Bad day at CM Imm: Retirement extension

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

TransferWise uses the mid-exchange rate (which is the actual conversion rate and not the inflated rate that banks charge you) and charges a relatively small fee for its service.

 

It may have been the timing, (ie before the bank updates it's rates this morning), but look closely. I just looked at  Transferwise and their 'Low Cost Transfer Fee', was not so 'low cost' at 59GBP. My UK bank does free 'SWIFT' transfers and the receiving rate in Thailand makes this competitive... just the Thai Bank receiving charge of 500 baht to worry about. Transferwise have put their charges up. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by jacko45k

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

It may have been the timing, (ie before the bank updates it's rates this morning), but look closely. I just looked at  Transferwise and their 'Low Cost Transfer Fee, was not so 'low cost' at 59GBP. My bank does free 'SWIFT' transfers and the receiving rate in Thailand makes this competitive... just the Thai Bank receiving charge of 500 to worry about. Transferwise have put their charges up. 

The receiving bank rate is no where close to the TW rate at the same precise time for GBP.. Tested many times.. It is close for USD however. 

So while there is a fee, you always (with GBP) save on the FX, and theres no hidden fees (when nonb THB arrives they often hide a quick 25 usd in that conversion as you cant see it unless you demand breakdowns from head office) and having tested it many many times over the years it always seems to be converted suspiciously at the lows of the dayu, something you cannot contest or argue as you can never really know when it arrived to the minute. 

Not some kind of apostle for TW.. Only I use it in my business to pay 80 people a week, having tested them, revolut, banks, and every other service many ways.. TW is as far as I can see, the best by far. I will say USD rates are not as good as GBP EUR AUD etc. 

 

[jacko45k]

14 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The receiving bank rate is no where close to the TW rate at the same precise time for GBP.. Tested many times.. It is close for USD however. 

Please absorb my point. As far as I am concerned the true Transferwise 'rate' is nett of their 'Fee', which is high. The way TW presents it to you is a slight cover up, they deduct first deduct their 'fee' from the amount you wish to transfer in original currency..... then apply their 'no where close' rate.

If  I transfer xxx Sterling via my bank, Bangkok Bank receives same xxx Sterling, and converts it. No hidden extras there beyond 500 baht BB take. 

 

Anyhow, better not to say more, it will be deleted as off topic. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by jacko45k

[LivinLOS]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Please absorb my point. As far as I am concerned the true Transferwise 'rate' is nett of their 'Fee' which is high. The way TW presents it to you is a slight cover up, they deduct their 'fee' from the amount you wish to transfer in original currency..... then apply their 'no where close' rate. I transfer xxx Sterling, Bangkok Bank receives xxx Sterling and converts it. No hidden extras there. 

 

Anyhow, better not to say more, it will be deleted as off topic. 

I have absorbed your point.. 

And I have compared 50 500 5000 GBP EUR (and in theory only) AUD, including UK sending FX and receiving fees, using the kasikorn online TT remittance rates, in every case TW wins.  The more I send the more it wins by.. Note the tests mean I send money from TW borderless bank (no funding fee) and my UK and EUR banks both have a sending fee. 

Secondly, in reality theres a few hidden fees, which are either impossible or hard to see.. As outlined in suspicious low rates, a reception FX fee, etc.   

Edited January 9, 2020 by LivinLOS

[earlinclaifornia]

Same here for me at CM, denial and have to leave. My BB had explained that a new USA law prohibited my deposit in September here in Saraphi and was reurned to remittance in NYBB. I was told my home address here has to be on file in NYBB, enforcing a new law in USA. So i contacted and provided this to them as insructed. They wrote back saying they needed more information. I gave great detail and the funds were returned. The problem for me was I get paid every fourth week of each month. So in reailty my September deposit was recorded the first day of the following month, October 1. The agents involved didn't care at all about this and would not even look at the emails correspondance as proof. The supervisor maintaied the one day late was grounds for refusal. The sad part after this being my fourth renewal is again because of this i will for a third time leave and have to start over as a tourist. So much for Thailands Immigration lack of help!

