Uk visit visa refused twice

[Tom1982]

My fiancée has applied for a Uk visit visa for 2 weeks two times now and both times refused ,I’ll explain a little about us ,  we have been together  2 years, she is not  from the bar scene .I’ve spent a lot of time going and coming from Thailand to see her ,we got engaged in August 2019 and after travelled to turkey and Cyprus together and both have stamps in our passports showing this . My fiancée lives and works in bkk at her family shop . She lives there with her mum dad and little brother . My fiancée the applicant works 7am- 5pm and has done since 2013 . She is paid Weekly and also pays rent towards  the shop/house . She puts a little bit in her bank  every week or so and has 6months bank statements showing this , after paying her insurance , phone and other things  there is not much left but is deposited in her account as we knew we had to do this  for 6 months . But as she has a sponsor we thought this shouldn’t really be a reason for them to refuse it’s only really showing that she does have a job and puts a little bit in the bank when possible . 

We spent months getting all the documents Together  I was reading online speaking with people , literally studied the whole process . We  then finally done  the online application through .gov website . We really did make sure we had everything covered  she  included cover letter , sponsor letter , invitation letter , applicants employer letter , 6 months bank statements from her and the sponsor   including a letter from the bank stamped, passports with previous travel history together , what’s app script for over a year , sponsors house deeds , land mark registry for house , rent agreement for her family house/shop in bkk dating back to 2013.

the first application was refused due to them trying to call her dad/employer , he works night shifts and was sleeps through the day . I understand this is a reason for them to refuse and was gutted because if they spoke to him we would have probably got the visa . We should have been more prepared for the call. 

 

So we applied again literally a few days later using exactly the same documents just amending dates keeping within the minimum 3months  from the prosed  visit and just changing a few things around but nothing major it was basically  the same as the First application. We thought as the first refusal was due to them not speaking to her dad we need to let them no why and make sure we cover this in the new application . we including the refusal  letter and wrote a refusal letter explaining why her dad/employer missed the calls and it was a genuine reason , and we also explained in the new edited employer letter that he was sleeping and if they call again he will make sure a family member has his phone to wake him up .so we applied and paid xtra £260 for a 5 day decision as we are going away together soon and needed the passport.

She  received a refusal  email 4 days later . They did not try to contact her dad/ employer this time , there grounds for refusel was now her income was not enough reason to return and her relationship with the sponsor is not believed genuine , and that the sponsor has not show financial support or prof of his business  . The sponsor is my dad we included 6 moths bank statements And even got a stamped headed letter from the back stating the money is cleared funds in the account , also included in the application was his company certificate and company’s house letter showing he was director of the company .  although We did not include his business accounts statements as we thought he had enough on his personal account to show he can cover costs  . We showed flights that we flew together to Cyprus to meet my dad and family in which the applicant spent 2 weeks with them . They are saying she stated that she put in the application she will only spend £60 on her proper visit that this is not enough . We have already put in the application and documents that the sponsor is paying for absolutely everything. What makes me annoyed is why have they mentioned all this in the second refusal when it’s literally the same as the first . We have spent a lot of money and time and everything we have put in the application is genuine and have proved it . I see and hear so many people getting visas for bar  girls etc and when it is a legitimate application it’s rejected . Any way the question now is what is the best thing to do ? I know now we will have to wait atleast 6-12 months before we apply again . We are planning to get married soon  2020-2021  Is it best to wait till then ? We was planning on starting a business in Thailand or buying some land So I’m guessing I’f we had all the legal documents showing this for the next application this will cover the reason for refusal on that part ? 
 

I have attached a copy of both refusal letters let me know your thoughts and any advise on what to do now . Thanks 

[Elad]

I think there's some confusion as to who's the sponsor here. Did you state on the application that your dad was the sponsor?

[rasg]

The biggest mistake was supplying bank statements at all imho. My girlfriend simply said that she got paid in cash, sent some home and paid her rent and after that there was enough for her to live on. (I did the whole application for her).

The genie is out of the bottle now and it looks really difficult to recover from this.

 

If you marry and go for settlement it is a simpler process imho and she won't need any reason to return to Thailand. After a couple of visit visas we simply went for a settlement visa (fiancée) married in the UK and she's never had to go back to Thailand. More expensive but that's what we did. Cheaper getting married in Thailand and it saves one of the visas.

