Britain tells the EU: we shall not sell out our fishermen

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Well you'd have to look at the context of the time, in the 1970s British manufacturing and industry began to fail and decline big time. The main reason the British decided to join was economic. They figured, correctly, that the advantages of a common market would be better for their economy.

 

That was the main consideration, not law, immigration...

 

But who knows, it's possible, especially if the East European immigration were highlighted, I don't think Germans loved this idea particularly. Whether it would be enough to lead to a full derailing of the EU membership at the time, well it clearly did with the Brexit referendum, but with a tiny margin.  Maybe in the 70s people were not that xenophobic yet.

 

In any event, as the very serious economic problems of the UK will worsen as Brexit goes on I have no doubt whatsoever that a Labour government will eventually give the British people this choice once again and it is very possible the British will again decide to join Europe.

"The British" were never given the chance of making the decision. There was no consideration. There was no referendum. 

 

If you are expecting a Labour government to join Europe in the future, then you are in for a really long wait. 

[Logosone]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you are expecting a Labour government to join Europe in the future, then you are in for a really long wait. 

 

Possibly, but let's not pretend that virtually half of the UK do not want Brexit, but instead prefer to be part of Europe. 

 

At some point it is conceivable that a Labour party leader will grasp this obvious chance and run an election on the basis of giving the people of the UK another referendum on joining the EU.

 

Most likely if the British were now given a choice, given the full economic implications that have become clear, the British would probably vote to join the EU again as soon as possible.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Maybe in the 70s people were not that xenophobic yet.

You have to be kidding with this part. Growing up in the 70s I thought 'bloodyforeigners' was one word ????

[Logosone]

Excellent point well made. 

 

I have to say when I watch 'Alf' I see the makers trying to be pro-foreigners. Alf is intended to be the ugly wrong choice not to be followed, even if he is the amusing one.

 

Anyway, it's a moot point, we won't change the past. But the future is a different matter.

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

Well you'd have to look at the context of the time, in the 1970s British manufacturing and industry began to fail and decline big time. The main reason the British decided to join was economic. They figured, correctly, that the advantages of a common market would be better for their economy.

 

That was the main consideration, not law, immigration...

 

But who knows, it's possible, especially if the East European immigration were highlighted, I don't think Germans loved this idea particularly. Whether it would be enough to lead to a full derailing of the EU membership at the time, well it clearly did with the Brexit referendum, but with a tiny margin.  Maybe in the 70s people were not that xenophobic yet.

 

In any event, as the very serious economic problems of the UK will worsen as Brexit goes on I have no doubt whatsoever that a Labour government will eventually give the British people this choice once again and it is very possible the British will again decide to join Europe.

In the unlikely event that Labour get in to Goverment and after they have  nationalise the following broadband, rail,water,electric, postal,service,energy network,private sector contracts,oil and gas companies and the rail network.

I am sure a Labour Goverment would want to join the EU as a net Beneficiaries, I am not sure the EU would want to accept membership from a country that might take out double the amount of funds that Poland currently receives 

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

If Scotland gets its independence and joins before the rest of the UK that would be 2 new members that would be net Beneficiaries, Hopefully the net Contributors have got very deep pockets 

[Logosone]

Oh don't worry, we will put such tariffs on British products there will be a new surplus.

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Oh don't worry, we will put such tariffs on British products there will be a new surplus.

And the Uk will reply in Kind regarding Tariffs, Hopefully Mercedes-Benz has found a new market for their cars since China car sales are down, Donald may put 25% tariffs on European Cars going to the states

 

 

[Logosone]

At a conservative estimate....taking the 4.3% figure of the Confederation of British Industry...and ignoring the significantly higher tariffs for some sectors...

 

With a value of British exports into the EU of 289 billion GBP.....

 

That would mean 12 billion GBP of tariffs.

 

Conservative estimate.

 

Almost to the pound the exact contribution of the UK to EU budget.

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

In theory. 

 

Back in reality no British government will ever want to upset the EU, given that the British financial sector will depend on continuous inspection and approval by the EU, and continuous renewal of equivalency.