[moe666]

I just did a conversion to marriage visa I will be going back to retirement visa. Your problem isn't about  amount of money but how it is shown in the transfer. To late to change anything in that reguard except for the letter of fte. Just get a new non-o visa and put the money in the bank and do your extension latter in the year

[Peter Denis]

There are many threads on the Forum discussing the TransferWise service.

Some claim that there are cheaper options when transferring very large amounts.

But TransferWise has several advantages:

- TransferWise is completely transparent > you will know beforehand the exact amount you will be charged and the exact amount in THB that will be transferred to your thai bank-account;

- TransferWise is real fast > when your thai bank-account is with one of their partner-banks (BKK, Kasikorn, TMB) the money is transferred almost instantly.  It can take 1-2 business days depending on your foreign bank or non-partner thai bank;

- TransferWise allows you to 'play' the currency exchange rates in real-time > they use the official mid-rate which fluctuates continuously, and you can have TW track them and notify you when the rate goes over a limit you choose.

[Crazy Noobie]

I can relate to some of your issues. Last year, every time I turned around I received different information on what to do. I had my money transferred to Thailand and the code ended up being BAHTNET, instead of FTT. Which I found out later that meant it was going to a different bank in Thailand, then transferred to my local bank. I also had an issue with the banks changing the way things were transferred, as dropping the ACH and using the Swift method. The way I fixed everything, was to have all of my money from all sources to be direct deposited into my USA bank, which used the Swift method for transferring. Then in-turn the bank transferred my money to Thailand as US dollars, directly to my bank. So now I have no issues, as my bankbook shows the code of FTT and all of my money makes it to Thailand. Since I had some issues and I wanted no immigration issues, I used a local agent here in CM. As because of all of the above issues, I only had two months of showing FTT funds. So using an agent, everything went thru real smooth and I only spent 5 minutes at immigration to do my extension (retirement). Went in, sat down, was called to counter to have picture taken, sat down, then 3 minutes later, here is my passport, everything done. Didn't even talk to one person in immigration. For me, using an agent is the only way to go. So my suggestion to you is, use an agent this time around so you don't have any issues. It only cost me 5,500 baht for peace of mind.

[ThaiWai]

17 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Just make sure that when you do your money transfers with TransferWise, you chose the option "Funds for long term stay in Thailand" (when asked what your reason is for sending the money).  That way (using a Bangkok bank acct), your TransferWise deposits will be coded as FTT.

I wish someone posted this a year ago.  That minute detail is all an I/O needs to ruin an application?  Great system.  Where can I buy a "Thanks Again Thai Immigration" T=Shirt?

Edited January 9, 2020 by ThaiWai

[ThailandRyan]

Can someone explain the BAHTNET issue.  I have been transferring a monthly sum in excess of 65,000 baht, from my U.S. Chase Bank account into my Kasikorn Bank account, and it shows up as a BAHTNET transfer, not FTT.  Why would this transfer from a foreign bank account not be accepted for proof of funds for a Retirement extension.  I also can obtain a letter from the State of California's CALPers pension account which indicates I receive a monthly pension in xxxx.xx amount of money for life.  I am on an O-A Visa, and will need to convert this eventually into an Extension of Stay, but still have almost 9 months until that would need to be done unless I leave before the date of my Admitted until Date, and return before that date and then obtain another year.  I originally was here on an "O" based upon marriage but due to a divorce had to return to the U.S. and obtained the O-A visa for retirement.  Of course I do have the required Health Insurance plan required by Thai law as I have lived here for awhile.  Please help me to understand the issue of why the banks transfer now shows BAHTNET which is a TFO, and not showing as a TFN international transaction.  As I read the above if I transferred in USD then I would not get a BAHTNET code but the FTO which Kasikorn lists as an international transaction.  Kasikorn does not show FTT on their lists of codes anywhere I could find.