 

There is no requirement to supply six months of statements for either you as a sponsor or for her. You simply need to show that you have sufficient funds to pay for the trip. 

 

[Tom1982]

12 hours ago, Elad said:

I think there's some confusion as to who's the sponsor here. Did you state on the application that your dad was the sponsor?

Yes it was very clear on the application and documents that my dad is the sponsor . 

[AlexRich]

It all looks pretty draconian. I could understand it if the lady was visiting the UK on her own as a tourist, but with an engagement and a sponsor with whom she will be staying you would think this would be straightforward. 

 

Did they know that she is engaged to be married to a UK citizen, the son of the sponsor?

[Elad]

3 hours ago, Tom1982 said:

Yes it was very clear on the application and documents that my dad is the sponsor . 

On the refusal notice is says that you provided a copy of the sponsor's passport. was that yours or your fathers passport? 

[Tom1982]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

It all looks pretty draconian. I could understand it if the lady was visiting the UK on her own as a tourist, but with an engagement and a sponsor with whom she will be staying you would think this would be straightforward. 

 

Did they know that she is engaged to be married to a UK citizen, the son of the sponsor?

Yes 100% it was clear in the application and documents . 

[Tom1982]

2 hours ago, Elad said:

On the refusal notice is says that you provided a copy of the sponsor's passport. was that yours or your fathers passport? 

We supplied my dads and mine 

[Elad]

Also, the refusal says "on your application form you state that you wish to visit your sponsor" and " I also note that I am unable to verify your relationship with your sponsor".

 

I think you need to reapply with yourself being the sponsor as you are in a relationship with her. You can still use your dads accommodation for the visit, but the financial part must come from you, so just make sure you show them your own bank statements with enough funds to maintain her for the visit.

 

I think its worth another shot for the sake of 100 quid or so. Don't bother paying for the fast track because visit visas are usually processed in about two weeks or so. 

[Traubert]

They think along the lines of if everything goes tits up and she's left alone in the UK she wouldn't have enough money to support herself and with only sixty quid in her pocket, it's true.

 

My brother in law wanted to visit his wife of thirty years in the UK. He was Chief Economist of PICC Insurance and part of his retirement settlement was shares which he cashed in, making him a dollar millionaire. They turned him down twice, stated their prejudice against any future applications because he had never applied before. They considered him a flight risk.

 

He could buy a small estate to flee to if he wanted. The British are just c****.

[kingofthemountain]

For the OP

sorry if i come with a stupid question but why do you want

you and your fiancee spend a lot of money (And obviously you and her do not have too much)

for her to come 2 weeks in England in the winter? Are you sure she is going to love the rain and the cold?

Why you don't come to see her in Thailand.it should be more convenient.

You could also as you have did already go as tourists in another country nearby

or with a more relax visa policy.

Just asking of course.

The life is already often very complicated, why try to do it less easy?

[kingofthemountain]

On 12/1/2019 at 2:50 AM, Tom1982 said:

My fiancée lives and works in bkk at her family shop . She lives there with her mum dad and little brother . My fiancée the applicant works 7am- 5pm and has done since 2013 . She is paid Weekly and also pays rent towards  the shop/house .

I am sorry but something is wrong here

she works 10 hours\day at the family shop since 6 years for 7200 bahts\month?

(Based on the statement in the denial letter. it's her appointment as shop assistant)

And she pays also the rent for the shop\house from this 7200 bahts?

Since when a shop assistant pay the rent for the shop on her own salary?

Well, time to find a real job and stop this non sense slavery.

Also have you think to your future?

I mean you can not stay you in England and her in Bankgok

it's not a viable relationship on the long term.

Then what is the project? Can you move and stay in Thailand with her?

Or she would want to move and stay in UK with you?

The question has probably came in mind of the one in charge to deliver the visa

and it's probably one of the reason her visa has been refused, they think she wants to stay in UK. 

And you what do you want exactly? You need to answer to this question soon or later..

[rasg]

What did you use as evidence that you are a couple? Passport stamps to Cyprus and Turkey along with flight and hotel bookings?

 

It seems that using your dad as another sponsor may have confused the issue. Do you enough cash in the bank to pay for your girlfriend's trip? If you do I would suggest that you simply use your dad to provide a confirmation letter for her accommodation only. I remember for my girlfriend's trip I put down that she had no cash but in my sponsor letter explained that I would provide her with sufficient cash and a ticket to get to the UK etc.

