Divorce, divorce, divorce in Thailand

[Gabriel1]

Divorce, this is always an interesting topic.  I went to Bangkok southern district civil court on a property case and my wife was the defendant. 

She is now a USA citizen and lives there.  I still live in SE Asia, but not Thailan. She came back to testify and the short story is the judge dismissed the case on the grounds that we were married and still had rights and duties to each.  Considering that we have been apart for 8 years, one would think the court would not find that as an impediment. Also, the sitting judge, called me to the front before any testimony was taken and advised me to transfer this case to family court, and he would return all my filing fees which were significant.  In the heat of the moment, I just wanted this over and according to my attorney, we should win. They always say that even in the USA.  Well stupid me for not do what I mostly do, and ask a lot of question. I would love to connect with that judge and ask him some question. I would recognize him and he went to University in Washington DC.  Any ideas on how to find the judge in the southern district family court?????

 

Now I am looking for an attorney, who can speak English, or has a alternative for the communication issue. I recently talked to an American attorney who is the Senior Exec at a firm that uses Thai attorneys to litigate.  Thailand has two level pricing on most things.  If you are Thai you get the real price and if you are a tourist (all foreigners qualify) you get to pay a lot more. In legal firms if there is an English interface you get the tourist price.  The American I recently talked to wants me to send him $3000 for a retainer and then will bill me $170/hour.  He has not provided any statement of work or timing for milestone deliverables. Nice work if you can get it. A friend of mine recently went through a divorce in CA, Silicon Valley, and paid $250/hour. Anyone that can provide typical pricing for divorce in Thailand, please do. this will be very helpful in evaluating legal proposals.

 

What I am looking for is a Lawyer in BKK*, who is competent and charges Thai prices to all clients. If you have recommendations your help much appreciated. Please supply details Name, email and or phone, location, and any why you are recommending him. 

*I no longer live in BKK, so I will consider other options, but no two tier pricing and money grabbers. Just straight up competent attorneys that love to practice law. If it is a pain in the butt to access the lawyers location, I will consider if the reasons are compelling. 

 

Okay, take your shots, have fun, and if you can be helpful.  I stand to lose a lot.

[Katy Gorice]

On 2/28/2020 at 3:40 PM, Gabriel1 said:

according to my attorney, we should win

they always say that... 

in many cases, your demand is (could be) dismissed by a judge, and there goes all the money you paid your lawyer, court fees, etc...

 

lawyers are sharks, they smell blood and you will bleed money

 

indeed, when they see a farang and have to speak some english (did they not have to learn that at UNI ?) , your bill will be DISGUSTING

 

the retainer fee you mentioned is super low ... I got quoted 300.000-500.000 retainer fee and their billing hours with many different prices for different people / work ...  but off course, you can check nothing, just cough up ...

 

you will think, how do thai people ever afford to get divorced ?

 

maybe the murder / suicide rate here has something to do with

 

poor thais don't have to fight over houses they paid for and ending up with nothing, so they can go to the local ampur and get divorced for 20 baht

 

in the worst case, you get screwed over by your own LAWYER

 

the horror stories of your own lawyer co-hooting with the enemy - thais love thai after all - is REAL !

 

don't if you try to get your ex-lawyer to court, you will get an extra defamation lawsuit on top

 

being screwed over by your (ex)wife first and then again by your own lawyer, the courts ...

 

 

 

[Russell17au]

Firstly both you and your ex have to put aside your arrogant attitude that "I am going to win" because while you and your ex have that attitude then only the lawyers and the courts win. You have to sit down with your ex and use some common sense. You must remember that what ever you buy during the marriage with the exception of the house is communal property and under Thai law it is divided 50-50. The best way to do it is sit down with your ex and calmly talk this through and not get lawyers involved. I did my Thai divorce and it cost me 20 baht at the local Amphur office because I sat down and talked with my ex and we came to an agreement and then went to the Amphur office with 2 witnesses and paid the 20 baht and walked out with everything done and finished in 20 minutes without lawyers involved. The divorce is called consensual divorce

