Bailing Out / Jumpin Ship

[jonwilly]

When I did my first retirement visa I had to show that I had B800K in the bank on the morning of the application. First stop was bank obtain letter then down to immigration and do the visa. If I had wanted I could then have returned to bank and had my money out. None of this now, self inflicted wound imposed by Frangs who  wanted to cheat the system.

Immigration learned that some folks had no money and where borrowing, probably having some police officer reading Thai Visa, so slowly over a period of years the system tightened up to first 3 months before and the now 2 months before and 3 months after and B400K for rest of year.

Like to think that all the folk who caused our present situation are now gone for if still here they will think up a new scam and those of who who remain will have some new regulation inflicted on us.

 

john

[yogi100]

2 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

This was specifically directed at someone who posted stating that 250k USD was pretty much untouchable *wealth*.

 

As a roundabout figure which obviously you don't have given the comments it's imo the bottom end of what life costs. Granted I get by on about 35k including domestic holidays. My wife pays her part outside main expenses.

 

As for being able to calculate it all. Not much of an international expatriate if you can't calculate half dozen currencies roughly in your head. I mean I'm just a stoopid murkan and can do nearly ten.

I've not said I'm an expatriate let alone in international one nor am I as mathematically gifted as you obviously are.

 

It's just that if some tells me how much something is in baht I immediately know how much it is in GBPs.

 

By the same token if I quote the price of something in GBP I also quote it in baht for the convenience and out of consideration for those who are unfamiliar with the value of the Pound Sterling.

 

It's not a lot of effort to make really if you are addressing an international audience.

[DannyCarlton]

23 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

I mean I'm just a stoopid murkan and can do nearly ten.

But can you hop on one leg and whistle "Dixie" at the same time?

[Number 6]

6 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

It's not a lot of effort to make really if you are addressing an international audience.

But I wasn't. I was replying to a comment in which the poster mentioned USD. Specially, 250k USD.

 

You missed that and felt a need to chide me for it regardless.

[BazzaJames]

I'm  another one selling up and getting ready to bail out. If 2019 is any indication of where this is headed then really the only sensible thing to do. First came to Thailand in 86 have lived here of and on since. The good old days, they certainly where....

[BazzaJames]

I'm  another one selling up and getting ready to bail out. If 2019 is any indication of where this is headed then really the only sensible thing to do. First came to Thailand in 86 have lived here of and on since. The good old days, they certainly where....

[Deerculler]

All most of us wanted was quiet place to retire obey the laws of the country where we are and no stress or hassles for the the short time we have left.

But it seems that is not to be.

I am scratching my head as to what to do. Lol. 

 

[mokwit]

If not now when? When they change the deal without grandfathering a few weeks ahead of your annual renewal? Better to leave under controlled conditions.

 

It is a valid point that they are merely acting to prevent abuses,visas being used not as intended, or a cost accruing to the Thai state, but frankly I remain unconvinced it will stop at that.

Edited December 22, 2019 by mokwit

[yogi100]

3 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

But I wasn't. I was replying to a comment in which the poster mentioned USD. Specially, 250k USD.

 

You missed that and felt a need to chide me for it regardless.

I was not chiding you I was simply curious as to what you had to say on the matter. However if you want to just use USDs when discussing financial matters on an international form that is based in Thailand feel free to do so.

 

Others are free to quote prices etc in Oz$s, GGPs. NZ $s, Canadian $s and Euros etc but for the sake of convenience they generally tend to use TBs which are familiar to everyone and therefore easier and quicker to convert to their own native currency.

 

It just makes things easier all round. Out of interest what is $550K in Thai Baht?

[deej]

22 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

None of this now, self inflicted wound imposed by Frangs who  wanted to cheat the system.

 

Like to think that all the folk who caused our present situation are now gone for if still here they will think up a new scam and those of who who remain will have some new regulation inflicted on us.