 

The political reality is that the UK government won't do anything to curtail Romanian and Polish immigration. Indeed has done nothing to curtail it. Quite the contrary, it has opened all its doors to Romanians and Poles, and said 'come in without any need for visa whatsoever'.D

 

That's what is meant by political reality. You have no 'control'. You could not even control your own currency. The instruments available to the UK government are blunt, antiquated and  insufficient for the challenges of today.

 

And to cap it all the UK runs a system of free handouts which means it has to go to Germany, Japan and the US cap in hand every single year to beg for the money to finance its welfare state and handouts.

 

The UK is so powerless and without control you and your fellow Brexiteers wouldn't be able to sleep at night if you knew the truth.

 

No need to worry about Romanian and Polish , i have friends in the Civil Service that have advised me that once the coranavirus is out of the way they are planning to visit Thailand and Australia on a fact finding mission

my understanding is they want to look at the Thai and Australia immigration system for launching something in the UK along the lines of "Dob an overstayer" I think they would use Jaguar cars instead of BMW 5 series as smart cars and they are considering providing extra funding to local councils for the hire of thermal imaging cameras and spy planes and helicopters

Local council used thermal imaging cameras and spy planes a couple of years ago for checking beds in sheds

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2346759/Council-uses-spy-plane-thermal-imaging-cameras-catch-immigrants-living-illegally-garden-sheds.html

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

At a conservative estimate....taking the 4.3% figure of the Confederation of British Industry...and ignoring the significantly higher tariffs for some sectors...

 

With a value of British exports into the EU of 289 billion GBP.....

 

That would mean 12 billion GBP of tariffs.

 

Conservative estimate.

 

Almost to the pound the exact contribution of the UK to EU budget.

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....

You have forgotten the  UK imports from the EU were £357 billion

[Logosone]

my understanding is they want to look at the Thai and Australia immigration system for launching something in the UK along the lines of "Dob an overstayer" I think they would use Jaguar cars

 

Jaguar cars? Why would they use Indian cars? Shouldn't they use British cars?

 

Oh wait...

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Logosone

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

At a conservative estimate....taking the 4.3% figure of the Confederation of British Industry...and ignoring the significantly higher tariffs for some sectors...

 

With a value of British exports into the EU of 289 billion GBP.....

 

That would mean 12 billion GBP of tariffs.

 

Conservative estimate.

 

Almost to the pound the exact contribution of the UK to EU budget.

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....

Sadly the government will not be paying that. It will be the people of the UK and the EU.

Now Johnson will be laughing at all of this because of the extra tax revenue the government will get and the EU will ultimately not miss the UK's contribution because of the revenue they will get. 

So the only losers in all this will be the working class of both the UK and the EU.

 

Yeah Brexiteers. You really stuck it to the establishment. Are you sure you knew what you voted for?

 

[Loiner]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

As for deception, again the British were in no way deceived in the 1970s to join the common market. 

 

It was not possible to explain the implications of EU law primacy since even lawyers had to wait for case law to show what it really meant. I still remember sitting in constitutional law class and UK law professors exclaiming in shock how EU law actually had primacy over UK law. And to what extent. This only became clearer much much later.

 

So even the law professors were shocked at the primacy and its extent? That kinda shows the extent of the deception too. If they didn’t know, how could Joe Public who was lied to by the europhile politicians at the time. 
The deception continued while successive europhile politicians covered up the significance of the treaties they signed, while denying any opportunity of a public vote on their commitments to their EU masters. 
 

The EU have lapped it up ever since. At least they cannot do that now. Must be all absolutely bricking it, especially if the eventual reaction of the Europeans on this forum is any indication.  

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Yeah Brexiteers. You really stuck it to the establishment. Are you sure you knew what you voted for?

 

We certainly did and now it’s all coming good. 
We stuck it to the EU. 
We stuck it to the closet Europhile Tories. 
We stuck it to Jezza and Labour. 
We stuck it to the Remainers and the chattering classes. 
it will only get better. 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

Possibly, but let's not pretend that virtually half of the UK do not want Brexit, but instead prefer to be part of Europe. 

 

At some point it is conceivable that a Labour party leader will grasp this obvious chance and run an election on the basis of giving the people of the UK another referendum on joining the EU.