 

I would really like to see the sponsor letter you supplied to see how clear it was.

[theoldgit]

1 hour ago, rasg said:

What did you use as evidence that you are a couple? Passport stamps to Cyprus and Turkey along with flight and hotel bookings?

 

It seems that using your dad as another sponsor may have confused the issue. Do you enough cash in the bank to pay for your girlfriend's trip? If you do I would suggest that you simply use your dad to provide a confirmation letter for her accommodation only. I remember for my girlfriend's trip I put down that she had no cash but in my sponsor letter explained that I would provide her with sufficient cash and a ticket to get to the UK etc.

 

I would really like to see the sponsor letter you supplied to see how clear it was.

Advice was saught and offerred in a previous thread, after removing some, what I would call, waffle, I thought the suggested eventual covering letters were pretty clear.

 

Tom described their relationship and his visit history, the details of the planned trip, including the stop off in Cyprus. 

 

Tom drafted a letter outlining the trip and and one from dad which I thought was pretty clear, contents of the letter included "I confirm that I have invited xxx to visit our family home from 10 January 2020 until her return home to Thailand on 24 January", "I have offered to cover her travel and incidental expenses for her proposed trip and have submitted proof of my ability to do so", dad also mentioned how he had previous met her in Cyprus.

 

Providing the covering letters were in possessesion of the decision maker, and read, it was pretty clear, at least to me, that the lass was going to stay with Toms parents, Tom had met her previously in Cyprus and Thailand, and dad was also going to cover both her travel and incidental expenses.

 

There was also a letter available from her father/employer, who confirmed that she worked at his shop and had been given leave for her proposed trip, though there might have been some dscrepancy with her father apparently working nights and what might have been the shops opening hours.

 

I was of the opinion that it wasn't a bad application, I thought she'd covered their relationship history, her employment being a reason to return, with the affordability being covered by Toms dad offering to cover the travel and incidental expenses. It seemed to me that the ECO expecting to evidence of her relationship with her future father in law, who was proving accomodation and financial support, was pretty bizarre.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1125931-help-with-cover-letter-standard-visit-visa-uk/#comments

 

[BLACKJACK2]

I'm thinking of applying in a year's time but when I see applications like this getting denied I don't know if it's worth the hassle. He seems to have everything covered, I can't provide that much evidence, though I am married. Best of luck if you try again.

[theoldgit]

Tom, I've sent you some further comments by PM.

[rumbo1]

I had a similar problem, applied online our selves 1st time and got refused. 

2nd time used an agent with exact same papers and got the visa. 

My girlfriend stayed 4 months in the UK with me while I was working and then we both returned back here together. 

About 18 months later I returned to the UK for a 5 month work contract and planned for my girlfriend to join me in the spring time and near the end of the contract for a short holiday before returning back here. 

Used all the same paperwork as before plus more photographs of us together in UK, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand, photocopies of her passport stamps etc. 

REFUSED again, not enough proof of relationship! 

Use a good agancy and pay the extra 25000 or so extra and you should get the visa 

 

[Pedrogaz]

Having your father sponsor was a mistake. You should have sponsored your partner....put her down as zero income and supplied proof that you can pay for the trip in its entirety. I do this and have applied on behalf of friends....never had a refusal yet. It's pretty straightforward. Is there some reason you made your father the sponsor instead of yourself?

I think it makes the assessing officer think that you can't  afford to sponsor her yourself...in which case why would he allow it?

[Ginkas]

I think the two key phrases in the refusal letter put the final kybosh on the application.

"This office tried to contact your employer using the details you provided …..  However we were not able to reach your employer to confirm your employment."

What details did she provide and why were they not able to contact the employer? 

 

[theoldgit]

Nonsense post and measured response removed.

 

Further nonsense post with equally unhelful response removed.

[ronaldo0]

26 minutes ago, rumbo1 said:

I had a similar problem, applied online our selves 1st time and got refused. 

2nd time used an agent with exact same papers and got the visa. 

My girlfriend stayed 4 months in the UK with me while I was working and then we both returned back here together. 

About 18 months later I returned to the UK for a 5 month work contract and planned for my girlfriend to join me in the spring time and near the end of the contract for a short holiday before returning back here. 

Used all the same paperwork as before plus more photographs of us together in UK, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand, photocopies of her passport stamps etc. 

REFUSED again, not enough proof of relationship! 

