Irregular monthly deposit and combination for retirement extension

[CartagenaWarlock]

My friend asked me if it is allowed. I told him to post in this forum for knowledgeable people to answer. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by CartagenaWarlock

[ubonjoe]

It depends upon what you mean by irregular.

It would require 12 months of transfers into the country. 

The monthly amount would not matter but should not be a large variation every month since the total income for the year is what will be used to determine the amount needed in the bank to reach the 800k baht total of the 2.

[stouricks]

My IO told me that as long as the monthly and cash in the bank add up to over 800k he would accept it. Dunno about your IO, but I am happy with mine.

[Peter Denis]

10 minutes ago, stouricks said:

My IO told me that as long as the monthly and cash in the bank add up to over 800k he would accept it. Dunno about your IO, but I am happy with mine.

I always understood that it was not allowed to use a combination of the money-in-bank method and the monthly-income-transfer method.

But probably your IO is referring to the monthly-income-transfer method which requires you to provide evidence of

- a transfer of minimum 65.000 THB each and every month with foreign origins proven; and

- a grand total of minimum 800.000 THB from those 12 month transfers.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Peter Denis

[stouricks]

14 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I always understood that it was not allowed to use a combination of the money-in-bank method and the monthly-income-transfer method.

But probably your IO is referring to the monthly-income-transfer method which needs to prove

- a transfer of minimum 65.000 THB each and every month with foreign origins proven; and

- a grand total of minimium 800.000 THB of those 12 month transfers.

You understood wrongly. See Ubon Joe's no2  post

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by stouricks

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I always understood that it was not allowed to use a combination of the money-in-bank method and the monthly-income-transfer method.

But probably your IO is referring to the monthly-income-transfer method which needs to prove

- a transfer of minimum 65.000 THB each and every month with foreign origins proven; and

- a grand total of minimium 800.000 THB of those 12 month transfers.

The combination is still allowed for extensions based upon retirement. It does not matter if the income is proven by your embassy or monthly transfers into a Thai bank.

There is no requirement for the income to total 800k baht for the year. It is a minimum of 65k baht monthly that totals to 780k baht.

 

[Peter Denis]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The combination is still allowed for extensions based upon retirement. It does matter if the income is proven by your embassy or monthly transfers into a Thai bank.

There is no requirement for the income to total 800k baht for the year. It is a minimum of 65k baht monthly that totals to 780k baht.

Thanks for clarification, and good to know that the combo of both is indeed accepted.  

But since the methods are so different

> money-in-bank > min 800K balance during first 3 and last 2 months, and min 400K balance during 7 months in-between

> monthly-transfers > each and every month min 65K with origins proven

I would find it hard to actually combine them and come up with a scheme that would satisfy IO.

Any examples - or better still actual successful cases - of how this can be done?

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

But since the methods are so different

> money-in-bank > min 800K balance during first 3 and last 2 months, and min 400K balance during 7 months in-between

> monthly-transfers > each and every month min 65K with origins proven

I would find it hard to actually combine them and come up with a scheme that would satisfy IO.

Any examples - or better still actual successful cases - of how this can be done?

The combination option has different requirements than the money in the bank and income option.

There is no minimum income or minimum amount it the bank.

For example if the income was 50k baht a month only 200k baht in the bank for 2 months would be needed to reach a total of 800k baht. And then 200k baht in the bank for 3 months. Then the amount after the the 3 months is not clear but some offices have said half of the money would have to be in the bank.

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It depends upon what you mean by irregular.

I don't know exactly what he (my friend) meant. He seems to be familiar with general Thailand/Malaysia/Singapore retirement requirements more than me. He said he was doing research for the last 6-months. He has also visited Thailand numerous times as a tourist. His daughter lives in Singapore and he is now reluctant to travel to Singapore now as it is in the high risk country for Covid-19. I gave him the URL of this forum and told him to post as much details as possible for knowledgeable people in this forum to give some solid advice. He was interested in buying an Elite Visa (like me) and I asked him to explore retirement options as it is a few thousand dollar cheaper than Elite if one puts 800K BHT in a bank for perpetuity. Then he started babbling about bringing money to Thailand and I quite did not understand what he meant. I told him sure he had to bring money to live in Thailand. He said he would post in the forum tomorrow as it was getting late at night for him in the USA.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by CartagenaWarlock

[EricTh]

You need to put a minimum amount every month of 65000 baht. It can be irregular but minimum must be 65000.

