Hi all

 

Looking for some help or ideas. My father has been living in Pattaya for the last 15 years, owns his own apartment and has been on a retirement visa. However over the last year it seems that he has been developing dementia and is now unable to manage his daily finances etc. I flew out in March as he was constantly on the phone saying he had no money even though he has over £2,000 going into his account monthly. After arriving in Thailand, first thing I had to do was sort out an issue with the police as he's been involved in a bump in his pick up and that had been seized by the police. With other things it cost over £1500 to sort the mess out.

After looking at his finances it seems that he has spent over £55,000 in the last year, so all of his income and all of his savings. I'm not sure due to his dementia that he's being taken advantage of etc. I have  stopped the big payments going into his account and now send him a weekly allowance. He would not return with me to the UK and gets very cross when it's mentioned. I'm now having emails from his apartment manager saying that he is asking for money from other residents and can be come abusive with them.

 

What I'm trying to find out is how would I get him deported for his own safety etc. There is a ticket in his passport that states he was granted a 90 day extension till 4th May 2019, he doesn't have the funds to support himself. Any ideas.

 

MAny thanks

You don't want to get him deported. That process could kill him.

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3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You don't want to get him deported. That process could kill him.

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How do you know that?

Have you tried the embassy for help or advise?

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You don't want to get him deported. That process could kill him.

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In what way?? What makes you think that??

Just now, Tagged said:

Have you tried the embassy for help or advise?

Just tried ringing the Thai emabassy in London but phone keeps ringing and no answer. Will try again

Just now, Williams9 said:

In what way?? What makes you think that??

If the imigration take him in, he will be detained before transferred out. You do not want that to happen to him. 

Just now, Williams9 said:

Just tried ringing the Thai emabassy in London but phone keeps ringing and no answer. Will try again

Thai embassy? You have to call your embassy in Bangkok, or consulat in Pattya if you got one. 

1 minute ago, Tagged said:

If the imigration take him in, he will be detained before transferred out. You do not want that to happen to him. 

Any suggestion on how to get him out then??

I had this exact situation with a friend of mine. He developed dementia (88 years old) and we found him a nurse and he moved in house in UBON paying for her services around the clock . After a year or so due to his deterioration she could no longer take care of him so she dropped him off at the US embassy and drove off

 

Embassy paid for a short stay in a nursing home and paid for his flight home including having a contact meet him at the airport and he is now in a nursing home US

 

Very Impressive.

1 minute ago, madmen said:

I had this exact situation with a friend of mine. He developed dementia (88 years old) and we found him a nurse and he moved in house in UBON paying for her services around the clock . After a year or so due to his deterioration she could no longer take care of him so she dropped him off at the US embassy and drove off

 

Embassy paid for a short stay in a nursing home and paid for his flight home including having a contact meet him at the airport and he is now in a nursing home US

 

Very Impressive.

Problem is he still has capacity to know what's going on and refused to even think about coming back with me. He won't go anywhere to be looked after

 

28 minutes ago, Williams9 said:

Problem is he still has capacity to know what's going on and refused to even think about coming back with me. He won't go anywhere to be looked after

But is he sufficiently compos mentis to realise that he is now on overstay, if this statement in your OP is to be believed?

42 minutes ago, Williams9 said:

There is a ticket in his passport that states he was granted a 90 day extension till 4th May 2019,

And is he fully aware of the consequences of overstaying, as spelt out in detail in the following link?

https://tratimmigration.com/thailand-visa-overstay-regulations/

How do you know that?

I do not know that. I said could not would. Nobody in their right mind would try to get a loved one deported. That is a serious situation in Thailand typically involving detention. That should strictly be a very last resort. Not an opening idea.

 

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If the imigration take him in, he will be detained before transferred out. You do not want that to happen to him. 

Exactly.

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I had this exact situation with a friend of mine. He developed dementia (88 years old) and we found him a nurse and he moved in house in UBON paying for her services around the clock . After a year or so due to his deterioration she could no longer take care of him so she dropped him off at the US embassy and drove off
 
Embassy paid for a short stay in a nursing home and paid for his flight home including having a contact meet him at the airport and he is now in a nursing home US
 
Very Impressive.

That's a lovely story but I very seriously doubt most such situations have such a "happy" ending.

