Mandatory health insurance for retirees falls flat as ‘Non-Imm O’ visa loophole exposed

[Enki]

On 11/3/2019 at 8:14 AM, jayceenik said:

He meant money in the bank to pay the hospital bills!

 

Yes, he obviously meant that. And that is not how the health system in a first world country works. 

You pay your monthly rates, to keep the infrastructure running, and the treatment is free. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Enki

[David T Pike]

Hi! My wife who is Thai and I are moving to Chiang Mai from the Philippines. I love the fact there is a loophole for Marriage/non-immigrant visa holders if it works. I am a 100% disabled USAF Veteran and as of right now I am un-insurable. I had a liver transplant in 2013 and now have heart problems. Nothing serious. I have diabetes and my back is falling apart also. No one wants to touch me. How does that work out in Thailand. I have a very "healthy" pension so money is no problem... Any thoughts on this?

 

    

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, David T Pike said:

Hi! My wife who is Thai and I are moving to Chiang Mai from the Philippines. I love the fact there is a loophole for Marriage/non-immigrant visa holders if it works. I am a 100% disabled USAF Veteran and as of right now I am un-insurable. I had a liver transplant in 2013 and now have heart problems. Nothing serious. I have diabetes and my back is falling apart also. No one wants to touch me. How does that work out in Thailand. I have a very "healthy" pension so money is no problem... Any thoughts on this?

 

    

Well only that it is quite possible that any such "loopholes" may be closed at any time. 

[David T Pike]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well only that it is quite possible that any such "loopholes" may be closed at any time. 

I am surprised they don't have a provision for the un-insurable but have money for medical care. Maybe have a medical trust set aside just for such circumstances?

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, David T Pike said:

I am surprised they don't have a provision for the un-insurable but have money for medical care. Maybe have a medical trust set aside just for such circumstances?

That doesn't exist at present but is a possibility going forward. 

 

 

[Barry343]

Thanks to everyone for exposing the loophole which now will be possible closed what was needed was a way for the government to scrap the immigration law that was brought down last April. What should have been done was a law of

no entry of tourists to Thailand who don't have medical cover.

[glennb6]

On 10/27/2019 at 2:57 PM, Mango Bob said:

The insurance is supposed to be for those who apply for an O/A visa after 31 Oct 19 and extend here.   Those who have  been here on an O/A visa in the past and are on an extension to stay now do not need the insurance.  Why can't be Immigrations Chiefs read their own Police Report.  What the hell is the matter with these people.

that may or may not be how the law is written, but at Jomtien office they have signs plastered all about  that if you are extending your LT visa after 10/31 you must have insurance. However their "O-A visa extension check list" they may give you at the info desk says nothing about insurance as a requirement - of course not... Oh, and having less than a full year worth of ins coverage means they will limit your extension to the length that your ins is valid for. FYI YMMV

[glennb6]

On 10/27/2019 at 5:09 PM, Russell17au said:

There is no loop hole at all. The facts are that with an "O-A" visa you only had to show that you had the money and that money could be in any account in any country. This insurance <deleted> I believe was done to get you off the "O-A" visa and get you on the Non-Imm "O" where your money MUST be in a Thai bank account which gives the Thai banks and the Thai government control of your money. They had no control or use of your money whilst you are on the "O-A" visa.

??? Initial app for an O-A outside of Thailand reqs 800k in a bank, Thai OR otherwise, but O-A extensions require the mthly income or 800k in a Thai bank. Not sure where you're getting your info.

[sandyf]

33 minutes ago, glennb6 said:

that may or may not be how the law is written, but at Jomtien office they have signs plastered all about  that if you are extending your LT visa after 10/31 you must have insurance. However their "O-A visa extension check list" they may give you at the info desk says nothing about insurance as a requirement - of course not... Oh, and having less than a full year worth of ins coverage means they will limit your extension to the length that your ins is valid for. FYI YMMV

Quite. Hidden agendas are exactly that, hidden. If for example Immigration wanted to reduce the number of long term extensions, the O-A would now be an easy target. They may well take the view that those on O-A visas should stay on those visas or convert to a Non O extension. We have seen in the past attempts to move people from marriage to retirement extensions.

Insurance for long term expats is a bit of a side issue and does not address the real problem. The drain on the Thai medical facilities is primarily down to short term visitors and until they come out with a viable solution, it will all remain a bit foggy.

[gk10002000]

who says it is a loophole?  The order may have had its origins as yet only rumored.  Seems like an obvious money grab attempt to me by the Thais and insurance companies and who knows what kickbacks or bag money is involved.  And tying it to OA visas which are only obtained in one's home country, the scare factor of not being able to get into Thailand as a retiree no doubt induces many people to panic purchase the insurance.

 

  And of course different immigration offices are interpreting the order differently and that the insurance requirement applies to extension renewals and not just new OA visas

[jayceenik]

Early this year a Ubon Aussie 65yo buddy retired on an original O-A did his 90-day and asked about the scam insurance. He was told that it wouldn't apply to any stay permit extensions. Only to new O-A and their initial one-year extension. At about the same time it was reported from Phuket that the Imm boss there had said the same thing. Actually that's the way I interpreted that new police law too. Farangs who are truly retired here are not likely to do a runner on a hospital bill and thus running afoul of the law jeopardize their retirement in LOS.  My take is that it's mostly tourists who make runners - if indeed they do. 