 

As of know this is what I see on my Statement:

TFO13271-TFO13273, TFO13276-TFO13278
รับโอนเงินจากต่างธนาคาร Bahtnet
 

Instead of:

TFN05027 – TFN05032
น าเงินเข้า/หักบัญชีธุรกรรมต่างประเทศ International Transction
 

Edited January 9, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, ThaiWai said:

I wish someone posted this a year ago.  That minute detail is all an I/O needs to ruin an application?  Great system.  Where can I buy a "Thanks Again Thai Immigration" T=Shirt?

It is a relatively new option that TW brought in to handle the need.... probably 6 months ago. I expect you still need to bank with one of their 3 Thai partners.

[DrJack54]

Ryan, put 800k in the Thai bank and forget about it. Save yourself the stress

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Ryan, put 800k in the Thai bank and forget about it. Save yourself the stress

Thanks DrJack, that's why I am transferring the money monthly to build up to the 800,000.  I use my international CC to pay my monthly bills as there are no fees and I build up my Air Miles.

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Thanks DrJack, that's why I am transferring the money monthly to build up to the 800,000.  I use my international CC to pay my monthly bills as there are no fees and I build up my Air Miles.

Good move. BTW good to see your aware of the "second year" you can obtain with your O-A. Make sure you use it. Enjoy short holiday perhaps. My vote Saigon.

[IAMHERE]

YOU don't get it. You are a Farang. There are no glasses raised to those IO's that help Farang at the end of the day. Just the opposite I suspect. The Thai idea is that there are ten undesirable Farang  waiting to take your place. I have to think they are correct when I look at the Farang at immigration, no lack of them.

[Dazinoz]

17 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

What I still don't understand is, how will I know in advance that the transfer will show the FTT code that Imm demands? I could jump through a lot of hoops and still be on square 1. It's still gotta be transferred into BkkBk somehow. How do I control which method the sending institution uses? As I mentioned above, the pension fund wire transfers the money, but they do it without meeting the ACH standard that BB requires.

Originally I used the Commonwealth Bank in Oz to transfer money to Bangkok Bank, always FTT. End of 2018 I read about Transferwise so started using them as I got a better exchange rate. For the first 6 months showed as FTT then about May last year came through as SMT (Smartnet). I contacted Transferwise and they said they had changed banking arrangements in Thailand but would mark my account as transfers must goto BB but said may occasionally fail. But since then Transfers have shown as FTT.

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, moe666 said:

I just did a conversion to marriage visa I will be going back to retirement visa.

Interested in the reason WHY you would switch from a marriage Visa to a retirement Visa.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Interested in the reason WHY you would switch from a marriage Visa to a retirement Visa.

If money is not an issue, then to drop 800k into an FD a/c makes it very simple process for extension. Don't some imm office do home visit for ME along with witness etc. Have even read some io prefer retirement extensions (easier for them?) hence perhaps bit more fussy.

I guess that's why many married guys opt for retirement extensions.

[john terry1001]

17 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

To Peter Denis:

I'm not quoting, just to avoid repeating all of that. But . . .

Now that's what I call a thorough response. Thanks for that wealth of information.

Just to add one thing to Peter's very good suggestion and accurate information, If you open a Transferwise BORDERLESS account you are given your own individual account number, as opposed to the usual standard TW account number and ref number given to use for standard transfers.

 

That way you could instruct your pension provider to transfer your pension directly into your Borderless account, with immediate access for you to transfer directly to your Thai Bangkok bank account, removing any possible delays due to the ACH process.

[john terry1001]

59 minutes ago, ThaiWai said:

18 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Just make sure that when you do your money transfers with TransferWise, you chose the option "Funds for long term stay in Thailand" (when asked what your reason is for sending the money).  That way (using a Bangkok bank acct), your TransferWise deposits will be coded as FTT.

I wish someone posted this a year ago.  That minute detail is all an I/O needs to ruin an application?  Great system.  Where can I buy a "Thanks Again Thai Immigration" T=Shirt?

TW introduced this option in July 2019, six months ago. I and several others posted this information in July.

[DUNROAMIN]

Sorry to say that Thailand Immigration are a law unto themselves and every Immigration office/officer like to have their power trip. They are the worst government agency in this country, This is why hundreds of expats are leaving for a better country without all the hassles. I believe even the Thai police are above them.