 

I heard in this forum that some imm office don't accept combo anymore so you have to confirm with your office.

 

If you take combo option, it would be also be minimum amount every month taking into consideration how much cash you already have. Not very sure what formula they use.

 

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, EricTh said:

I heard in this forum that some imm office don't accept combo anymore so you have to confirm with your office.

The cases where they refused were when a person was using transfers into the country to prove their income and did not a full year of transfers into the country. People were still getting them when using proof of income from their embassy.

 

10 hours ago, EricTh said:

If you take combo option, it would be also be minimum amount every month taking into consideration how much cash you already have. Not very sure what formula they use.

The formula is easy. It is the total annual income subtracted from 800k baht to get the amount needed in the bank.

[earlinclaifornia]

12 hours ago, stouricks said:

You understood wrongly. See Ubon Joe's no2  post

 

Yes do listen to Ubon Joe. The key read is 12 monthly. Miss one by one day DISQUALIFIED

[stouricks]

4 minutes ago, earlinclaifornia said:

Yes do listen to Ubon Joe. The key read is 12 monthly. Miss one by one day DISQUALIFIED

No Earl, your foreign transfers IN can be a few days apart, but roughly better to be the same week each month. More importantly it must be shown as an FTT (Bangkok Bank) meaning Foreign Telegraphic Transfer, although there are some posts last year saying that their IO would accept it as long as you could show the 'paper trail' from abroad.

[EricTh]

47 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

 

The formula is easy. It is the total annual income subtracted from 800k baht to get the amount needed in the bank.

 

Sorry. Could you please give an example for combo method?

 

Let's say I have 400k tied up in the bank on a permanent basis.

 

What is the minimum monthly income transfer required?

 

What is the minimum amount required to be maintained at all times? Eg. for the 800k method, a minimum amount of 400k must be in the bank account at all times.

 

 

 

[jacko45k]

Just now, EricTh said:

 

Sorry. Could you please give an example for combo method?

 

Let's say I have 400k tied up in the bank on a permanent basis.

 

What is the minimum monthly income transfer required?

 

What is the minimum amount required to be maintained at all times? Eg. for the 800k method, a minimum amount of 400k must be in the bank account at all times.

 

 

 

Firstly the money should not be tied up.... it needs to be 'spendable'......

But of course leave it there to support your Extension  if you wish.

You will need to show 400,000 baht of income to reach the 800,000 requirement. 

 

[EricTh]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Firstly the money should not be tied up.... it needs to be 'spendable'......

But of course leave it there to support your Extension  if you wish.

You will need to show 400,000 baht of income to reach the 800,000 requirement. 

 

 

Unfortunately, immigration do require those who opt for 800k to maintain a 400k minimum at all times. It is NOT spendable.

 

So I am wondering whether it also apply to the combo method.

 

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Unfortunately, immigration do require those who opt for 800k to maintain a 400k minimum at all times. It is NOT spendable.

 

So I am wondering whether it also apply to the combo method.

 

Well I meant it is required to be in an account in your name only and accessible... but yes, you cannot spend it any more. Therein lies the contradiction...it is supposed to be money to support you living in Thailand, yet immigration will not let you use it!!!!

 

WRT the combi method, little info is out there to confirm since we have JUST reached the anniversary of the requirement. It has been mentioned here you may be required to maintain the money in proportion.... ie on a 400k deposit, 400k/3 months, 200k/7 months. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by jacko45k

[EricTh]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well I meant it is required to be in an account in your name only and accessible... but yes, you cannot spend it any more. Therein lies the contradiction...it is supposed to be money to support you living in Thailand, yet immigration will not let you use it!!!!

 

The 400k is meant to be used for emergency like someone having a serious illness or accident but that would mean he would no longer be able to renew his visa next year if he can't topup the minimum amount.

 

So I would think the combo method should have a similar requirement.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by EricTh

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

So I am wondering whether it also apply to the combo method.

