UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't think 1,019 people surveyed by a pro-independence think-tank proves a lot tbh. 

Furthermore, if Hollyrood (the SNP) held the power to hold indy refs, we would have them every 6 months! Imagine the cost, chaos and tensions there would be. 

 

so what?

if that is what the jocks fancy - let 'em

 

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't vote for Brexit thinking it would break up the UK. And I still don't think Brexit will break up the UK. If I believed everything the SNP say, then maybe I would - but I don't. 

 

A question for you: Is there a reason why you wouldn't be willing to wait at least a couple of years for indy ref 2, just to see how a post-Brexit UK shapes up? What is the rush? I suspect it's because pro-independence Scots want to take advantage of anti-Brexit anger in Scotland. Am I right? 

 

 

 

why rush?

if being in the EU is important to Scotland, there is no point in wasting time

 

seeking membership and becoming a member would be a loooooooong process

 

 

[TheDark]

57 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

why rush?

if being in the EU is important to Scotland, there is no point in wasting time

 

seeking membership and becoming a member would be a loooooooong process

Indeed, why wait for 2 years as the referendum could be held in 6 months or 1 years time?

 

England has show it's power via Boris the Great, it's perfectly ok for Scotland to say what Scottish people think of being in a one way union with the English majority. 

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Sorry that I missed your response. My bad.  

 

quote "Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence."

 

Here is my answer. ???? ???? ????

 

I am so glad that you believe that I have the power to change all the rules and regulations (not that there were any) and move the goalposts for all referendums in the future.

 

However if you cannot see the difference between my thoughts and opinions and what the government is going to do/wants to do then don't blame me. I am not, nor have I ever been an MP, a member of the Illuminati, or even a member of a political party other than a non paid up member of the Brexit party.

 

When I saw the referendum paper it simply said Leave or Remain. There was no option for breaking up the union between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Perhaps there was on one from the SNP, but I don't think so.

 

The majority of people who want Scotland to leave the UK had the option at Indy ref#1 to do so. The SNP even banned Scots people living outside of Scotland from voting, but they did allow young people from 16 onwards to vote, but still the option to leave the UK was there.

 

Indy ref #1 failed 55% to 45%

 

quote " You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum."

 

Now let me see how far back it was since I had complete and absolute power over the whole of the UK? No, it seems that was never an option for me.

 

Who had control over the Brexit referendum? That would have been David Cameron and the Tories and not me.

 

Before you voted for Brexit did you understand what the question was?

If you didn't like the question, did you complain to your MP about it, or were you one of the people who thought that Brexit would never happen and so it didn't matter? 

Did you tell your MP that if the Brexit vote was to leave then it would mean breaking up the union?

 

If you did then, good for you. If you didn't then it is your problem.

 

If you REALLY want Scotland to leave the union, then get Nicola Sturgeon to make it a nationwide referendum for ALL voters registered on the electoral rolls of the UK and you can be sure of leaving.

 

BTW please don't keep blaming me for the problems between England and Scotland because I have/had nothing to do with it.

Very long post just to say "It's not my fault we all voted for Brexit knowing it would result in the breakup of the UK".

 

Everyone resident in Scotland (whether they were born there or not) was given a vote. Indeed studies have shown if the referendum had been limited to only people born in Scotland then the result would have been for YES. Now I have no problem with how people born outside of Scotland voted. They did so because they believed it was the best thing to do. But many of them being EU citizens will have changed their mind since. This is why you unionist Brexiteers fear another referendum. 

Its never going to be a UK wide referendum. Did the rest of Europe get a vote on Brexit? No. Just more duplicity from you guys.

 

To my knowledge there are very few problems between England and Scotland. Certainly not with the people (both English and Scottish) that I speak to. The issue is with constantly being governed by Conservative governments we didnt vote for. We want to take back control. We dont want unelected people governing our lives. We want our tartan passports back.

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't vote for Brexit thinking it would break up the UK. And I still don't think Brexit will break up the UK. If I believed everything the SNP say, then maybe I would - but I don't. 

 

A question for you: Is there a reason why you wouldn't be willing to wait at least a couple of years for indy ref 2, just to see how a post-Brexit UK shapes up? What is the rush? I suspect it's because pro-independence Scots want to take advantage of anti-Brexit anger in Scotland. Am I right? 

 

 

Then you must have had your fingers in your ears. You were well warned that Scotland would seek to go independent if leave won.

I suspect this is just the start of the Brexiteer "But we didnt think it was really going to happen like this" mantra.

You voted for it so man up and accept the consequences.

Lets get on with it.

[Forethat]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you must have had your fingers in your ears. You were well warned that Scotland would seek to go independent if leave won.

I suspect this is just the start of the Brexiteer "But we didnt think it was really going to happen like this" mantra.

You voted for it so man up and accept the consequences.

Lets get on with it.

Personally I'm fine with the scots leaving - especially if that's what they want - as long as they pay their debt. I mean I'd prefer they didn't but it's their choice and their hard earned cash.