 

 

Beg to disagree

Those particular Expats only ultilised an ambiguilty in the law set of excess

Best of luck to them

[simon43]

VISA/Extension is just too much effort in Thailand.

I can stay in Cambodia for $300/year or Philippines on continuous extensions for 3 years, while having to show no finances/savings/insurance, or queue in any immigration offices at all, or anyone care where I am (or even if I'm illegally working).

 

I left Thailand in August, now very happily settled in Luang Prabang, north Laos (see the photo and arrow to the house I rent).  One year, multiple-entry business visa and work permit for my online teaching costs me about $600 a year.  No savings required, no 90 day reports, no TM30, no police or immigration visits, no medical insurance required, (but sensibly I have a $1M+ expat policy anyway).

 

I wasn't forced out of Thailand by lack of money.  I had a 5-year Elite visa and a 120,000 THB+ monthly income from my online teaching.  I moved because of the uncertainly about what stupid rule the Thai authorities would implement next to inconvenience me. ????

 

[Thaidream]

14 minutes ago, Chivas said:

Theres a myriad of reasons for the exodus of visitors and expats not least of all tougher visa regulations and of course the strength of the Baht against the Benchmark USD but also at the same time Western currencies weakness against that same USD on the other side of the currency pairings.

 

The love in with Thailand is close to over. Colleague of mine a 30 year plus veteran of Pattaya says simply hes never seen it so quiet at Christmas last night. The Thais have cooked the Golden Goose but you need to turn the clock back further to see the start of the decline as the internet took off and the Genie was firmly out of the bottle....

There is no doubt that expats are leaving in droves and tourists are avoiding Thailand.

 

I first came to Thailand in 1971 and was married to my Thai wife  in 1975 in Bangkok. Our honeymon was in Pattaya- abeautiful pristine beach with only 1 Western hotel and  a perfect resort atmosphere.  No nightime entertainment as today and no  scams.

 

Ever since Thailand started a massive tourist industry- the levels of degradation of the country have become evident. Massive overbuilding without the proper supporting  infrastructure has turned places like Pattaya; Ko Samui; Phuket and  Chiang Mai into places that arefast becoming uninhabiable.

 

The last 5 years is what has really killed  the Goose.   The change in immigration requirements forcing  retired people to keep large amounts tied up in Thai Banks instread of in their own countries; then the insurance requirements;  reports of surly Immigration Officers throwing passports back at people; telling them they are not welcome in Thailand have spread through social media.

 

In the past, most expats put up with the double pricing; the various scams; pollution; high taxes on imported goods; filthy beach water and rising prices due to currency shifts.

 

When one throws in the Immigration issues with the poor living conditions and cost- the totality of it all is what is telling expats and tourists- that Thailand is not a good place to retire or visit.  There is plenty of choice with a warmer welcome.

 

However, the average Thai person is still welcoming; still has a genuine smile and knows nothing of the Governmental nonsense directed at foreigners.  Most are just trying to live day by day. 

 

However, even the average Thai knows something is wrong in their society . They breathe the same air we do; they are subject to the same intrusive Government; declining levels of education and much more. This will eventually come to a head .

 

Thailand is nowhere near what it was when I first came in 1971.  The economic results of so called progress has mostly gone to the elites and the wealthy who have done little  for their own citizens and virtually nothing for long stayers.

 

There are literally tens of thousands of Thai people  being supported  through  expats residing in Thailand and  foreigners married to Thai citizens in which step children get educated;  mom and dad  get support to keep them whole and other assorted relatives  benefit.  I don't expect a thank you but I also don't expect a sneer  when I enter Thailand from the IO.

 

As someone who has been married to a Thai citizen for over 40 years- I am still regarded as a temporary visitor to Thailand' I cannot purchase land; I cannot  get the equivalent of what my wife has in the US with automatic perrmanent residency after 2 years of marriage.  I cannot  pay into the Thai medical system .  There is absolutely no reciprocity.

 

To be quite frank; if I did not have significant holdings in Thailand and a daughter in University ; I would consider leaving- a thought that has never entered my mind  until the last few years. 

