Pattaya Bar/Go-Go Death Watch

[webfact]

Qatar says U.S. needs Palestinians on board for Middle East peace plan

 

Qatari Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al-Thani, holds a joint press conference with US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo (not pictured) at the Sheraton Grand in the Qatari capital Doha, Qatar January 13, 2019. Andrew Caballero-Reynolds/Pool via Reuters/File Photo

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Qatar said on Sunday that there was a disconnect between the Palestinians and the United States over a U.S. blueprint aimed at ending the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, warning that a solution could not be imposed on Palestinians.

 

The U.S. blueprint, driven by Jared Kushner, Donald Trump’s son-in-law and White House adviser, is seen by Palestinians, and by some Arab officials and politicians, as a plan to finish off the Palestinian cause.

 

"As far as we see, right now there is a disconnect between the Palestinians and the U.S.,” Qatar Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman al-Thani said told reporters in London.

 

“Our position remains very firm: We are going to support any plan that the Palestinians are willing to accept."

 

Kushner, who has been trying to put together a peace plan, said in an interview broadcast last week that the Palestinians deserve "self-determination", but stopped short of backing Palestinian statehood and expressed uncertainty over their ability to govern themselves.

 

While its precise outlines have yet to be revealed, Palestinian and Arab sources who have been briefed on the draft plan say Kushner has jettisoned the two-state solution - the long-standing U.S. and international formula that envisages an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel in the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza.

 

"It cannot be a solution like, sort of, imposed on the Palestinians – no country in the Arab world can accept that," Sheikh Mohammed said.

 

"If the plan is rejected by one of the parties it means the plan is either unfair or just not realistic," he said. "The best scenario is either that both parties accept it or that both parties reject it."

 

Sheikh Mohammed said there would not be a pledging conference. He praised the economic part of the Kushner plan as being "wonderful" but said it needed a sound political foundation.

 

(Reporting by Guy Faulconbridge, Editing by Kevin Liffey and William James)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-06-10

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[Pedrogaz]

How can stealing yet more land and not giving the Palestinians autonomy and statehood going to help the advance peace? What might help peace is giving back the stolen land and retreating to the 1967 borders per the original and unchanged UN mandate.

[Emdog]

Statement of the obvious, well, obvious to everyone but current gang occupying White House.

[candide]

There are only spare seats on board for the Palestinians.....

[Lungstib]

Sounds very Trump. Declare a peace deal. No matter that one side isn't included, just declare it and then call any other opinions fake news and lies. Thats how you become a master of negotiations. 

[Srikcir]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

While its precise outlines have yet to be revealed

Enough has:

Two-state solution didn’t work, Jared Kushner says, signaling possible support for Israeli annexation

April 25, 2019

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/04/solution-signaling-annexation/

 

[Harveyg]

4 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

How can stealing yet more land and not giving the Palestinians autonomy and statehood going to help the advance peace? What might help peace is giving back the stolen land and retreating to the 1967 borders per the original and unchanged UN mandate.

And then Iran could give assurances that they would police the Palestinians should they then start shooting rockets in search of even better borders.  Yeah, that might help peace.  

[pegman]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Enough has:

Two-state solution didn’t work, Jared Kushner says, signaling possible support for Israeli annexation

April 25, 2019

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/04/solution-signaling-annexation/

 

So does one state mean the Palestinians get the vote or does Israel become a true (even more than it now is) apartheid state? 

[mogandave]

And then Iran could give assurances that they would police the Palestinians should they then start shooting rockets...

Start?

[stevenl]

9 hours ago, Emdog said:

Statement of the obvious, well, obvious to everyone but current gang occupying White House.

Very sad that the obvious has to be stated.

[IAMHERE]

Which Palestinians ? Those in the Gaza Strip, those in Lebanon, or the ones  in Israel ? Three very different groups to try and negotiate with. I doubt they can all 3 be pleased.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

How can stealing yet more land and not giving the Palestinians autonomy and statehood going to help the advance peace? What might help peace is giving back the stolen land and retreating to the 1967 borders per the original and unchanged UN mandate.

 

What "more land" do you refer to, in the context of the OP? If you imagined that's what the upcoming meeting is about, suggest you read some more.  As for the term "stolen", sort of gives away the level of argumentation one can expect. And if that wasn't good enough, the there was no "original and unchanged UN mandate" - "the mandate" usually references British rule, the "original" would probably relate to the 1947 partition plan approved by the UN, and as for "unchanged" - the 1967 lines aren't the original ones. 