Anyway, many now on O-A will loophole to O. The insurers will not get their expected bonanza premiums. And they will ask for the O to get hit too with the insurance scheme. But as long as they don't get to the tourist visas the runner problem will persist. 

As for me I have an original O and I'm too old to be insurable. I'll have to bail out back to Belgium if they hit me with insurance in the future. I have good money in the bank  to pay for any unexpected hospital bill but of course there is no profit there for the selected Thai insurance companies.

[Jingthing]

I agree that the fact that O based retirement extensions do not require health insurance isn't literally a loophole. It's a loaded word that expats would probably be better off not propagating. 

[Peter Denis]

22 hours ago, David T Pike said:

Hi! My wife who is Thai and I are moving to Chiang Mai from the Philippines. I love the fact there is a loophole for Marriage/non-immigrant visa holders if it works. I am a 100% disabled USAF Veteran and as of right now I am un-insurable. I had a liver transplant in 2013 and now have heart problems. Nothing serious. I have diabetes and my back is falling apart also. No one wants to touch me. How does that work out in Thailand. I have a very "healthy" pension so money is no problem... Any thoughts on this?

Hi David,

When applying from your home-country (Philippines?) for a Non Imm OA (long-stay) Visa, there is - since Oct 31, 2019 - the requirement for health-insurance.  If you have already an internationally valid health-insurance policy, you can request your insurance company to fill-in and sign the official Foreign Insurance Certificate declaring that your policy meets the IO requirements.

If you have trouble getting your insurer to sign that document (it refers to thai legislation, and many insurers are not keen to sign it), you can also present your present policy at the thai embassy where you are applying for the Non Imm OA (long-stay) Visa, and they might accept this.  

 

When you are not able to meet the Non Imm OA application-requirements, there is however an easy alternative (it's not a loophole, but perfectly legal and valid way to stay long-term in Thailand even when being 'uninsurable').

You simply have to enter Thailand VisaExempt (without any Visa) or on a TouristVisa.  You will then be stamped in on arrival for a permission to stay that your entry provides (30 days for VE / 60 days on an SETV).

You then apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa at the Immigration Office of the place where you want to stay long-term in Thailand.  Since you are married to a thai national, you can apply either for reason of retirement or for reason of marriage (the requirements are different, and the financials to be proved when married are way lower).  During the last month of the 90-day permission to stay that Non Imm O Visa grants you, you then have to apply for a 1-year extension of stay.  This has to be done a the same local IO where you applied for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa.  There is no requirement for thai-approved health-insurance when following that road.

 

I did sent you PM a comprehensive roadmap how to do it, with all details/options.

To access your PM-messages click the 'letter' icon next to your Profile, when logged in to the Forum. 

 

[jayceenik]

22 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I agree that the fact that O based retirement extensions do not require health insurance isn't literally a loophole. It's a loaded word that expats would probably be better off not propagating. 

Yes, I agree that loophole is a loaded word and better not used but be sure that the selected Insurance companies are already well aware of that O visa and have approached the relevant authorities for possible action.

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, jayceenik said:

Yes, I agree that loophole is a loaded word and better not used but be sure that the selected Insurance companies are already well aware of that O visa and have approached the relevant authorities for possible action.

I strongly suspect that, in order to be water-tight, the health insurance requirement would need to be specifically extended to ALL non-immigrants over the age of 50 who were eligible for annual extensions, regardless of their reason for applying for one (retirement, marriage, family, etc) and the type of visa which they originally used to enter Thailand (OA, O, etc). As I see things, this could only be achieved through a radical revision of Police Order 327/2557 which was issued in 2014.

 

That said, Police Order 327/2557 did replace one issued in 2008 (777/2551) – so, on the basis that the Immigration Bureau suffer from a 6-year itch as regards fundamental revisions to their Police Orders, we could conceivably see a further amending Police Order being issued (and possibly plugging the unintended insurance “exemption”) as soon as later this year!????

 

And no doubt the plight of non-immigrants who, by virtue of age were ineligible to apply for a TGIA-approved insurance policy, would continue to be studiously ignored by the Immigration Bureau in any revised Police Order.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you that tourists should also be subject to mandatory insurance requirements. In practice, though, I strongly suspect that the chances of this happening would depend on which trade organisation had the greater clout and influence in the corridors of power at the Immigration Bureau – the TGIA representing insurers or the TAT representing the tourism industry.

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by OJAS

[ParkerN]

On 10/27/2019 at 2:32 PM, KhunBENQ said:

What a mess that not even the local immigration bosses seem to know what it exactly means.

 

What a mess? Nah. This is normal for Thailand. Completey pedestrian in all it's awfulness.

 

To err is human. To really foul up you need a computer, but to create a truly dismal and depressing dogs breakfast of even the simplest and most straightforward task, you better send for a Thai 'expert'. That's guaranteed to make you feel like ending it all.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by ParkerN

[elliss]

On 10/27/2019 at 2:43 PM, DaRoadrunner said:

The Phuket immigration chief deserves a medal for this, though more likely he may get posted to an inactive position for defying orders. .... I like this man!

 

     Yep . me thinks he will be keeping Big Joke company ,

         in the back of nowhere ...

 

[Isaanbiker]

A box of free Lhao Kao for him@!!!