[KKr]

18 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Their 'trick' is that they do not physically transfer your funds, but they have agreements with partner-banks in Thailand and your transfer is actually a domestic transfer, as it is their partner-bank that transfers the funds to your bank-account.

thank you for that elaboration.  
so transfer-wise is an international clearing house for transfers. very smart idea.

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

...

I am on an O-A Visa, and will need to convert this eventually into an Extension of Stay, but still have almost 9 months until that would need to be done unless I leave before the date of my Admitted until Date, and return before that date and then obtain another year.  I originally was here on an "O" based upon marriage but due to a divorce had to return to the U.S. and obtained the O-A visa for retirement. 

Of course I do have the required Health Insurance plan required by Thai law as I have lived here for awhile. 

...

I understand you entered Thailand some 3 months ago on a pre Oct31 issued Non Imm OA Visa.

So indeed, if you exit and re-enter before your OA Visa validity expires, you will be stamped in again for a 12 month permission to stay that your not-expired OA Visa grants you.  Note: In that 2nd period you would need re-entry permits when exiting/re-entering Thailand again to keep that permision to stay alive.

So it's only somewhere October 2021 you would need to apply for an extension of stay of that Non Imm OA Visa.

>> But to avoid a rude awakening - better check if the Health Insurance plan you have, is indeed one of the thai-approved policies now required for extension of an OA - retirement Visa.

If not, there is no man over-board as you could then decide to convert to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa, as that option does not require the mandatory and expensive thai-approved bogus insurance.

[Dazinoz]

32 minutes ago, DUNROAMIN said:

Sorry to say that Thailand Immigration are a law unto themselves and every Immigration office/officer like to have their power trip. They are the worst government agency in this country, This is why hundreds of expats are leaving for a better country without all the hassles. I believe even the Thai police are above them.

I like your coin avatar. Maybe I should use this one.

[crazykopite]

Gutted for you my friend every year the IM make life for we long termer’s much more difficult . I don’t know the answer to your question I am assuming you are not married to a Thai lady as the 500,000 would be enough on a visa based on marriage . I have chosen the 800,000 route as much as I detest it means that once I have got the renewal processed I can reduce it to 400,000 allowing me daily living which means that the amount of money in my overseas bank has accumulated each mother by pension payments I then bring all this in in one transaction saving me multiple transfer payments which ensures I have sufficient funds in my Thai bank for my next extension of stay 

[wwest5829]

Faced this in December at the end of the month when my Fidelity scheduled transfer was to take place. Knew it was probably coming so I had previously set up TransferWise to debit the monthly transfer (I had written to Fidelity and Bangkok Bank and both previously confirmed that the Fidelity transfer would stop as not being in the Bangkok Bank designated format). I have my SS ($1306.00 per month after my $20 a month raise this year) deposited automatically with Fidelity, then draw an additional amount to make up the required 65K foreign transfer. Having told TransferWise of the direct deposit needed for immigration here, I note that TransferWise has a designation on their transfer order that the amount is to be used to support Thailand expenses. The transfer coming into my Bangkok Bank account is designated as FTT (same as previously through BKK NYC).

[Captain 776]

All my checks go to Bangkok Bank New York City.

Social Security is fine, never a problem because they are in the proper IAT format. International ACH Transfer.

My retirement acct checks got rejected Dec 1.

To be clear.......that is NOT a Bangkok Bank problem, they are complying with U S Banking laws and the directive from Dept. Of Treasury.

My retirement acct has NO CLUE what IAT is and no desire to know.

I personally called their bank Wells Fargo International Transfer Dept and asked if Empower directs you to send my checks in IAT format.....can you.....will you?

YES......just have Empower give us the direction.

After several calls to Empower Management, I filed claims with

Inspector General for a Treasury Dept

Inspector General for Securities and Exchange Commission

FINRA......FINRA is the primary overseer of all biker at hold retirement funds and they are overseen by SEC, Dept of Treasury and ultimately the IRS.

