Three high-speed train projects shelved due to lack investor interest

[spidermike007]

1 minute ago, ICELANDMAN said:

I never see Thailand  highways outside Bangkok

You mean you never travel? Many of the highways here are excellent. Plenty of four land divided roads. If what you mean by highways is limited access freeways, that is a far different story. 

[dj2018]

 Should have bought more BTS/MRT trains instead of attack helicopters.

[spidermike007]

4 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

Yes, some countries are looking at HS freight trains, hence my use of the word "now".

I'm not an engineer, but I image the weight involved with freight would necessitate heavy duty rail systems and costs that Thailand wouldn't spend. (I don't know how levitating systems would handle freight trains).

You may be right. I only heard some speculation that the Nong Khai route was being largely sponsored, or encouraged by the Chinese as a means to move freight. It does make sense, but I have no idea about the logistics or engineering involved.

[ICELANDMAN]

3 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

You mean you never travel? Many of the highways here are excellent. Plenty of four land divided roads. If what you mean by highways is limited access freeways, that is a far different story. 

I mean like really highways the western countries, where you don't see bicycles and cows on highways

[Cadbury]

3 hours ago, chainarong said:

Japan would also determine if Thailand can afford such a project, obviously it cannot, Transfer of Japan's H/S technology was done in China for the first and last time, China immediately claimed copy right , Japan took China to the international court , undoubtedly China lost and amazing abided by the decision , Japan vowed it will never again transfer its technology, well,  not to a country that's close to China anyway. 

Japan has offered low interest loans to Thailand but are refusing to participate as partners in the project or provide technical assistance. Thailand is demanding they be partners.

Like you say, security of HS technology plus unprofitability seem to be the reasons. My guess is there just aren't the numbers to make money out of it and as much as Thailand are not happy about it Japan is not just there to be a charity donor.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/japan-rejects-calls-to-invest-in-thailands-bullet-train

[newatthis]

1 hour ago, ThePioneer said:

 

Most probably the Japanese are following the Hopewell case very closely, and learning from that.

A very good point!!

Every time I read about Hopewell, I wonder "who would want to do business with a country that continually refuses to pay despite all the court rulings against it? Does Thailand understand the international damage it is doing to itself by withholding payment?"

 Didn't it learn from the impounding of the airplane in Germany?

[Grumpy John]

With huge reserves of US$'s it would be quite easy for the government to find the funds themselves and avoid paying interest on borrowed money.

[mfd101]

As usual in this country, the financials are wonky, the economics are not understood, and, as for the engineering, ...

[grumpy 4680]

    That's good news,  What Thailand really has needed for many years is a good Besic railway system, that carries freight and passengers with a reliable time table. and stays on the track.

[Cadbury]

Interesting that the CP Group consortium still have not signed off on the three airports HS train deal. And the government is getting a bit techie about it and planning all sorts of nasty things if they don't come good with the signatures.

Could be the CP Group are having second thoughts about getting into bed with the SRT. They can see what hell Hopewell are going through at present with a very nasty and vengeful Thai government. 

[Stocky]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

For the Bangkok-Surat Thani high-speed project, the government doubts that the project is economically viable, due to high investment costs and the short 600km route, which may not attract investors from the private sector, said the sources, noting that a dual-track south-bound route is currently under construction and is due to be operational in the next 3-4 years.

The upgrade to dual-track and electrification is far more important and much needed. Malaysia completed its upgrade several years ago now, 3-4 years for Thailand's completion is optimistic. High speed 21st Century vanity projects can wait, try getting the railway out of the 19th Century first!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

sort of demonstrates why passenger railways only work in areas where government rules and is able to either run roughshod over the environment or be prepared to subsize. Ya aint making any money from it.

 

Public transportation, including rail lines, is supposed to be just that... PUBLIC... funded by the public for the public. And the fares are aimed at helping cover the construction and operating costs. PUBLIC transportation isn't typically supposed to be a profit making venture.

 

But here in Thailand, new rail public transportation seems to be more PROFIT transportation, where private companies build these things with some government support and then expect to profit from them immensely not just by fares but also by related commercial and residential development projects.