Use a good agancy and pay the extra 25000 or so extra and you should get the visa 

 

I have been refused twice. First time my wife and I had been married for around 2 years and I owned several houses here and one in uk and money in banks in both countries . Wife had land , car ,bike in her name here all paid and over a million bht in bank for over a year. We sent in everything and they refused as we could only get 3 months bank statements due to short time before we were due to submit it all in bkk. They denied her as they said they wanted 6 months statements .

Second time submitted everything the same and letters from my parents confirming we were staying with them and passport copies from them .

They sent refused letter stating they didn’t believe we were married despite us being married for 7 years at this point and proof submitted by marriage cert and few pics , didn’t think my wife had reason to return despite owning car , bike , property in her name , didn’t think she had funds to get back to Thailand despite having over a million bht in bank for over a year again . Since then not even entertained the thought of going !

But my friend got married in issan , used an agent in bkk and wife had nothing , no money , no car , relationship of 6 months and got visa no problem. Wife’s friend also had no job nothing , went to visit a guy she casually knew in uk who was twice her age , she used same visa agent my mate did and no problem she got visa.

Think was 20-25000 bht the agent charged but guaranteed visa .

[theoldgit]

6 minutes ago, Ginkas said:

I think the two key phrases in the refusal letter put the final kybosh on the application.

"This office tried to contact your employer using the details you provided …..  However we were not able to reach your employer to confirm your employment."

What details did she provide and why were they not able to contact the employer? 

The op explained the reasoning for this in an earlier post, the applicants employer was sleeping after a night shift.

[Bangkok Basha]

As a former visa officer, I can only say that this application would have had a snowball's chance in hell at the U.S., UK, or Canadian embassies where I used to work (not Thailand). The grounds for denial are based on whether the applicant has more reason to return to their home country than to stay illegally in the country for which they are applying. Someone who earns $200/month as a shop assistant clearly has better prospects in the UK than here. In the case of the U.S., a "Sponsorship letter" actually weakens the case, as it shows the applicant has a source of support that would enable them to easily stay. The reasons that are provided for denial are pro-forma, and she could apply a dozen times and the result would be the same. It won't matter how perfect the paperwork is, it's a done deal.

[thonglorjimmy]

26 minutes ago, Bangkok Basha said:

As a former visa officer, I can only say that this application would have had a snowball's chance in hell at the U.S., UK, or Canadian embassies where I used to work (not Thailand). The grounds for denial are based on whether the applicant has more reason to return to their home country than to stay illegally in the country for which they are applying. Someone who earns $200/month as a shop assistant clearly has better prospects in the UK than here. In the case of the U.S., a "Sponsorship letter" actually weakens the case, as it shows the applicant has a source of support that would enable them to easily stay. The reasons that are provided for denial are pro-forma, and she could apply a dozen times and the result would be the same. It won't matter how perfect the paperwork is, it's a done deal.

You worked as a Entry Clearance Officer/Consular Officer/Visa Officer at all three Visa Sections?

Are the visa rules, document requirements identical, is the burden of proof the same at all three?

You are aware that UK Immigration have a standard Sponsorship Undertaking form for use in some cases, would that weaken the case?

Why would an applicant working in a family business earning $200 a month have better prospects in the UK where she wouldn't be allowed to work legally, wouldn't have access to the National Health Service and would constantly be looking over her shoulder fearing Immigration Enforcement, by the way she's paid in Baht not Dollars

   

[theoldgit]

34 minutes ago, Bangkok Basha said:

The grounds for denial are based on whether the applicant has more reason to return to their home country than to stay illegally in the country for which they are applying. 

Entry Clearance Officers processing applications for the UKVI use the balance of probabilites when assessing whether they believe an applicant would return to their own country at the conclusion of their visit, or at least leave the UK, I believe that's a lower burdon of proof than that required by US Consular Officials, who, I anderstand, are required to assume that applicants wouldn't leave and it's the applicant who must prove otherwise, but you'd know that.

[Bastos60]

On 12/1/2019 at 2:06 AM, rasg said:

There is no requirement to supply six months of statements for either you as a sponsor or for her. You simply need to show that you have sufficient funds to pay for the trip. 