[Bullie]

9 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

How can stealing yet more land and not giving the Palestinians autonomy and statehood going to help the advance peace? What might help peace is giving back the stolen land and retreating to the 1967 borders per the original and unchanged UN mandate.

Land gained in battle with an AGRESSOR can hardly be called stolen. I call it just rewards for defending yourself against an overwhelming number of enemies. Go Israel.

[Bullie]

5 hours ago, pegman said:

So does one state mean the Palestinians get the vote or does Israel become a true (even more than it now is) apartheid state? 

Palistinians will never get the vote, because, like rabbits in Australia, they would outnumber the Israeli's. This would be tantamount to suicide. Also: if I go to work in another country where I make good money (i.e. palistinians working in Israel) how does that compare to apartheid?

If they wanted they could make palistina as prosperous as Israel is. Sweat of the brow, hard work and perseverance. They should take an example after Israel, not try to destroy it. A century ago Israel looked exactly the same as the palistinian homelands now.

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Bullie

[Orton Rd]

They have been on board since the 30's their actions and answers always end up the same, they do not want a two state solution they want one, their own!

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Enough has:

Two-state solution didn’t work, Jared Kushner says, signaling possible support for Israeli annexation

April 25, 2019

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/04/solution-signaling-annexation/

 

 

The opinion piece linked, convulsed as it is, still doesn't make a clear argument that support for a hypothetical Israeli annexation is actually part of the plan - or even that there's a general subscription to this notion.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post reported and removed.  

 

[bristolboy]

12 hours ago, Bullie said:

Palistinians will never get the vote, because, like rabbits in Australia, they would outnumber the Israeli's. This would be tantamount to suicide. Also: if I go to work in another country where I make good money (i.e. palistinians working in Israel) how does that compare to apartheid?

If they wanted they could make palistina as prosperous as Israel is. Sweat of the brow, hard work and perseverance. They should take an example after Israel, not try to destroy it. A century ago Israel looked exactly the same as the palistinian homelands now.

 

Many black Africans from outside white-ruled South Africa worked in that country back when. So how does the presence of Palestinian workers in Israel prove that Israel is not an apartheid state? 

And actually, Israel tries to limit the number of Palestinian workers by bringing in workers from outside the Mideast.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, Bullie said:

Land gained in battle with an AGRESSOR can hardly be called stolen. I call it just rewards for defending yourself against an overwhelming number of enemies. Go Israel.

 

Stolen, in reference to the initial post-victory conquest, can certainly be seen as a loaded term. But as for "reward", or whatever you may call it, international laws are different. There is no such general provision or accepted custom of taking over land this way. It could be argued that other instances, elsewhere, do not generate the same responses - and it would be correct. That by itself, however, doesn't make the Israeli occupation more legitimate.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, Bullie said:

Palistinians will never get the vote, because, like rabbits in Australia, they would outnumber the Israeli's. This would be tantamount to suicide. Also: if I go to work in another country where I make good money (i.e. palistinians working in Israel) how does that compare to apartheid?

If they wanted they could make palistina as prosperous as Israel is. Sweat of the brow, hard work and perseverance. They should take an example after Israel, not try to destroy it. A century ago Israel looked exactly the same as the palistinian homelands now.

 

 

What does working in Israel got to do with Apartheid claims? Usually, these arguments center on either Israel's treatment of the Palestinian in areas under military occupation, or referencing issues relating to Israel's Arab (Palestinian) minority.

 

The point about following Israel's example is relevant, though. One of the issues plaguing the Palestinians' efforts at self-determination is the lack of meaningful general/national bodies and framework which are focused on creating a foundation for the wished for state. Rather, such bodies and organizations are more to do with either resistance to Israel, or corrupted to the core.

[metisdead]

An off topic trolling post and the reply has been removed. 

 

Off topic nitpicking trolling posts have been reported and removed as well as the replies. 

[Bullie]

11 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Many black Africans from outside white-ruled South Africa worked in that country back when. So how does the presence of Palestinian workers in Israel prove that Israel is not an apartheid state? 

And actually, Israel tries to limit the number of Palestinian workers by bringing in workers from outside the Mideast.

These black africans were first REMOVED from white-ruled SA. 95 % of the palestinians were born in palestinia. The original 60,000 palistinians that actually lived in Israel in 1948/1967 went abroad voluntarily, in the certainty that Israel would be destroyed and that they could then reap the spoils in the aftermath of a war that was brought upon Israel by their own arab brethren. Guess what: they gambled wrong.

