be your choice and it would be the same at any airport anywhere.

[Traubert]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Seems to me, Thai-immigration went after the "big ones," and the embassies took the cue.  Immigration is looking at the big numbers - not the Danish - so achieved their goal.  

 

You are overlooking all the Thais who lost their good-paying jobs as Westerners have been pushed out - the "crackdown" on retirees just being the latest salvo in an ongoing effort against us.

 

Not caring about Thais, who are the primary victims, is rampant within the thinking of immigration's policy makers, and many here as well.  Many lives don't show up on GDP figures, but that does not excuse pointlessly wrecking them.

 

 

No Jack. The big ones are Myanmar, China, Malaysia, Cambodia and Laos. Their numbers dwarf anything to the west, even as a conglomerate. Myanmar is over 1m alone. China and Malaysian companies in Thailand are nett employers, Cambo and Laos provide the labour that the Thai's wont do.

 

A couple of thousand departing whiteys will have a pee in a pond effect on Thailand.

 

You're going to have to get used to the idea that however essential you think you are to the Thai economy, you simply aren't. Even with your travellers cheques.

[Destiny1990]

2 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Oh, dear...

Ur one of those folks just here to keep threads going.

Thats why u only just quoting others..

 

[Just Weird]

*Post removed*

It's a public forum, and, within the rules, I'll post what I like and you have no say in it.  Incidentally, you may quote me anytime you like, no problem.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Scott

[watcharacters]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:53 PM, RotBenz8888 said:

In English? Straight down the bin.

 

Did he say the letters were written in English?

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

On 4/23/2019 at 8:53 PM, RotBenz8888 said:

In English? Straight down the bin.

 

Did he say the letters were written in English?

 

 

Did he say they were written in Thai? Come on, think, just a little.

[Scott]

Baiting, bickering posts and replies removed.   Continue and face a suspension.

 

[longball53098]

18 hours ago, Thaidream said:

It is absolutely the Embassies fault.  Let's look at what was requested and what the Embassies were doing.

 

Thai Immigration asked for  more scrutiny of the documentation for  the Embassy Income letter. At no time to my knowledge did  Thai Imm state they were not going to accept the letters.

 

When the US Embassy was issuing the Income letter- they were having an applicant self certify under penalty of perjury that the info was correct- They were not looking at any 'proof'.  To correct this- all the Embassy would have to do is have the applicant provide either their Social Security letter; military pension letter or other documentation.  No Embassy can or does go back to the source in their home country nor can they for  privacy reasons.  The presentation of documentation AND the Oath would have sufficed and Immigration would have eagerly accept this.  

 

There is no reason to believe Thai immigration or the Thai Government would or could take any legal action against any Embassy if one of their applicants lied- Embassy people have diplomatic immunity while performing their functions.

 

Did some applicants lie- probably- but not many. However- the US Embassy indicated that the applicant who took the Oath was subject to a Felony if they lied and also issued a disclaimer that the Embassy was not responsible if someone lied.

 

Thai Immigration, if they suspected someone was lying could have asked for added documentation. Many have been asked to present their income source and amounts in addition to their Embassy Letter.  If the amounts did not match they could have put the extension on hold and ask the Embassy via the FBI to investigate.

 

IMO- the Embassy simply grew weary of the service; complaints about the cost; etc and decided it did not want to service its citizens any longer.  They went along with the  British and Australian Embassies in lock step and their announcements to the Public  are strikingly similar 

 

 It should be noted that the US Embassy Columbia does provide to this day the exact same service- checking documents presented and issuing an Embassy Income Letter. (Google US Embassy Columbia/US Citizens Services/Notarial)

 

It also appears the Danish Embassy has reinstated their income letter and none of the other Embassies have indicated having any issue with viewing documents and issuing an income letter nor has Thai Immigration shown any reluctance to accept them.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the 3 Embassies could easily view a few documents from its citizens and issue an income letter that would be readily accepted by Thai Immigration and actually make the whole process much easier for all.  Any lying would be easily nipped by referring people who lies for prosecution.

I just read the US Embassy Colombia web page about income letters,,,,,,,,,,,,they are doing exactly what the ACS services in Bangkok said they could not do. Very strange! The US State Dept. is not very consistent in applying the rules globally are they!!!!

[robertson468]

On 4/23/2019 at 9:41 PM, 4evermaat said:

These stories are a bit sad to read, but is it 100% Thailand's fault? 