 

Thailand is now facing  the fact that it is not a prime country for retirement and in the process of losing it's attraction as a tourist paradise.  Even the Chinese have found greener pastures and the  foreign expat community mwill continue to decline unless something positive  happens showing the community that Thailand really wants them.

 

Since it is the end of the year- I am hopeful something positive will happen in 2020.

 

[Number 6]

4 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I left Thailand in August, now very happily settled in Luang Prabang, north Laos (see the photo and arrow to the house I rent).  One year, multiple-entry business visa and work permit for my online teaching costs me about $600 a year.  No savings required, no 90 day reports, no TM30, no police or immigration visits, no medical insurance required, (but sensibly I have a $1M+ expat policy anyway).

 

I wasn't forced out of Thailand by lack of money.  I had a 5-year Elite visa and a 120,000 THB+ monthly income from my online teaching.  I moved because of the uncertainly about what stupid rule the Thai authorities would implement next to inconvenience me. ????

 

 

 

I totally get it about the stupid, arbitrary rules. I'm quite fed up myself. If I were not married with wife decent job as myself we'd be gone. I've always enjoyed Lao and lived decades prior in Cambodia. I've lived in Indonesia.

 

I think there are four groups

 

Men that are old, married and buried. Not going anywhere.

 

Guys that are fully invested in Thailand. Home, family, land, etc

 

New arrivals. The gloss has not come off. They've no comparison to old days. Just left jobs and accustomed to paperwork and trivial bs.

 

The chancers. Typical sex/affection addicts that find the siren's song of Thai women to easy and appealing to go elsewhere. Even other SEA countries pose challenges. Never so lucky with the ladies but in Thailand they're king of the jungle. GFE.

 

 

[Number 6]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There is no doubt that expats are leaving in droves and tourists are avoiding Thailand.

 

I first came to Thailand in 1971 and was married to my Thai wife  in 1975 in Bangkok. Our honeymon was in Pattaya- abeautiful pristine beach with only 1 Western hotel and  a perfect resort atmosphere.  No nightime entertainment as today and no  scams.

 

Ever since Thailand started a massive tourist industry- the levels of degradation of the country have become evident. Massive overbuilding without the proper supporting  infrastructure has turned places like Pattaya; Ko Samui; Phuket and  Chiang Mai into places that arefast becoming uninhabiable.

 

The last 5 years is what has really killed  the Goose.   The change in immigration requirements forcing  retired people to keep large amounts tied up in Thai Banks instread of in their own countries; then the insurance requirements;  reports of surly Immigration Officers throwing passports back at people; telling them they are not welcome in Thailand have spread through social media.

 

In the past, most expats put up with the double pricing; the various scams; pollution; high taxes on imported goods; filthy beach water and rising prices due to currency shifts.

 

When one throws in the Immigration issues with the poor living conditions and cost- the totality of it all is what is telling expats and tourists- that Thailand is not a good place to retire or visit.  There is plenty of choice with a warmer welcome.

 

However, the average Thai person is still welcoming; still has a genuine smile and knows nothing of the Governmental nonsense directed at foreigners.  Most are just trying to live day by day. 

 

However, even the average Thai knows something is wrong in their society . They breathe the same air we do; they are subject to the same intrusive Government; declining levels of education and much more. This will eventually come to a head .

 

Thailand is nowhere near what it was when I first came in 1971.  The economic results of so called progress has mostly gone to the elites and the wealthy who have done little  for their own citizens and virtually nothing for long stayers.

 

There are literally tens of thousands of Thai people  being supported  through  expats residing in Thailand and  foreigners married to Thai citizens in which step children get educated;  mom and dad  get support to keep them whole and other assorted relatives  benefit.  I don't expect a thank you but I also don't expect a sneer  when I enter Thailand from the IO.