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

There was actually very little mentioned of any breakup of the UK during the 2016 referendum campaign but now the SNP want to threaten this because remain lost. Most UK political parties wrongly assumed that the UK would vote to remain in the EU. Now, according to the SNP, the apparent will of the Scots is to leave the UK (in favour of the EU) but this does not reflect the wishes of the Scots in the 2014 referendum. The SNP won a majority of seats in Scotland in 2019 but they did not win the majority of Scottish votes, so the SNP should not assume that they are speaking for Scotland as a whole. I still haven't met a Scotsman (or woman) that wants Scotland to leave the United Kingdom and stay in the EU.

The problem with trying to rewrite history is you have to actually wait until everyone who was there at the time is dead.

It was well publicised that if the leave campaign won then Scotland would have another independence referendum and would leave.

It was all over the BBC. SKY News. Channel 4 news. ITV news. Now if you were only reading the Daily Fail and the Express then yes I can imagine how you might have missed it.

 

The SNP won in Scotland with 45% of the vote. Johnson won with 43%. Somehow that gives Johnson a mandate for Brexit but does not give Scotland a mandate for another referendum.

I will also add the support for independence is a cross party issue. Up to 1/3 of Labour supporters in Scotland would vote YES.

 

Talking to people In Wetherspoons will not give you any kind of accurate appraisal of anything.  

[Rookiescot]

8 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Personally I'm fine with the scots leaving - especially if that's what they want - as long as they pay their debt. I mean I'd prefer they didn't but it's their choice and their hard earned cash.

Thats fair enough.

[CG1 Blue]

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you must have had your fingers in your ears. You were well warned that Scotland would seek to go independent if leave won.

I suspect this is just the start of the Brexiteer "But we didnt think it was really going to happen like this" mantra.

You voted for it so man up and accept the consequences.

Lets get on with it.

But Scotland isn't seeking to go independent. The SNP are seeking Scottish independence.

 

And yes, the SNP warned us of this during the Brexit referendum. But they said they were going to win independence in 2014 too. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

But Scotland isn't seeking to go independent. The SNP are seeking Scottish independence.

 

And yes, the SNP warned us of this during the Brexit referendum. But they said they were going to win independence in 2014 too. 

The SNP have been the Scottish government for the last 10 odd years.

You didnt think that maybe you should have listened to them?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

The problem with trying to rewrite history is you have to actually wait until everyone who was there at the time is dead.

It was well publicised that if the leave campaign won then Scotland would have another independence referendum and would leave.

It was all over the BBC. SKY News. Channel 4 news. ITV news. Now if you were only reading the Daily Fail and the Express then yes I can imagine how you might have missed it.

 

The SNP won in Scotland with 45% of the vote. Johnson won with 43%. Somehow that gives Johnson a mandate for Brexit but does not give Scotland a mandate for another referendum.

I will also add the support for independence is a cross party issue. Up to 1/3 of Labour supporters in Scotland would vote YES.

 

Talking to people In Wetherspoons will not give you any kind of accurate appraisal of anything.  

I'm not rewriting anything. Nothing was well publicised, so please post some proof.

 

Your vote %'s are for the GE - not the referendum. Johnson's mandate for Brexit still comes from the 2016 referendum.

 

And FYI, I don't frequent Wetherspoons, probably why we've never met.

 

Sweet dreams .....zzzz

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you must have had your fingers in your ears. You were well warned that Scotland would seek to go independent if leave won.

I suspect this is just the start of the Brexiteer "But we didnt think it was really going to happen like this" mantra.

You voted for it so man up and accept the consequences.

Lets get on with it.

Well warned now? Terrifying. Let's get on with it 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why rush?

if being in the EU is important to Scotland, there is no point in wasting time

 

seeking membership and becoming a member would be a loooooooong process

 

 

in this case I would imagine that the EU would happily break their own rules (again).

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Scottish government for the last 10 odd years.

 

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Very long post just to say "It's not my fault we all voted for Brexit knowing it would result in the breakup of the UK".

 

Everyone resident in Scotland (whether they were born there or not) was given a vote. Indeed studies have shown if the referendum had been limited to only people born in Scotland then the result would have been for YES. Now I have no problem with how people born outside of Scotland voted. They did so because they believed it was the best thing to do. But many of them being EU citizens will have changed their mind since. This is why you unionist Brexiteers fear another referendum. 

Its never going to be a UK wide referendum. Did the rest of Europe get a vote on Brexit? No. Just more duplicity from you guys.

 

To my knowledge there are very few problems between England and Scotland. Certainly not with the people (both English and Scottish) that I speak to. The issue is with constantly being governed by Conservative governments we didnt vote for. We want to take back control. We dont want unelected people governing our lives. We want our tartan passports back.

We don't want unelected people governing our lives! ????

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

The SNP have been the Scottish government for the last 10 odd years.

You didnt think that maybe you should have listened to them?

You think I should have voted to remain in the EU for fear that the SNP would be campaigning for Scottish independence if Leave won? I don't. Why would I let the SNP influence my decision in the Brexit referendum?

 

The SNP are always campaigning for Scottish independence. 

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

I'm not rewriting anything. Nothing was well publicised, so please post some proof.

 

Your vote %'s are for the GE - not the referendum. Johnson's mandate for Brexit still comes from the 2016 referendum.