[bkk6060]

8 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Firstly both you and your ex have to put aside your arrogant attitude that "I am going to win" because while you and your ex have that attitude then only the lawyers and the courts win. You have to sit down with your ex and use some common sense. You must remember that what ever you buy during the marriage with the exception of the house is communal property and under Thai law it is divided 50-50. The best way to do it is sit down with your ex and calmly talk this through and not get lawyers involved. I did my Thai divorce and it cost me 20 baht at the local Amphur office because I sat down and talked with my ex and we came to an agreement and then went to the Amphur office with 2 witnesses and paid the 20 baht and walked out with everything done and finished in 20 minutes without lawyers involved. The divorce is called consensual divorce

Good advice you are certainly an optimist.

90% of the divorces I know turn to hate and they other party does not even want to see your face let alone talk to you.

Hope it works out for the OP.

[Scouse123]

The giveaway was when the Judge called you to the front and told you he would refund fees and then told you it would be better to take it up with the family court.

 

You chose to listen to the lawyer and not the presiding judge?

 

Well done!

[SoSoCNX]

Retainer fee is good for a lawyer buy not for a plaintiff.

There is plenty of lawyers with Thai and foreigners law degrees.  

Choose one that knows judge. You will pay more but you will get what you want. 

Wish You All the Best! 

Never Ever Marry Thai.

[colinneil]

13 minutes ago, SoSoCNX said:

 

Never Ever Marry Thai.

What a crazy comment, i am married to a Thai lady, no better wife could any man want.

There for me 24/7, takes care of my every need, washes me, cleans me, always there ready to help me, night and day, every minute she is not at work, she is there helping me.

Yes and i was also married to a Thai before, worst wife any man could want, deceitful, scheming, dishonest, lying, knife wielding woman., still have the knife scar.

[thornton39]

Hi Gabriel1,  I have an on-going case in Pattaya, albeit not for divorce.  When started, I was desperate to find an honest and fair English speaking lawyer and eventually, I took pot luck. I appointed a Bangkok lawyer and have been perfectly happy with my choice and would thoroughly recommend her.  Her name is PONGKARN KHUNPHASEE, nickname Aom.  She speaks fairly fluent English and recently returned for getting an additional law degree in the USA.  Aom has her own law company and can be contacted at [email protected].  Tel: +66(0)894599144 or +66(0)859254941  Address: 229/16 The Regent Orchid, Sukhumvit 101, Bangjark, Prakhanong, Bangkok 10260.  Website: https://bancheelegal.com/.   I you decide to contact Aom, feel free to mention my recommendation,  re- Daniel and Yupha.

[bkk6060]

33 minutes ago, colinneil said:

What a crazy comment, i am married to a Thai lady, no better wife could any man want.

There for me 24/7, takes care of my every need, washes me, cleans me, always there ready to help me, night and day, every minute she is not at work, she is there helping me.

Yes and i was also married to a Thai before, worst wife any man could want, deceitful, scheming, dishonest, lying, knife wielding woman., still have the knife scar.

Glad you found a good women but why is his comment crazy when you admitted your first Thai wife sounds basically insane.  I am sure she did not show those signs prior or else you would not have married her.

Women can turn quickly especially here where family and friends are number one. And once they have the house, cars, and motorbikes and know they can own 1/2 of your assets.

So. I guess the odds are 50-50?  Not great in my opinion...

 

 

[Kalasin Jo]

8 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Good advice you are certainly an optimist.

90% of the divorces I know turn to hate and they other party does not even want to see your face let alone talk to you.

Hope it works out for the OP.

 

8 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Good advice you are certainly an optimist.

90% of the divorces I know turn to hate and they other party does not even want to see your face let alone talk to you.

Hope it works out for the OP.