 

Serving and meeting the public's real transportation needs these days seems to be mostly an afterthought for these guys.

 

[Eric Loh]

Mighty loss of face for Prayut who had boasted about these flagship projects that will spearhead Thailand 4.0. Also a mighty loss of side income.  

[alfalfa19]

a shortage of well heeled suckers

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, malibukid said:

attack helicopters and subs more important, have to get your priorities straight.

 

Don't forget the tanks, armored personnel carriers, and a few Navy submarines and destroyers....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Skallywag said:

I am living it dude. Have not driven or owned an infernal combustion vehicle for over a year now since living in LOS.   Have met and spoken to a lot of people by walking and taking our shuttle that I would not have met otherwise

This is what "retirement" means to me.  No worries about driving, parking, paying for fuel, insurance, maintenance.  No stress navigating through these busy streets.  

 

Not ideal for many, but for now it is working for me as am never in a hurry to be anywhere. 

 

Ditto on that. I haven't driven a car in 10+ years, except on brief trips back to the home country where it's necessary. That's one of my main reasons for living in BKK -- don't want a car, don't need a car, can get by 90% of the time either by walking or by BTS/MRT.

 

I'd use my bicycle for transit outside as well, if the air wasn't so bad much of the year and I didn't live in deathly fear of getting nailed by some Thai motorist.

 

[thaiguzzi]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This is a very tragic development. Thailand does not have efficient transportation alternatives other than air travel. And the roads are choked with trucks, so an alternative freight method desperately needs to be established. The nation will not ever be considered a developed country without the high speed rail project. Unless they decide to open the Hua Hin airport, the Surat line is desperately needed. 

 

What is the Japanese reference? They cannot build the CM line without them? Yet, the Japanese have never invested in a rail line outside of Japan? Those questions were never asked?

 

A civilian government is required to get this done. One with real negotiators. And some intellect. The army is a sorry, hapless, grossly incompetent house of fools. 

Sorry, but does the UK have a high speed rail project?

Does the USA?

Spain? Italy?

Sweden? Norway?

I believe the only high speed trains i can think of are Japan, France & Germany.

All the above are "developed countries"....

 IMO better get the normal speed railway system sorted first, and updated.

That alone will cost billions., but will be worthwhile & money well spent.

Forget the HSR.

[kimchibob]

Sorry, but does the UK have a high speed rail project?
Does the USA?
Spain? Italy?
Sweden? Norway?
I believe the only high speed trains i can think of are Japan, France & Germany.
All the above are "developed countries"....
 IMO better get the normal speed railway system sorted first, and updated.
That alone will cost billions., but will be worthwhile & money well spent.
Forget the HSR.

South Korea also.

[DJ54]

Thought they already had China to invest 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

50 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

Interesting that the CP Group consortium still have not signed off on the three airports HS train deal.

 

That was kind of the broader picture that the OP article seems to leave unanswered...

 

So they're not going to build the northern line, and they're not going to build the southern line...

 

So what if anything of the HS projects ARE they still planning to build?

 

Perhaps this is all about the Thai govt. deciding they need to go all-in for the Chinese and forget everything else...

 

Quote

 

However, Mr. Chayatham Promsorn, deputy director of the Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning, said that the Thai government has set its sights on developing the Thai-Chinese high-speed train project between Bangkok and Nong Khai in the Northeast, which will connect with the Chinese3-Lao high-speed train system under the Belt and Road Initiative.

 

Quote

...Construction of the first phase of the project, between Bangkok and Nakhon Ratchasima, is due to be completed in the next two years

 

    

 

[neeray]

6 hours ago, smutcakes said:

How much skim has been siphoned off on feasibility studies, environmental etc etc. Job done for the boys.

None of these studies were even required. All they had to do was ask the TVF contingency and they would have had the answer for free. 

Rock solid analysis. 

Oh, on second thought, no good, because we’re all Farang. 

[NCC1701A]

i find this to be very sad.

 

i was looking forward to riding the high speed train to China as I was being placed in a communist reeducation camp.