You apparently did not read my earlier posts about it.

 

12 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The combination option has different requirements than the money in the bank and income option.

There is no minimum income or minimum amount it the bank.

For example if the income was 50k baht a month only 200k baht in the bank for 2 months would be needed to reach a total of 800k baht. And then 200k baht in the bank for 3 months. Then the amount after the the 3 months is not clear but some offices have said half of the money would have to be in the bank.

 

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

The 400k is meant to be used for emergency like someone having a serious illness or accident but that would mean he would no longer be able to renew his visa next year if he can't topup the minimum amount.

 

So I would think the combo method should have a similar requirement.

 

That was not the original intent of the 800k behind a retirement extension. It was to confirm a person had the means to live in Thailand. Since then, it has got a bit messy. 

 

[Peter Denis]

5 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Sorry. Could you please give an example for combo method?

Let's say I have 400k tied up in the bank on a permanent basis.

 

What is the minimum monthly income transfer required?

 

What is the minimum amount required to be maintained at all times? Eg. for the 800k method, a minimum amount of 400k must be in the bank account at all times.

UbonJoe provided an example of how the combination-method would work.

Let's assume that your foreign origin proven monthly income only amounts to 50.000 THB per month.

When APPLYING for the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, that would not be sufficient to comply with the monthly-income method which requires 65.000 THB. 

However, 12 monthly transfers would add up to 600.000 THB, and when using the combination method you would on top of the monthly 50.000 THB transfers also have to show 200.000 THB foreign origins proven on a thai bank-account.

When on an extension of that 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, the first 3 months that 200.000 THB needs to be maintained.  But for the period of 7 months that only require 400.000 THB (using the money in bank method), it is not clear what your local IO would accept.  As UJ writes some IO would then want to see half of the 200.000 THB kept for 7 months, and to be topped up again to 200.000 THB in the last 2 months of your permission to stay.  That makes sense, but of course better check with your local IO whether they allow the combo-method and if so what calculation method they apply.

 

 

[777mike]

Do you only need to prove your income to apply for the retirement visa or do you have to have payments into your Thai bank account (which has your cash portion of the 800k in it ) using the combination method ?

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, 777mike said:

Do you only need to prove your income to apply for the retirement visa or do you have to have payments into your Thai bank account (which has your cash portion of the 800k in it ) using the combination method ?

If you can prove a minimum of 65k baht income you do not need any money in the bank to apply for an extension of stay based upon retirement.

If you cannot meet the 65k baht requirement you can combine money in the bank with it to reach a total of 800k baht.

[Eocene]

53 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

If you can prove a minimum of 65k baht income you do not need any money in the bank to apply for an extension of stay based upon retirement.

How do I prove my income? I don't have any pension yet and don't intend to get SS till I am 70 to maximize payment. At present I draw $500 USD from my 401K account every week in the US for expenses and it would last me 25 years well past my 70-year for me to start drawing SS. I can send that amount ($500 USD/week) to a Thai bank. Can I show a US bank account where this money is deposited every week if they ask for income source? Will that be acceptable? If I deposit $500 USD every week (with currency fluctuation, let's assume that it's 15K BHT over 52 weeks. = or $780K. and then I can keep 20K BHT for a combination application or I can bump it up to 100K BHT to be on safe side? Can I show my paltry AirBnb income that fluctuates widely from month to month ($500 USD to $1500 USD) depending on occupancy rate, though I prefer to keep that income in the US for travel related expenses, US income taxes, and other US expenses when I go to the US or future purchase of a car or condo in Thailand. 

Also, is $500 USD/per week sufficient for living expenses in Thailand? 
Here are my estimates. Does it look OK? What am I missing?

 

Rent, utilities, internet, phone 25K (I may purchase a condo later with cash or on a HELOC using my home in the US) 

Health insurance 5K

Food & drinks 15K
Misc 5K

Motor cycle/car rental 10K (I may purchase a car and a motor cycle later with cash). 

I intend to stay in Pattaya (Jomtian) area. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Eocene

[Peter Denis]

29 minutes ago, Eocene said:

How do I prove my income? I don't have any pension yet and don't intend to get SS till I am 70 to maximize payment.