 

TO ME, it’s beyond stupid that they can’t give direction to Wells Fargo when I already confirmed it is no problem.

 

ACH to IAT is just a different form that is more secure, more info, and aids Treasury in money laundering investigation.

Google IAT format......then click images, you can see.

 

Just like everything else, there is an App for it........the bank issuing the wire transfer types the information just like it was an ACH and the software automatically puts that information in the correct box on the IAT.

 

ITS THAT SIMPLE.......that’s why it’s so hard for them.

[ThailandRyan]

32 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I understand you entered Thailand some 3 months ago on a pre Oct31 issued Non Imm OA Visa.

So indeed, if you exit and re-enter before your OA Visa validity expires, you will be stamped in again for a 12 month permission to stay that your not-expired OA Visa grants you.  Note: In that 2nd period you would need re-entry permits when exiting/re-entering Thailand again to keep that permision to stay alive.

So it's only somewhere October 2021 you would need to apply for an extension of stay of that Non Imm OA Visa.

>> But to avoid a rude awakening - better check if the Health Insurance plan you have, is indeed one of the thai-approved policies now required for extension of an OA - retirement Visa.

If not, there is no man over-board as you could then decide to convert to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa, as that option does not require the mandatory and expensive thai-approved bogus insurance.

My HI has been with Pacific Cross for almost 6 years, It is an Ultima Plus Plan Peter, and it has been now entered in the data base with immigration as per the requirements and I received a text and e-mail just last week from Pacific Cross validating that.  I can play the O-A game and run back and forth to California every 2 years and not do the extension of stay if I want as I have my adult children still living there.  I was just trying to understand the issue with why immigration does not like the BAHTNET listed transfer.  Its a painless process for me to get the O-A as I have all the needed information, the only two big things are the Medical which requires notarizing and the criminal history finger prints.  These take about 14 days to obtain, and the medical is easy as I need an annual physical which my US Health care covers.  My Pacific Cross has a deductible which is then reimbursed at 80% from my Anthem Blue Cross in the U.S. when submitted through Blue Cross Worldwide.  I could use your roadmap if needed but to me there is no need to jump to another country to go the "O" Visa route as I return as I said to visit.

 

You say the Thai insurance plan is bogus, but in my eyes I use my plan and it pays out with no problems, always has.  I would rather be over insured then under insured and be stuck out.....I have no issues.  I leave 75% of my income in the US and build it up every month.  I own a condo here, and its paid for.  Since I switched to the retirement O-A, I did not want to  sink 800,000 baht into a Thai Bank immediately, and was hoping the monthly transfers would be accepted.  Its the issue now with them being BAHTNET listed and not as an FTT on my statements which is why I will build up to 800,000 over the next 21 months should I decide not to visit the US and have a new O-A issued.  Not all of us here think we are being screwed over.  Its a game and I have always played by the rules.  I tried to get my US HI to fill out the document so when the time came I could use it instead of my Pacific Cross policy, but they would not sign the Thai form.  

Edited January 9, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[wwest5829]

19 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I never understand why people have pensions, etc. transferred directly into Thai accounts.

From my experience, a total resolution to the transfer issue is to have them sent into your home country bank.

Then, wire transfer to BKB they will post as " international transfer".

Yes, it cost me $25 so what no issues or hassles so far.

Wire transfer is fine. What I do comes in at around $15.00 through TransferWise and BKK 200 baht nick. Cheap Charlie? Not really but I am here in part because my sustainable budget is about $2400.00 a month. Been here for a few years so my mind is on the Thai economy cost, not what I can not afford to buy at US costs. What is it that we say? A retiree on a fixed Or limited income? I recall the family motto over the rich kid’s house on the “Dobby Gillis” show ... “Never dip into capital”.

[JDGRUEN]

19 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Hi Lawrence,

It's appalling that your IO doesn't accept the foreign origin of the funds on your bank-account, even though - as you rightly mention - every reasonable person can see that the money was deposited from the same source to the same account in the same amount as it had been. Unfortunately, reasonable people aren't employed at CM Immigration.

You have time till end of January before your permission to stay expires.