 

I read the refusal letter carefully twice and it is pretty clear that the refusal has to do with his economic situation being not able to provide for the girl and that is the only
reason they give. 
Even if he would go for a marriage visa, it would be refused for him as he is can not provide sufficient evidence of his economic independence and ability to financially support
his girl, it is all there in the letter.  Bank statements don't help unless they are accompanied by pay slips. You don't even need bank statements, just pay slips. 

 

Having his dad being the sponsor doesn't help one bit. It just emphasizes his inability to support her in the UK while she is on visit. They really don't care if a girl has any financial means in this situation. It would help if he could show monthly deposits through a bank or western union to her. 

[Bastos60]

 

49 minutes ago, Bangkok Basha said:

As a former visa officer, I can only say that this application would have had a snowball's chance in hell at the U.S., UK, or Canadian embassies where I used to work (not Thailand). The grounds for denial are based on whether the applicant has more reason to return to their home country than to stay illegally in the country for which they are applying. Someone who earns $200/month as a shop assistant clearly has better prospects in the UK than here. In the case of the U.S., a "Sponsorship letter" actually weakens the case, as it shows the applicant has a source of support that would enable them to easily stay. The reasons that are provided for denial are pro-forma, and she could apply a dozen times and the result would be the same. It won't matter how perfect the paperwork is, it's a done deal.

 

actually, you are not completely right. 

1) They look what the intentions are for the visit.  If you can prove your relationship with that person, financial support over the past year it shouldn't be a problem at all except 
   the requirements you have to meet to be able to sponsor the visit. 
   If it was just as straightforward as you claim, no girl would ever be granted a visa for a short holiday with her foreign boyfriend.

 

2) You are right when you consider the girl is applying for a visa herself. Or there is no real evidence of a long term relationship with the sponsor. 

 

When you have someone sponsor the trip, that sponsor is held reliable for anything that happens. if the girl is deported for overstaying her visa the costs are recuperated from the sponsor. Hospital bils, the sponsor is held responsible. Accommodation is the sponsors problem. 

[bwpage3]

Why is it that you are talking about getting married, starting a business and buying land etc. when you cannot personally financially sponsor your GF?

 

Looks pretty dodgy if you, as the fiance, cannot sponsor her on your own and have to use your father?

 

You make no mention of you working or having an income or any financial means of your own?

 

I suspect for this reason you will keep getting denied in the future.

 

Getting married does not lesson the financial requirements to bring her to the UK.

 

I think the rejection is quite clear and it hinges 100% on the fact you have not provided the financial proof of yourself or the sponsor.

 

Also stating you will ONLY spend 2,332 baht for 14 days in the UK is just asking for trouble.

 

All your problems hinge on finances.

 

I suspect they are onto the fact that you probably don't have any money of your own, neither does she, and they suspect once in the UK she would stay over and try to work.

 

You have gone through a lot of paperwork exercises when the simple fact is to prove the financial support of either you and your sponsor.

 

I would give marriage a serious second thought if you cannot afford to sponsor her yourself.

 

Relationships will limited finances rarely make it.

 

 

 

 

[Bastos60]

1 hour ago, ronaldo0 said:

I have been refused twice. First time my wife and I had been married for around 2 years and I owned several houses here and one in uk and money in banks in both countries . Wife had land , car ,bike in her name here all paid and over a million bht in bank for over a year. We sent in everything and they refused as we could only get 3 months bank statements due to short time before we were due to submit it all in bkk. They denied her as they said they wanted 6 months statements .

Second time submitted everything the same and letters from my parents confirming we were staying with them and passport copies from them .

They sent refused letter stating they didn’t believe we were married despite us being married for 7 years at this point and proof submitted by marriage cert and few pics , didn’t think my wife had reason to return despite owning car , bike , property in her name , didn’t think she had funds to get back to Thailand despite having over a million bht in bank for over a year again . Since then not even entertained the thought of going !

But my friend got married in issan , used an agent in bkk and wife had nothing , no money , no car , relationship of 6 months and got visa no problem. Wife’s friend also had no job nothing , went to visit a guy she casually knew in uk who was twice her age , she used same visa agent my mate did and no problem she got visa.

Think was 20-25000 bht the agent charged but guaranteed visa .

I would like the name of that agent.

[bwpage3]

In Isaan, workers, including my brother in law, are going to Sweden every year to pick berries.

 

There is someone in Isaan connected to getting VISA's for all these workers and I suspect probably has an avenue with an agent how to do this.

We have been told by many that they can get a VISA in the 20 to 30,000 baht range, even to the US.