Of course Israel NOW tries to limit the number of palestinian workers because a fair number of them have a tendency of trying to attack and kill Israeli's once they are inside the country. Better to get workers from elsewhere. If someone tried to murder you once, would you be happy to let his brother into your house and turn your back?

To the winner the spoils, and Israel MORE than earned it.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Bullie

[Bullie]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Stolen, in reference to the initial post-victory conquest, can certainly be seen as a loaded term. But as for "reward", or whatever you may call it, international laws are different. There is no such general provision or accepted custom of taking over land this way. It could be argued that other instances, elsewhere, do not generate the same responses - and it would be correct. That by itself, however, doesn't make the Israeli occupation more legitimate.

Plenty of examples from the last century. France took parts of Germany, repeatedly. Russia took a part of Poland after WW II, and still retains some. Russia annexed the Krim, recently. China took Tibet, claiming it used to belong forever. Countries, especially in Africa, were and are continuously shifting borders and declaring independency. Think Pakistan and India, Sri lanka.

The State of Israel has thousands of years old claims on the land,  as evidenced by the old testament. There is much to be said for legitimacy.

 

Besides: reality and necessity trump legality every time. Being surrounded by arab nations that for the most part are still !! out on the complete annihilation of Israel it would be suicide to give up the Golan hights at this time, or any time until the arabs finally give up on their hatred of the Jews.

And we all know when that is going to happen.

[candide]

54 minutes ago, Bullie said:

The State of Israel has thousands of years old claims on the land,  as evidenced by the old testament. There is much to be said for legitimacy.

The people who use this argument are usually the same who state that Palestinians should forget what they used to own 70 years ago.....

[mogandave]

Many black Africans from outside white-ruled South Africa worked in that country back when. So how does the presence of Palestinian workers in Israel prove that Israel is not an apartheid state? 
And actually, Israel tries to limit the number of Palestinian workers by bringing in workers from outside the Mideast.

How many blacks were in the South African Apartheid government?

[bristolboy]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:04 PM, Bullie said:

Palistinians will never get the vote, because, like rabbits in Australia, they would outnumber the Israeli's. This would be tantamount to suicide. Also: if I go to work in another country where I make good money (i.e. palistinians working in Israel) how does that compare to apartheid?

If they wanted they could make palistina as prosperous as Israel is. Sweat of the brow, hard work and perseverance. They should take an example after Israel, not try to destroy it. A century ago Israel looked exactly the same as the palistinian homelands now.

 

Not possible for Palestinians to make Palestine prosperous. From the beginning of the occupation Israel passed laws and administered existing ones that made it virtually impossible for Palestinians to prosper. Instead, it made them a captive labor force.

[ezzra]

32 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Not possible for Palestinians to make Palestine prosperous. From the beginning of the occupation Israel passed laws and administered existing ones that made it virtually impossible for Palestinians to prosper. Instead, it made them a captive labor force.

So your premise is that now, all Palestinians are poor and enslaved under the israeli 'laws'? have you ever been to israel or the palestinian territories or you based your assumptions on what you hear on the BBC and Al jazeera and other anti israel publications? Israel and jews are  the eternal scapegoat for people that for them it's easy to hate and vilify and for words like apartheid and stolen to so fluently roll of the tongue...

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, ezzra said:

So your premise is that now, all Palestinians are poor and enslaved under the israeli 'laws'? have you ever been to israel or the palestinian territories or you based your assumptions on what you hear on the BBC and Al jazeera and other anti israel publications? Israel and jews are  the eternal scapegoat for people that for them it's easy to hate and vilify and for words like apartheid and stolen to so fluently roll of the tongue...

Thanks for inventing contentions I never made. And invoking anti-semitism as a way to counter easily checkable facts is just nonsense.

[mogandave]

Not possible for Palestinians to make Palestine prosperous. From the beginning of the occupation Israel passed laws and administered existing ones that made it virtually impossible for Palestinians to prosper. Instead, it made them a captive labor force.

How about an example of these laws and how they work?

[candide]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

How about an example of these laws and how they work?
 

 

Starting with restrictions to access to natural resources.

"Area C, designated by interim peace deals signed in the 1990s, represents 61 percent of West Bank territory, and Israel cites security concerns for the restrictions it imposes there.

According to the World Bank, currently less than 1 percent of Area C, which is already built up, is designated by the Israeli authorities for Palestinian use, while the remainder is heavily restricted or off-limits to Palestinians."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-worldbank/world-bank-calls-for-steps-to-bolster-palestinian-economy-idUSKCN1BM2R4

 

Add to it: restrictions of movement due to numerous settlements, resources captured by settlements, etc...