 

As someone who has been married to a Thai citizen for over 40 years- I am still regarded as a temporary visitor to Thailand' I cannot purchase land; I cannot  get the equivalent of what my wife has in the US with automatic perrmanent residency after 2 years of marriage.  I cannot  pay into the Thai medical system .  There is absolutely no reciprocity.

 

To be quite frank; if I did not have significant holdings in Thailand and a daughter in University ; I would consider leaving- a thought that has never entered my mind  until the last few years. 

 

Thailand is now facing  the fact that it is not a prime country for retirement and in the process of losing it's attraction as a tourist paradise.  Even the Chinese have found greener pastures and the  foreign expat community mwill continue to decline unless something positive  happens showing the community that Thailand really wants them.

 

Since it is the end of the year- I am hopeful something positive will happen in 2020.

 

Post of the month

 

+4

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Sure, but you can thank the fake it till you make it crowd for that. The same ones who faked their income affidavit. The same ones with dodgy agents.

Everyone had lent money they don't really had just to get a visa, they got tired of it and now you actually have to keep it there. Or well you don't if your embassy still offers the income letter, like most do. But those embassy also checked the income stuff and not just signed a random statement.

 

 

 

Now everyone honest is suffering, like always, but it's not a one sided thing, the expat community exploited it till they had to do it.

 

 

Just a guest ion. Only the 3, US, England and Australia citizens were “faking” income for those affidavit letter?All other countries have no citizens falsifying?  Hmm, possibly but I find it difficult to believe that only these 3 countries had dishonest citizens. I had the income as I affirmed to in the US affidavit. And I support the embassies stating that they could not, in all honesty, guaranteeing the affidavit validity. Thailand has the sovereign right to make its own regulations but there is an affect and I am free to “find a way around the regulation” or to spend my retirement funds elsewhere.

Edited December 22, 2019 by wwest5829

[Lacessit]

In my condo, it does seem to be a different mix of younger farangs, and they appear to be staying shorter term, presumably on tourist visas.

Chiang Mai is virtually gridlocked when the schools open and close. The only practical way to travel then is on a scooter.

Lots of restaurants closing, or cutting out part of their offering to save on overheads. I understand one of the leading visa agents here is 30% down on customers.

It's probably a combination of things, such as stricter financial requirements and the strong baht. One thing for sure, mandatory health insurance would kill Thailand stone dead for me.

What I don't understand is the continuing construction in CM of apartments, condos and gated communities, because I have no idea who is going to occupy them. Landlords in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai have a distinct dearth of tenants - and this is high season.

 

[ThomasThBKK]

13 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Just a guest ion. Only the 3, US, England and Australia citizens were “faking” income for those affidavit letter?All other countries have no citizens falsifying?  Hmm, possibly but I find it difficult to believe that only these 3 countries had dishonest citizens. I had the income as I affirmed to in the US affidavit. And I support the embassies stating that they could not, in all honesty, guaranteeing the affidavit validity. Thailand has the sovereign right to make its own regulations but there is an affect and I am free to “find a way around the regulation” or to spend my retirement funds elsewhere.

 

No you couldn't just make <deleted> up in the german embassy, they check your german state pension like everyone else. How hard can it be for a government to check their own pensioners, right, it isn't. They just don't want to.

 

They also never guarenteed for any private pension, because obviously they can't check them.

If you want to tell me your own government can't check their citizens GOVERNMENT pensions then i call bs.

Edited December 22, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Captain 776]

LOLOL Why oh why......does the proverb “The grass is always greener on the other side” come to mind?

NOT~!!
 

Leaving for where?