 

Most likely if the British were now given a choice, given the full economic implications that have become clear, the British would probably vote to join the EU again as soon as possible.

Yeah, fair enough, I can't pretend, judging by the GE result it's a lot less than "virtually" half now.

 

Recently it was seen that a Labour party leader made a complete balls up of his last chance to do...well....anything. Labour are out for a long lunch.

 

The full economic implications are not at all clear and they won't be until negotiations are complete with the EU and others. Maybe not for several years even then.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

You have forgotten the  UK imports from the EU were £357 billion

Oopsy!  ????

[TheDark]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yeah, fair enough, I can't pretend, judging by the GE result it's a lot less than "virtually" half now.

 

Recently it was seen that a Labour party leader made a complete balls up of his last chance to do...well....anything. Labour are out for a long lunch.

 

The full economic implications are not at all clear and they won't be until negotiations are complete with the EU and others. Maybe not for several years even then.

17.4 million voted for brexit. It was slightly above more than half. That's virtually half of the population.

 

Brexit has now been committed. It's time for brexiteers to bear the burden of leadership, which comes with responsibilities towards others. 

 

How the heck are you going to manage that? You are no longer able to hide behind 'but they are in power' sentiment. You are in power now.

[Laughing Gravy]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You have to be kidding with this part. Growing up in the 70s I thought 'bloodyforeigners' was one word ????

He obviously didn't get to see 'Love Thy neighbour" and Alf Garnet as they were just a few.

[Laughing Gravy]

8 hours ago, david555 said:

just a correction ….

"It's good to know you see the UK as leaders in thought  "chest knocking????" 

I would like to say what I see the Dutch as, especially as you have made your judgement on the UK. But I feel with words in the sentence like up, Garry, taking, passage, Germans and back.

 

It isn't worthwhile bothering.????

Edited March 6, 2020 by Laughing Gravy

[sanemax]

57 minutes ago, TheDark said:

17.4 million voted for brexit. It was slightly above more than half. That's virtually half of the population.

 

Brexit has now been committed. It's time for brexiteers to bear the burden of leadership, which comes with responsibilities towards others. 

 

How the heck are you going to manage that? You are no longer able to hide behind 'but they are in power' sentiment. You are in power now.

You read it here on TV first .

Everyone who voted Brexit is now the PM or part of the UK Government and all 17 million of us are in power 

  

[david555]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

You read it here on TV first .

Everyone who voted Brexit is now the PM or part of the UK Government and all 17 million of us are in power 

  

"17 million of us are in power "

 

On your own territory ..yes...

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, TheDark said:

17.4 million voted for brexit. It was slightly above more than half. That's virtually half of the population.

 

Brexit has now been committed. It's time for brexiteers to bear the burden of leadership, which comes with responsibilities towards others. 

 

How the heck are you going to manage that? You are no longer able to hide behind 'but they are in power' sentiment. You are in power now.

As you said yourself virtually half did not want Brexit. But things have moved on, so I would say that 'alf is now more like a "virtual" third.

 

If you haven't noticed, we are now finally being led. I only hope that it's not down the garden path. But being led we are.

 

I'm not hiding, you know where to find me, where I will be with my powerful friends. 

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would like to say what I see the Dutch as, especially as you have made your judgement on the UK. But I feel with words in the sentence like up, Garry, taking, passage, Germans and back.

 

It isn't worthwhile bothering.????

I thought elbow bumping was all the rage now?

 

And what's all this stuff from 555 about taking back passages? Might be an EU penchant but for the UK it's still all about taking back control. ???? 

[Logosone]

8 hours ago, Loiner said:

So even the law professors were shocked at the primacy and its extent? That kinda shows the extent of the deception too. If they didn’t know, how could Joe Public who was lied to by the europhile politicians at the time. 
The deception continued while successive europhile politicians covered up the significance of the treaties they signed, while denying any opportunity of a public vote on their commitments to their EU masters. 
 

The EU have lapped it up ever since. At least they cannot do that now. Must be all absolutely bricking it, especially if the eventual reaction of the Europeans on this forum is any indication.  