 

And FYI, I don't frequent Wetherspoons, probably why we've never met.

 

Sweet dreams .....zzzz

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18193262.nearly-75-scots-believe-brexit-vote-wrong-new-poll-finds/

 

Scotland wants to remain in the EU. Ergo we want out of the UK.

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

in this case I would imagine that the EU would happily break their own rules (again).

In this case I think we agree.

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

We don't want unelected people governing our lives! ????

When do I get the chance to vote on who sits in the house of lords?

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You think I should have voted to remain in the EU for fear that the SNP would be campaigning for Scottish independence if Leave won? I don't. Why would I let the SNP influence my decision in the Brexit referendum?

 

The SNP are always campaigning for Scottish independence. 

Hey if the breakup of the UK was not enough to change your mind over Brexit then thats fine.

It's a price worth paying for many I suspect.

[RuamRudy]

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't think 1,019 people surveyed by a pro-independence think-tank proves a lot tbh. 

Furthermore, if Hollyrood (the SNP) held the power to hold indy refs, we would have them every 6 months! Imagine the cost, chaos and tensions there would be. 

We have had more than a few challenges of the veracity of opinion polls so I am not sure that there is any point going over it once again, but I think given that it was carried out by survation should at least indicate that they followed a standard methodology. 

 

To paraphrase your last point - if we gave the scots the power to make decisions for themselves, they would likely use it. 

 

But you have nothing to fear - I am confident that there would only be one referendum. No further one would be necessary. 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, Forethat said:

Personally I'm fine with the scots leaving - especially if that's what they want - as long as they pay their debt. I mean I'd prefer they didn't but it's their choice and their hard earned cash.

We need to see the receipts though - I have never seen an honest tory politician so we will only pay itemised bills. 

[evadgib]

Some Red Meat (Fish) for you RR ????

Sustainable fisheries enshrined in law as UK leaves the EU

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Some Red Meat (Fish) for you RR ????

Sustainable fisheries enshrined in law as UK leaves the EU

I guess you need to protect something in order to give it away... ????

[sandyf]

On 1/27/2020 at 11:00 PM, CG1 Blue said:

If that evidence can only come from holding a referendum, why do you and others tell us that the Scottish people want to leave the union?

You would need to show me where I ever said that, I have only ever said they have the right to choose.

Post No 523

"The Scottish government is not demanding independence just asking that the people of Scotland be given the opportunity to choose."

Post No 520

"Like you, and everyone else, I have no idea if the majority would actually vote to leave the UK or not."

 

An apology is due but not going to hold my breath.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, Forethat said:

as long as they pay their debt.

No problem with that, as long as you repay the north sea revenue that Maggie T gave away.

You only have to look at Norway to see how Westminster screwed things up.

 

When the North Sea was providing maximum income, Thatcher's chancellor, Nigel Lawson slashed income and other direct taxes, especially for the rich. The top rate of tax came down from 60p in the pound to just 40p by 1988. He also reduced the basic rate of income tax; but the poor wouldn't have seen much of those pounds in their pockets, as, thanks to the Tories, they were paying more VAT.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/north-sea-oil-money-uk-norwegians-fund

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18193262.nearly-75-scots-believe-brexit-vote-wrong-new-poll-finds/

 

Scotland wants to remain in the EU. Ergo we want out of the UK.

Not according to most sources:

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1194673/angus-robertson-brexit-snp-nicola-sturgeon

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not according to most sources:

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1194673/angus-robertson-brexit-snp-nicola-sturgeon

Emily Thornbury said of the SNP "they are like the Tories in wrapped up in nationalist clothing" ????????????

[CG1 Blue]

8 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18193262.nearly-75-scots-believe-brexit-vote-wrong-new-poll-finds/

 

Scotland wants to remain in the EU. Ergo we want out of the UK.

I think this says the majority of Scots would rather the UK wasn't leaving the EU. That was pretty clear already. 

I don't think it's right to assume they would sacrifice the union in order to get back into the EU. Some would, some wouldn't. 

[CG1 Blue]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We have had more than a few challenges of the veracity of opinion polls so I am not sure that there is any point going over it once again, but I think given that it was carried out by survation should at least indicate that they followed a standard methodology. 

 

To paraphrase your last point - if we gave the scots the power to make decisions for themselves, they would likely use it. 

 

But you have nothing to fear - I am confident that there would only be one referendum. No further one would be necessary. 

There won't be a 2nd indy ref until at least 2021. The UK has enough to contend with this year, sorting out the future trading relationship with the EU and other countries. 

Let's get that sorted, and then check the mood in Scotland. That would be more sensible IMO. 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You would need to show me where I ever said that, I have only ever said they have the right to choose.

Post No 523

"The Scottish government is not demanding independence just asking that the people of Scotland be given the opportunity to choose."

Post No 520

"Like you, and everyone else, I have no idea if the majority would actually vote to leave the UK or not."

 

An apology is due but not going to hold my breath.

The general trend on here has been for the pro-indi Scots to suggest that a referendum should happen asap because the majority in Scotland want independence. If that's not what you've been saying then I'm happy to apologise.