...
I intend to stay in Pattaya (Jomtian) area. 

Re the first part of your message > You need to be somewhat more precise about your situation and plans in order to get meaningful responses

The following info would be helpful:

• What's your age and are you married to a thai national?
• Do you intend to apply for your Visa in USA, in a thai neighboring country or in Thailand?
• Proving your income has 4 components > the amount required, the period required, foreign origin proven, source of income proven.  Also there are 4 methods that can be used (money-in-bank / monthly-income transfer / combination method / embassy letter < as US citizen the latter is not applicable in your case >. And all of these factors differ depending on category and type of Visa as well as were you will apply.

Re the 2nd part (expenses to be expected when living in Thailand) > Depends on your living pattern, but you can have a pretty good lifestyle on 15.000 THB a week.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Peter Denis

[ubonjoe]

45 minutes ago, Eocene said:

How do I prove my income? I don't have any pension yet and don't intend to get SS till I am 70 to maximize payment. At present I draw $500 USD from my 401K account every week in the US for expenses and it would last me 25 years well past my 70-year for me to start drawing SS. I can send that amount ($500 USD/week) to a Thai bank. Can I show a US bank account where this money is deposited every week if they ask for income source? Will that be acceptable? If I deposit $500 USD every week (with currency fluctuation, let's assume that it's 15K BHT over 52 weeks. = or $780K. and then I can keep 20K BHT for a combination application or I can bump it up to 100K BHT to be on safe side? Can I show my paltry AirBnb income that fluctuates widely from month to month ($500 USD to $1500 USD) depending on occupancy rate, though I prefer to keep that income in the US for travel related expenses, US income taxes, and other US expenses when I go to the US or future purchase of a car or condo in Thailand. 

You would need to show the equivalent of at least 65k baht going into a Thai bank every month. Sending $500 every week would not be enough at todays exchange rate. Best to let the $500 a week accumulate to do a monthly transfer of 65k baht (about $2100 today).

You could show proof of the source of your income by showing your 401k account if asked for.

You could also use the combination option if you could not meet the 65k baht requirements. If 60k a month then you would only need 80k baht in a bank to reach the total of 800k baht.

IMO $500 a week would be enough to live on in Pattaya/Jomtien dependent upon your livestyle.

[Max69xl]

16 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

I always understood that it was not allowed to use a combination of the money-in-bank method and the monthly-income-transfer method.

But probably your IO is referring to the monthly-income-transfer method which requires you to provide evidence of

- a transfer of minimum 65.000 THB each and every month with foreign origins proven; and

- a grand total of minimum 800.000 THB from those 12 month transfers.

The combination method is officially allowed, but some Immigration offices don't accept it if you don't have an income letter from your embassy/consulate. They think it's to much work to do the calculations based on bank statements. It's not, but that's their excuse.

[NoshowJones]

18 hours ago, stouricks said:

My IO told me that as long as the monthly and cash in the bank add up to over 800k he would accept it. Dunno about your IO, but I am happy with mine.

Yes, but is that person always going to be there? What happens when the next time you go to your IO and there is

a different officer who tells you different from the last one? It is certainly not uncommon.

[stouricks]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Yes, but is that person always going to be there? What happens when the next time you go to your IO and there is

a different officer who tells you different from the last one? It is certainly not uncommon.

I got him to write it down and stamp and sign it.

Ubon Joe and others seem to agree that as long as the total annual income plus your dosh in the bank is over 800k, Robert's your Father's brother. That's what the 'combination' method means.

Edited March 2, 2020 by stouricks

[earlinclaifornia]

7 hours ago, stouricks said:

No Earl, your foreign transfers IN can be a few days apart, but roughly better to be the same week each month. More importantly it must be shown as an FTT (Bangkok Bank) meaning Foreign Telegraphic Transfer, although there are some posts last year saying that their IO would accept it as long as you could show the 'paper trail' from abroad.

Why do you correct me about a few days apart. I didn't  write that ? Go look, I said 12 monthly deposits is needed. If your deposit falls into the next month, say as the bank delayed the deposit and no record of a deposit in that one month. Your DISQUALIFIED. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by earlinclaifornia