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The problem with "getting him deported" here is that a person who finds themselves in that position is likely going to end up getting tossed in a rather unpleasant Thai prison/jail called the Immigration Detention Center in Bangkok, and held there until overpriced travel arrangements are made for his airplane ticket home.

 

There's no "nice" or polite way of getting deported out of Thailand, AFAIK... There's only the very unpleasant, miserable way, especially for an elderly person who may not have his wits about him, and be likely unable to navigate matters very well on his own.

 

Very difficult situation. You may try to get some intervention if he agrees in the form of psychiatric help, perhaps with some medication. If he gets stabilized he can maybe be persuaded to go home. I know this is a very difficult sell, but there is a private psychiatric hospital in Bangkok that can help in this situation. But, he would have to be docile enough to accept going to visit a professional in this setting, and then accepting the results.

54 minutes ago, madmen said:

I had this exact situation with a friend of mine. He developed dementia (88 years old) and we found him a nurse and he moved in house in UBON paying for her services around the clock . After a year or so due to his deterioration she could no longer take care of him so she dropped him off at the US embassy and drove off

 

Embassy paid for a short stay in a nursing home and paid for his flight home including having a contact meet him at the airport and he is now in a nursing home US

 

 

If that's a true story, I'm surprised they did it...

 

All the reports I've seen thru the years have the U.S. Embassy disclaiming any direct financial support for U.S. citizens in need, pretty much regardless of the circumstances.  Unless perhaps they just fronted the funds and were paid back by the gentlemen's family/relations back home.

 

 

I would think he would have to be declared incompetent legally in the U.K. (I guess based on a Thai doctors diagnosis) and you granted power of attorney for signing powers. I guess that would be the easy part. Definitely a real tough situation and probably one that we'll see more often.  

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

Very difficult situation. You may try to get some intervention if he agrees in the form of psychiatric help, perhaps with some medication. If he gets stabilized he can maybe be persuaded to go home. I know this is a very difficult sell, but there is a private psychiatric hospital in Bangkok that can help in this situation. But, he would have to be docile enough to accept going to visit a professional in this setting, and then accepting the results.

It is very hard as I'm in the UK. When I went out last time in March to try and get him to come back with we there was no way he was going to agree to it. The problem with dementia the person becomes very erratic in their thought processes etc. I would have a conversation for 10 minutes and I would think I'd won him round to the idea, but then he would forget when I spoke to him about it again in 20 mins. Very difficult. Thank you for your advice.

4 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

I would think he would have to be declared incompetent legally in the U.K. (I guess based on a Thai doctors diagnosis) and you granted power of attorney for signing powers. I guess that would be the easy part. Definitely a real tough situation and probably one that we'll see more often.  

 

 

 

Yes that is the route I need to go down. I do have a signed document from a Thai law firm stating that he has given me powers if he is diagnosed incompetent. I did that about 8 yrs ago. The thing is I guess he would have to be detained in a hospital or something to be able to get that diagnosis done. He won't go voluntarily.

 

Just now, Williams9 said:

Yes that is the route I need to go down. I do have a signed document from a Thai law firm stating that he has given me powers if he is diagnosed incompetent. I did that about 8 yrs ago. The thing is I guess he would have to be detained in a hospital or something to be able to get that diagnosis done. He won't go voluntarily.

 

Thailand is not a very good place when it comes to mental health issues. The facilities for that are few, and not always very competent. And there doesn't seem to be much supportive coordination/cooperation between the police and the mental health services when dealing with problems. The problems typically just get tossed into jail.

 

A mentally disturbed Thai citizen who's arrested for acting out in some manner MIGHT have some chance of getting referred to a mental health facility after spending some time in the local jail.

 

But a foreigner, the Thai police and courts probably wouldn't bother. They'd just take the easy way out, saying the guy is on illegal overstay and thus subject to deportation. Ship him down to the IDC in Bangkok, and let him stew there until someone arranges and pays for a flight back to his home country.

 

 

Just now, Williams9 said:

Yes that is the route I need to go down. I do have a signed document from a Thai law firm stating that he has given me powers if he is diagnosed incompetent. I did that about 8 yrs ago. The thing is I guess he would have to be detained in a hospital or something to be able to get that diagnosis done. He won't go voluntarily.