So I would suggest you go back with the additional documentation your BKK Bank source provided you with.

Chances are you have a different immigration officer handling your case, and that might make all the difference in the world.

If that still doesn't work, you could do the following:

1. Exit Thailand and re-enter VisaExempt which will give a 30 days permission to stay.  That VisaExempt entry can be extended with an additional 30 days at any IO (cost 1900 THB), in case you would be short on time for the next steps.

2. Send the equivalent of 800.000 THB over from your foreign account to your thai bank-account, and make sure that the transaction will be coded as coming from abroad on your thai bank-book.

3. Apply for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa at the IO of the place where you want to stay long-term in Thailand.  This has to be done 15 days (some offices require 21 days) before the permission to stay from your (extended) VisaExempt entry expires.

Attached the requirements below.  

Please note that Clause 8 of the requirements asking for evidence of a Rental Agreement between the Applicant and the Landlord, as well as a Location map of the house is ONLY applicable when you apply at Chiang Wattana (CW government complex in Bangkok).

However it might be useful to enquire at your local IO whether they impose additional requirements not mentioned in the document linked above.

4. In the last month of that 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, you can apply for a 1-year extension of stay at the same IO where you made the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement application.

The origins of the 800K in your thai bank-account don't need to be proven again, but the money has to be at least 2 months in your thai bank-account before doing the application for extension.

That will be no problem as you needed to have the 800K already on your thai bank-account when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa 2-3 months earlier.

5. Once your 1-year extension of stay has been granted, you actually have same status as you had previously.

Because the conditions and requirements for an extension of stay based on an OA - retirement Visa or on an O - retirement Visa are the same.  But with a nice extra bonus, because when applying for the Non Imm O - retirement Visa there is no need to subscribe to the bogus thai-approved health-insurance scam.

 

Note: If you are married to a thai national, you can follow the exact same steps as outlined above.  But instead of applying for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa and subsequent extension, you can do it for reason of marriage (instead of retirement).  The requirements are somewhat different (you would of course have to provide proof of being married) , but the bonus there is that you only need to provide evidence of 400K on your thai bank-account.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

1551323081128 - Non Imm O retirement requirements.pdf 136.82 kB · 5 downloads

BTW - I did not intend to reply to a particular comment but I could not find a way to make a general comment) 

Never The Less...

OP - the suggestion (for the coming year - not for this current Extension Application) to consolidate your pension funds in the U. S. at one bank or use the TransferWise Borderless Account. - either way is a good suggestion. By using TransferWise to transfer your funds - to a Bangkok Bank Account from the U. S. is easy using TW's online interface or their App on a phone or Tablet. When using TW all you have to do is choose the Reason for sending option - "Funds for Long Term Stay in Thailand". You will get the money fairly quickly, at an excellent Exchange rate (USD to THB) at a modest fee. The transfer deposit will be labeled "International Transfer" in the account ledger and the same transfer will be encoded as FTT (Foreign Telegraphic Transfer) in the updated printout in the Bankbook. This labeling and encoding alleviates the need to hunt down an FET Form or get, a Credit Advices Letter. 

I have TransferWise Facebook Group of over 700 Expats that have tested the procedure I just described above since last August having a 100% success rate of correct labeling and encoding that meets Thai Immigration's expectations. 

By the way - this same group of Expats report that getting an actual FET Form is becoming quite difficult and instead they are given a "Credit Advices" Letter instead (which provides much the same info as a FET Form. 

One last thing... The TW Borderless Account provides a easy method of consolidating funds from your USA bank or banks and a pension fund. You can see the funds as they arrive and consolidate in the Borderless Account. Then - with the touch of a button you can send the funds on to your Thailand B.B. Account using the TW App and the procedure I outlined above with the assurance that your next 12 monthly transfer deposits will be properly labeled and encoded to comply with the International Transfer required by Thai Immigration. There is even an automatic method of sending the separate funds to the Borderless Account. 

You are invited to join my FB Group TransferWise Solutions to find out more about how this works. 

 https://www.facebook.com/groups/TWSOL/