The ever present dangers in Phils?

or

Perhaps the Wild West of Cambodia........where you can be shot in Phnom Phen in broad daylight with 50 witnesses and no ne saw anything?

please enlighten me.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Captain 776

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I have been here on retirement visa extension since 2005.  Prior to the cessation of proof of income from the US consulate, I paid $50.00 USD for said letter.  Yes, during the rest of the time until this year, that is exactly what I did.  Now using the monthly income method, I don't have to pay that $50.00USD.  I used the yearly income letter from the US govt stating what my retirement income is each year, plus they have a pie chart showing the monthly amounts forwarded to my bank in the US.  Also added to a little frustration was the enactment of a new US Justice Dept law concerning intl bank information sharing on US overseas ex-pats attempting to thwart money laundering or escaping US income taxes each year. Many nations' (total of 54 I think including US and Thailand) banks are cancelling accts of expats without a permanent US address.  I however thru this forum learned of a bank which would give me an account which I then transfer funds to Bangkok Bank so that is over and done with.  This is now $10.00 USD cheaper than my old bank (BOA).  When I did my extension this year (MAY 2019) it therefore cost my a lot less than before the changes last Dec.  In addition, previously I had to get to IMM at zero dark thirty and wait several hours before getting the extension signed etc.  This year a total of 30 mins (chiangmai) from queue ticket until finished and passport signed until next May/June timeframe.  I understand some people though have had many problems with the changes.  Some due to strength of baht, some with some with OA needing ins, some just don't have the funds.  I think that by following the rules since I began that makes it seem fairly simple and better than before to me.  To those though that can't abide by the rules I wish you luck in the future whatever you do or whereever you go!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all on Thaivisaforum!

 

Thanks. And the same to you. Since retiring to Thailand as my only residence in retirement in 2011, the rules have been changed since I submitted my application to the Royal Thai a Embassy in Chicago. I still have the required 65K per month income as I had affirmed annually, like you. The ending by the US, England and Australia has had n effect on my showing I have the required income. However, the newly instituted requirement for medical insurance will mean I can no longer hold my Non IMM O-A Visa. I’ll not make the long explanation here but this has made it necessary for me (currently) to have to change my Visa next June if I am to be allowed to stay in Thailand in retirement

[wwest5829]

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Sorry, but you're not up on all the details of the insurance scheme administration...

 

The foreign insurance certificates -- IF the person can get one issued by their foreign insurers, which many are refusing to issue -- is going to be accepted by the Thai Embassies and Consulates upon initial O-A visa application.

 

However, it's entirely unclear of whether those same foreign insurance certificates will be accepted by Thai Immigration when people try to make use of the second year of their O-A visa via entry at land or air entry points...

 

And, it seems pretty clear that such foreign certificates are NOT going to be accepted by Thai Immigration when former O-A visa holders from any past years try to go and apply for extensions of stay based on retirement. Because the retirement extension amendment recently adopted only refers to insurance coverage by Thai insurers participating in the Longstay program.

 

I can confirm being told by a retired Doctor in Chiang Mai with a 39 million Pound policy that they were denied at Chiang Mai Immigration as the document would not be accepted and only the Thai companies would be accepted.

[CM Dad]

This past week I had dinner with two friends, both of whom are long-term retirees.  They are both from Norway and have more than enough financially to be able to stay and live here comfortably without worrying about financial issues.  They both informed me that they are putting their houses on the market, not condos, houses, and leaving by March, even if their respective homes do not sell by then.  They gave three reasons:  Poor air quality, the baht to kroner exchange rate (They feel the baht is tremendously overvalued making them feel cheated), and the feeling they have that they are no longer welcomed by the present Thai government.  They each own two cars and provide support to an extended group of Thais both directly and indirectly although neither is married.  I would guess that they each spend at least 1.5 to 2 million baht a year here.  They said they would likely visit Thailand occasionally, but plan to base themselves elsewhere.  Although I can certainly concur with their reasons for leaving, my situation is much different as I have a Thai wife and two Thai children.  If my children were both grown and on their own (the youngest is still in secondary school and the eldest at university), I would try and convince my wife to relocate and then just visit as well.  I came here more than 30 years ago.  I worked legally and paid Thai taxes for most of those years.  Having a Thai spouse and family should mean something here, but, unfortunately, it does not.  My wife would be given residency in my country simply because she is my wife, yet here I am, and always will be, an alien.  I love Thailand and still have hope that someday the government might be more accepting of men like myself.  Until that time, I will continue to jump through the hoops and do what is needed to stay in my chosen country with my family.