 

[poohy]

Live near southern route south of PKK Theres flyovers being built over every small crossing  some of these crossing in some case take about 25 cars a day

Now no high speed just dual track  What a complete waste of money

[Cadbury]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That was kind of the broader picture that the OP article seems to leave unanswered...

 

So they're not going to build the northern line, and they're not going to build the southern line...

 

So what if anything of the HS projects ARE they still planning to build?

 

Perhaps this is all about the Thai govt. deciding they need to go all-in for the Chinese and forget everything else...

 

 

    

 

You seem confused. They are NOT building the Japanese proposed Bangkok Chiang Mai link. The Japanese are not interested for economic reasons.

The China Bangkok to Nong Khai deal HS train is supposed to be still on track albeit at snails pace. 

The only other one is the three airports HS train which the CP Group won on tender but as yet have not signed off. The government has told them to sign the contract or else. Another newspaper has that story.

There may be other HS trains which I don't know about. I am never sure what HS train dreams Prayut has.

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

 

[BobbyL]

Inevitable. Did Prayut and his goons actually foresee the possibility of implementing a system such as this in a country whose current rail network looks like something from about 1920. 

[johnarth]

dam I shore was hoping the train (any train) to Trat would happen the highway to Bangkok is a mine field even though it is a four lane plus the road repairs are a nightmare and never ending but the new 4 lane from here to Cambodia is going well

[shy coconut]

5 hours ago, legend49 said:

the way they are impeding tourists there wont be any.

How are they impeding tourists, genuine ones?

 

Please don't mention TM30 etc as that is not relevant in the case 

of a genuine tourist, neither is Joe Schmo being refused entry at

Suvarnabhumi because he's spent 17 out of the last 18 months in

Thailand on METVs and border hops.

 

The exchange rates may put some people off, as hotel prices

are higher, but outside of this forum, I don't see a great deal of

negativity in the real world regarding Thailand as a holiday destination.

 

 

[Sakeopete]

Honestly I can't imagine why anyone would invest in a corrupt-o-bureaucracy government project in Thailand. 

[SuperTed]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This is a very tragic development. Thailand does not have efficient transportation alternatives other than air travel. And the roads are choked with trucks, so an alternative freight method desperately needs to be established. The nation will not ever be considered a developed country without the high speed rail project. Unless they decide to open the Hua Hin airport, the Surat line is desperately needed. 

 

What is the Japanese reference? They cannot build the CM line without them? Yet, the Japanese have never invested in a rail line outside of Japan? Those questions were never asked?

 

A civilian government is required to get this done. One with real negotiators. And some intellect. The army is a sorry, hapless, grossly incompetent house of fools. 

This is a disaster for Thailand. HSR has made incredible impact in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, PRC. No better way to spread wealth earners out geographically across the country. It benefits wealthy and poor when high income people can live in their home towns and commute to business centers. Transport costs go down throughout the country because traffic improves and frees up rail cars, reducing shipping times as well. The housing market rationalizes, new home starts jump outside the big cities.

 

No surprise partners were not willing to provide technology transfer. Should not have been expected. Japan does provide significant debt financing to countries which buy their rail systems; does not provide equity financing. Wonder if this decision has something to do with China tightening its belt in anticipation of a long trade war? Need to keep those USD reserves in the bank? Or government distancing itself from China?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

32 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

You seem confused. They are NOT building the Japanese proposed Bangkok Chiang Mai link. The Japanese are not interested for economic reasons.

The China Bangkok to Nong Khai deal HS train is supposed to be still on track albeit at snails pace. 

The only other one is the three airports HS train which the CP Group won on tender but as yet have not signed off. The government has told them to sign the contract or else. Another newspaper has that story.

There may be other HS trains which I don't know about. I am never sure what HS train dreams Prayut has.

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

 

I don't think I'm confused at all...

 

They're shelving the BKK to CM North Line. And they're shelving the South Line...

 

But apparently, going full steam ahead with the BKK to Northeast line connecting to Laos-China...

 

So as I said, appear to be putting all their eggs in the China basket to appease their masters.

 

And meanwhile, the 3 airports line seems in limbo.