 

That's too bad man, I feel for you. My mom died 7 yrs ago with full blown Alzheimer, it really tears you up trying to do the right thing. I told my wife if I start to have symptoms like my ma, I'm checking myself out. You could try to get someone to come out to where he's at, tell the doc you'll pay extra for the house call. Just make sure you have witnesses etc. Just make up an elaborate story to get him to go along, I used to have to do that with my mom to reduce extra stress. Best of luck to you. 

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thailand is not a very good place when it comes to mental health issues. The facilities for that are few, and not always very competent. And there doesn't seem to be much supportive coordination/cooperation between the police and the mental health services when dealing with problems. The problems typically just get tossed into jail.

 

A mentally disturbed Thai citizen who's arrested for acting out in some manner MIGHT have some chance of getting referred to a mental health facility after spending some time in the local jail.

 

But a foreigner, the Thai police and courts probably wouldn't bother. They'd just take the easy way out, saying the guy is on illegal overstay and thus subject to deportation. Ship him down to the IDC in Bangkok, and let him stew there until someone arranges and pays for a flight back to his home country.

 

 

Yes, it never ends well unless you take this into private care. Manarom private psychiatric hospital has the type of doctors and process that are needed, but there has to be some cooperation from the patient, and it cannot be done from overseas, it is an intensive process. Failing that, the Thai law gets involved, and as you say, it's efficient but absolutely the last thing the family would want to happen.

This is one of the few mental health facilities I'm aware of in BKK:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manarom_Hospital

 

Keema, perhaps the OP could consult either in country or by phone with one of the doctors there, and see if they have any suggestion on a path forward that would allow the gentleman to be returned home in some civilized manner....

 

Maybe, just maybe, they might have some official path that could be pursued that would spare the gentlemen having to go thru the normal IDC process....en route to going out of the country. Maybe direct from Manarom to the airport, or something like that.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

This is one of the few mental health facilities I'm aware of in BKK:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manarom_Hospital

 

Keema, perhaps the OP could consult either in country or by phone with one of the doctors there, and see if they have any suggestion on a path forward that would allow the gentleman to be returned home in some civilized manner....

 

Maybe, just maybe, they might have some official path that could be pursued that would space the gentlemen having to go thru the normal IDC process....en route to going out of the country. Maybe direct from Manarom to the airport, or something like that.

 

 

 

Yeah, there are public hospitals, but not really accessible for someone like this in this situation.  Manarom is expensive, but if a trusted family member can fly to Thailand, get the father stabilized, and then accompany him on the flight back home, the horrible likely legal path can be avoided. Otherwise, it looks like a potentially traumatic outcome. 

That's a lovely story but I very seriously doubt most such situations have such a "happy" ending.

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There musty be dozens of cases like this every year but I'm yet to see an elderly farang laying in the gutter and trust me they don't all have loving family like OP.

My friends family drained his life savings when he gave them banking details so they could send money to bumingrad hospital

Embassies can be compassionate but there needs to be no doubt.

I sympathize  with your situation.

Have you  actually  ever approached Thai Immigration to ask them if there is a "soft " way to  return him to the UK  under the circumstances?

Despite  the  gloom and doom brigade Thai authorities  can have compassion when not  affronted but asked  for  advice.

I guess you gave him some money? 

You should have sold his truck (he should not be driving if he has dementia) 

Tough call, to trick him all the way to the airport and on to a plane will be difficult, then he may get angry on the plane and cause more problems.  Even if you have power of attorney and have legal right - same situation

Wish you the best  - maybe poverty will get him to change his mind

2 hours ago, Williams9 said:

There is a ticket in his passport that states he was granted a 90 day extension till 4th May 2019, he doesn't have the funds to support himself.

Not sure what this 90-day extension is. If he was in a retirement extension and his extension expires on 4th May, 2019, he has  already overstayed (with severe consequences if caught) unless he got another extension. 

I think you must come to Thailand to sort out his legal status. If he is leaving here for 15-year, he is likely to have a GF (most likely a  sex worker if she does not have a regular job). Talk to her if she can take care of him when you're not in Thailand and persuade him to go back. If he does not have a GF, I don't understand the lure of Thailand - a third world country rules by an authoritarian government, air is polluted and streets are over flowing with garbage and stinky. May be you can find out the lure that is holding him back here in Thailand if he does not have a GF. If he has lots of friends in Pattaya, ask them to take care of him if possible. Also, he may have spent 55K in bars surrounded by sex workers asking him to buy lady drinks. Bars in Thailand are brothels and bar owners/managers are a pimps.