 

It was easy to sing praises when times were good.  I think it is a bit harsh to bash Thailand immigration unilaterally on the recent policy changes. 

The fact that the Embassies in Thailand either misinterpreted the Immigration Rules, of deliberately abused them is not the fault of Thailand........it is the fault of the Foreign Embassies.  The Rules were quite clear, but the Embassies decided to issue letters of confirmation of income, without checking they were genuine.  When the Embassies were challenged, some said they woud not issue the letter anymore (threw their toys out of the cot attitude), which left quite a few pensioners unable to comply with the Immigration Rules.  The Rules have always been there, but now are being properly applied, which is the the privilege of the Thai Government.  Please remember, we are Guests in this Country and do not have an absolute right to residency here.  The Visa is the Country's agreement to let you stay and if you fail to comply with the rules, then you cannot expect to stay.  I will say again..........have you ever tried to get a UK Visa for a Girlfried/Partner?  There are even more loops to jump through than for a Thai Visa.

[mstevens]

22 hours ago, Old Croc said:

The OP has indicated he won't deposit 800k to live here until his end of days, thus suggesting he does have that money. He refuses to do so because the regime, or the banks, will benefit from his money when he goes.

If this is indeed his concern, a Thai will can take care of this.

[mstevens]

16 hours ago, moe666 said:

Well Don I hope where ever you are going is where you want to be. You sound like one of those guy who ar always bashing Thailand just to have something to do. Enjoy your new home hope it is better than Thailand was to you.

Letter published in today's Bangkok Post letters section from the OP. Poor guy sounds like he ain't going to be happy whatever happens...

[rabas]

51 minutes ago, mstevens said:

Letter published in today's Bangkok Post letters section from the OP. Poor guy sounds like he ain't going to be happy whatever happens...

I think he's happy as a lark making waves. Go, Don, go!  I pray I have that much gumption when I hit 90, wow, still 20 years off.  We should all support him, I suggest we meet as a mob in front of CW immigration, give him a lead-core cane, megaphone, and push his wheelchair into immigration. I'll invite TV 7.

 

Chong 7 si TV peua khoon!  "1000s of ageing farang crawl in to DM division 1, full story at 6".

Edited April 25, 2019 by rabas

[timendres]

19 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The whole point of the income method is that the applicant/retiree actually has 65K per month in sustainable income.  That was the point of the Embassy Letter.  Instead of the US Embassy scrutinizing an applicant's social security statement; military pension statement; Veterans payment or other pension documents- they chose NOT to look at anything and have the applicant swear under Oath the information is true.  Thai Immigration's request boiled down to at least -look at the presented proof.

The US embassy was never providing any verification of income. They were notarizing an affidavit. Nothing more. It was the expat who was declaring that they had an income and signing an affidavit as such, which the embassy notarized. As such, the US embassy had no legal exposure, since they performed their function within the law. Thai immigration declared that this affidavit was not sufficient evidence of income (and it was not), and wanted the embassy to perform income verification. The US Embassy simply declared that this function was beyond their mandate and resources.

 

One might argue that the US government should provide some mechanism to prove income to a foreign government, through whatever agency was most applicable. I doubt this would be performed by the embassy, other than providing the resulting documentation. This may yet happen at a future date, but for now it is not possible to accomplish in a way that satisfies Thai immigration.

[geoffbezoz]

9 minutes ago, rabas said:

I think he's happy as a lark making waves. Go, Don, go!  I pray I have that much gumption when I hit 90, wow, still 20 years off.  We should all support him, I suggest we meet as a mob in front of CW immigration, give him a lead-core cane, megaphone, and push his wheelchair into immigration. I'll invite TV 7.

 

Chong 7 si TV peua khoon!  "1000s of ageing farang crawl in to DM division 1, full story at 6".

Do that and the IO staff will be rubbing their hands with glee.  So many farangs in one spot all ready to have their money stolen from them if they want a further extension of stay.

[timendres]

2 hours ago, robertson468 said:

The fact that the Embassies in Thailand either misinterpreted the Immigration Rules, of deliberately abused them is not the fault of Thailand........it is the fault of the Foreign Embassies.  The Rules were quite clear, but the Embassies decided to issue letters of confirmation of income, without checking they were genuine.

The US embassy has never issued any letter or document confirming income. They simply notarized affidavits of US citizens declaring a level of income. It was when Thai immigration insisted on an actual verification of income that the embassy stated they could not perform this service, and then decided to stop signing affidavits of income, since these would no longer be accepted by Thai immigration.