Yup. Not a Thai, but my first???? divorce we were both lawyered up ( and we were both lawyers ourselves but not for divorce stuff) and she had a manhating rottweiler. Virtually put me in chains pending the big day, froze all my assets put on a very modest daily allowance too. Thought I had big money offshore because I'd been spotted looking at at a 50 ft yacht at London boat show! I didn't but there it was. Long and short, in the end sat down with wife, mentioned the astronomical fees so far and did she really think I had millions detached? Did she really want the father of our two children being visited by them in a gritty bedsit? We talked it all through rationally band came up with a deal. Her lawyer was <deleted>, but had to accept it and so court approval. 

 

That ex wife is still a good friend. She got a good deal and knew it, whilst I got to keep a reasonable life style and rebuild. 

 

Of course many divorces are very, very messy and emotionally charged. Luckily mine was not so bad. Think may be I should have stayed with her! 

[patongphil]

22 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Glad you found a good women but why is his comment crazy when you admitted your first Thai wife sounds basically insane.  I am sure she did not show those signs prior or else you would not have married her.

Women can turn quickly especially here where family and friends are number one. And once they have the house, cars, and motorbikes and know they can own 1/2 of your assets.

So. I guess the odds are 50-50?  Not great in my opinion...

 

 

What are the odds in your home country?

[Gabriel1]

Russell17au

Thanks for your comments.  They make a lot of sense except the judgement regarding my arrogant attitude.  I have never been arrogant with her.  When ever I brought up this subject she just completely tunes me out. I have been divorced previously in the USA.  My ex and I went to mediation and settled the matter for $1000 in fees.  This happened years ago when the average price of divorce in CA was $25K in no kids involved. As a matter of fact those involved in the process of the divorce said they had never experienced such an amicable divorce.  In this case, the woman involved transferred every asset she could to here name. When we moved all household items were stored in her parents home and not accessible to me. The large items were left in the home and the day we left she changed the code on the alarm system and refused to give the new code to me. We went to the USA because she wanted her citizenship, in spite of knowing the financial issues we would have. This woman is a pariya.  Lawyers are the least of the problem for me.  I can handle them. I have studied both Thai property civil code and family law code.  The Thai legal system is not based on issues, arguments and point of authority like the USA system, so things for me to learn there and only by experience. I will continue to find new strategies to do exactly what you are promoting.  

[Gabriel1]

Scouse123

My lawyer had no say in the action I took related to the judges recommendations.  I made that decision and not I am considering whether it was a poor decision.  I will find the judge, only 4 in central family court and talk with him. Thanks for you interest.

[Gabriel1]

bkk6060

Thanks for your comments.  50-50 does not necessarily apply.  The home was bought pre marriage.  We bought 2 cars and she did not put my name on the title only hers. I instructed her to include me on those titles.  When we sold the cars she, the thai speaker, handled the transaction and the money went into her private account.  lawyer told me that the 50-50 rule can be broken.  She can make a negative claim about me and ask the judge to compensate her for my poor treatment.  The court could award the entire home to her and we are taking a lot of money.  Thai law for divorce included undisputed and fault. I found at fault on of the litigants can really get screwed.

[Gabriel1]

Kalasin Jo

No doubt you were very lucky.  I had a similar divorce and we broke though.  However, there must be some moral integrity on the part of both litigants.  The main property in dispute could allow for both of us to buy a seperate home.  However, she has here name on the title and she is not giving an inch. I have an Asian friend that will coach me on the female Asian mind and how to work with that aspect of the case.  We will see, so far I am impressed with the advice. Maybe I will just move to the USA and take up residence in the home there with my wife and daughter.  We will see how that works out. Also, the USA Attorney's office just opened an office focused on nullification of naturalization if fraud can be shown.  That is a really big stick.  Thanks for the comments.

[thaibeachlovers]

When I got divorced I took what I could carry and lost everything else. Luckily I had learned the lesson not to buy property in LOS so my loss was in the thousands and not the millions.

I also never told her how much money I actually had and always implied I had little, so she agreed to a consensual divorce with no money changing hands.

So, my losses more than I like to think about but didn't lose all my money and no <deleted> lawyers involved.

 

IMO once lawyers involved a farang is always going to lose. IMO if OP can't get a negotiated settlement with ex walk away and take the loss, assuming it isn't in the multi millions. If it is, I pity the OP.