[wwest5829]

23 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

No you couldn't just make <deleted> up in the german embassy, they check your german state pension like everyone else. How hard can it be for a government to check their own pensioners, right, it isn't. They just don't want to.

 

They also never guarenteed for any private pension, because obviously they can't check them.

If you want to tell me your own government can't check their citizens GOVERNMENT pensions then i call bs.

I have US Social Security at $1293 USD per month. So, half my funds are from my own savings. No, the US government cannot demand, under privacy rights to investigate and confirm my income and I would note the US retirement funds come from hundreds of sources. OK, so that is the US and Germany(assuming you are German and can speak to the German system which provides the minimum 65K baht income per month) we have dealt with. Now for the hundreds of other countries ...

[NoshowJones]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:52 PM, FritsSikkink said:

I think they didn't have the means to get a proper visa for many years and now that there are stricter controls, they can't afford to live here anymore.

I don't believe that any expats who have lived here for a few years is leaving because they can't afford it.

If they are having problems buying booze, they can get it cheap in 7-11s.

 

They don't even need a bank account, there are plenty of agents to deal with their immigration needs.

[Bill97]

10 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

...a 39 million Pound policy 

 

If I were an immigration officer I would question that.

 

 

 

 

 

[wwest5829]

7 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

 

If I were an immigration officer I would question that.

 

 

 

 

 

Thought I had seen the pound symbol, but perhaps it was baht. Ha! In either case, in far excess than the in patient, out patient required limits. It is an AXA policy.

[saengd]

1 hour ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I left Thailand in August, now very happily settled in Luang Prabang, north Laos (see the photo and arrow to the house I rent).  One year, multiple-entry business visa and work permit for my online teaching costs me about $600 a year.  No savings required, no 90 day reports, no TM30, no police or immigration visits, no medical insurance required, (but sensibly I have a $1M+ expat policy anyway).

 

I wasn't forced out of Thailand by lack of money.  I had a 5-year Elite visa and a 120,000 THB+ monthly income from my online teaching.  I moved because of the uncertainly about what stupid rule the Thai authorities would implement next to inconvenience me. ????

 

Don't I remember reading there was another issue that came into play that helped determine your move, something to do with ownership of a hotel that was taken over by bad people and you wanted to leave the country?

[Airalee]

For all the people who say...

 

”I would leave if I could just sell my house/condo/etc”

 

Lower the price.

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, Airalee said:

For all the people who say...

 

”I would leave if I could just sell my house/condo/etc”

 

Lower the price.

I would leave if only I could sell my children ............

Only asking 5MBht for my daughter, University Educated, never worked in a bar, no previous boyfriends, etc., etc.

Edited December 22, 2019 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

33 minutes ago, CM Dad said:

Having a Thai spouse and family should mean something here, but, unfortunately, it does not. 

In Vietnam, a Viet spouse/child gets you a 5 year VISA for $50.

In the Philippines a Filipino spouse gets you a 1 year VISA free.

 

Thailand doesn't give a fig about families, and they sure let us know it.

Edited December 22, 2019 by BritManToo

[simon43]

4 minutes ago, saengd said:

Don't I remember reading there was another issue that came into play that helped determine your move, something to do with ownership of a hotel that was taken over by bad people and you wanted to leave the country?

That affair with the druggies wasn't why I moved to Luang Prabang.  That event happened maybe 3 years ago and I moved back to Burma, where I had been teaching previously.  Yes, I lost out with that event, but I'm always positive and optimistic.  

 

Having lived for years in Thailand, Laos and Burma, the only country where I've had some 'problems' has been in Thailand ???? . I suppose those past events did affect my decision to move out of Thailand permanently, but TBH, these events never even cross my mind now - I live for today and tomorrow.