[thaibeachlovers]

PS I just read the posts the OP posted while I was writing my previous post. Seems the loss could be in the multi millions after all. OP has my sympathy, but given his wife's apparent lack of any morals sympathy is all I can give as it seems a big loss whatever he does.

 

Not for nothing do many posters advise never to marry a Thai, but IMO never marry anyone now, as it's fixed against men in the west.

[justin case]

18 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

I call bs (and on more than 1 post) but what ever floats your boat..

let's 

 

a- hope it never happens to you

b- if you don't have much, you cannot lose much

c- personally I was married 10+ years (don't know for OP)

d- psycho behavior of my ex really started once we moved TO thailand and she knew off course farang does not have rights, like owning land he paid for to build a house(s), farang vs thai in court, with lawyers that take advantage, thai rak thai court, no poiice enforcement, with an ex-wife that was the physical & mental abuser in the relationship, even with her own child !!!

 

but whatever, you believe him, me, others or not, does not change anything

[justin case]

On 3/1/2020 at 4:53 PM, SoSoCNX said:

Retainer fee is good for a lawyer buy not for a plaintiff.

There is plenty of lawyers with Thai and foreigners law degrees.  

Choose one that knows judge. You will pay more but you will get what you want. 

Wish You All the Best! 

Never Ever Marry Thai.

I once saw a website that showed off

 

if you want to hire us, we have Ex-judges, high ranking whatever, that you could / have to pay for a bigger chance of winning ???

 

because they know the correct people ? no need for your rights / wrong

 

I call this open corruption ...

[from the home of CC]

25 minutes ago, justin case said:

let's 

 

a- hope it never happens to you

b- if you don't have much, you cannot lose much

c- personally I was married 10+ years (don't know for OP)

d- psycho behavior of my ex really started once we moved TO thailand and she knew off course farang does not have rights, like owning land he paid for to build a house(s), farang vs thai in court, with lawyers that take advantage, thai rak thai court, no poiice enforcement, with an ex-wife that was the physical & mental abuser in the relationship, even with her own child !!!

 

but whatever, you believe him, me, others or not, does not change anything

 My comment relates to the veracity of the post, if you don't realize what this is then there's nothing to say.    

[bangkoken]

Great English speaking law firm in Bangkok. The Kingdom Law Group. Licensed & certified. The best around. Check out their website.

[CanuckThai]

3 hours ago, justin case said:

I once saw a website that showed off

 

if you want to hire us, we have Ex-judges, high ranking whatever, that you could / have to pay for a bigger chance of winning ???

 

because they know the correct people ? no need for your rights / wrong

 

I call this open corruption ...

 

This is the way the game is played.  Call it open corruption if you will, money talks in the east and/or the west. 

 

You're told by a lawyer: this can be fixed quickly for $50k, or fight the good fight, and let the wheels of justice take their tardy course, with a $4-5000 retainer (to start).   Risk analysis: $x assets at stake, $x support for x years, $x for opposing lawyer fees, your assets/cash potentially tied up/froze until settlement/agreement registered.  

[Gabriel1]

justin case

Justin, a short term neighbor of mine in Cambodia had a situation like that in Thailand.  He refused to pay his monthly fees because the management was not meeting reporting rules.  One day he came home and 2 senior Thai police force officers stopped him and told him he would be jailed if he did not pay up.  Apparently they skimmed the management fees and supported the corrupt management.  He hired a lawyer and nothing was happening.  Somehow a friend connected him to a lawyer who also was from a very powerful family.  the lawyer told him the police and the defendants were lifelong friends from school boy days and that is what was creating his impediment.  The new lawyer kicked ass and he won the case.  My friend moved back to Thailand. No matter what, in Thailand connections matter. My wife's father was best friends with the #2 guy in the national thai police and they dutifully pay their patronage fees on the appointed day. I am not done yet,  Thanks for you comments.

 

[Maestro]

Removed a troll post and the replies to it.