 

They did seem surprised that EU law had primacy and certainly to the extent that that was the case. Don't forget there were years of case law that actually established how far this went. It was one thing to read this in principle, but another for British courts to confirm that indeed EU law took precedence in certain areas.

 

Obviously there was no deception whatsoever, though, because if law professors could not anticipate the extent of primacy of EU law certainly Ted Heath would not have been able to. To explain the finer constitutional law points of EU law vs UK law would have gone right over the British electorate's head anyway. They would never have understood it. So no deception at all.

 

Why would the EU and Europeans be 'absolutely bricking it' though? Didn't you understand that the tariffs on UK goods would mean that the EU will take in almost exactly the same amount from the British which the British paid in while a member? Except this time there'll be no millions for infrastructure products in Wales to pay, no loss of business to British products which are now more expensive.

 

The EU is not in a weaker state without Britain. Quite the contrary. I actually hope more countries leave. If the really useless mouths to feed, like Greece, would leave would be even better. Romania and Poland can go too. Door is wide open.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Logosone

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Interestingly, President of the European Commission Ursula Von Der Layen is quite content for Greece to flout international law wrt refugees. 

You would have to be more specific on your reference to "flout".

If you are referring to the migrants from Turkey then you do not know if international law is being broken. Refugees can only cross one border, not transit. Only Turkish refugees would be allowed to cross into Greece so do you have proof that Turkish refugees are being refused access under international law, if not you should refrain from unjustified accusations.

[Logosone]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yeah, fair enough, I can't pretend, judging by the GE result it's a lot less than "virtually" half now.

 

Recently it was seen that a Labour party leader made a complete balls up of his last chance to do...well....anything. Labour are out for a long lunch.

 

The full economic implications are not at all clear and they won't be until negotiations are complete with the EU and others. Maybe not for several years even then.

 

Corbyn really did balls it up, a very poor politician. But perhaps labour will get a more politically savvy leader who is not afraid to commit at some point. Maybe they can get back to centrist policies as opposed to the quasi socialist nuttery they've been espousing which scared some people off. If they do and play the pro-Euro card, that could be their ticket back in.

 

Maybe not the full economic implications, but economic implications are certainly become clearer now. Ernst & Young have done a study which shows that 1.7 trillion GBP of assets and thousands of jobs have left the city. The UK is begging Europe for a speedy deliverance of equivalency, things will only get worse. That much is clear. The dreams of super-favourable economic conditions for new trade deals have been just that Disney Fantasy land. The substitution of over 50% of export market is easily done with the mouth, but not so easily in practice. More likely British firms will just continue to trade with Europe, but simply pay the premium in tariffs. Good for Europe, bad for the UK.

 

And when the British realise that they're now paying the same amount in tariffs, as they did in EU membership they will most likely curse Brexit every time they pay for Nutella, Tomatos, Mozarella or Bacon, spinach or chillies.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/aug/13/how-a-no-deal-brexit-threatens-your-weekly-food-shop

Edited March 7, 2020 by Logosone

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

They did seem surprised that EU law had primacy and certainly to the extent that that was the case. Don't forget there were years of case law that actually established how far this went. It was one thing to read this in principle, but another for British courts to confirm that indeed EU law took precedence in certain areas.

 

Obviously there was no deception whatsoever, though, because if law professors could not anticipate the extent of primacy of EU law certainly Ted Heath would not have been able to. To explain the finer constitutional law points of EU law vs UK law would have gone right over the British electorate's head anyway. They would never have understood it. So no deception at all.

 

Why would the EU and Europeans be 'absolutely bricking it' though? Didn't you understand that the tariffs on UK goods would mean that the EU will take in almost exactly the same amount from the British which the British paid in while a member? Except this time there'll be no millions for infrastructure products in Wales to pay, no loss of business to British products which are now more expensive.

 

The EU is not in a weaker state without Britain. Quite the contrary. I actually hope more countries leave. If the really useless mouths to feed, like Greece, would leave would be even better. Romania and Poland can go too. Door is wide open.

The Millions for infrastructure products in Wales to pay was paid for by the British taxpayer, if you have forgotten the UK has always being a net contributor. As for EU tariffs the EU will pay more to the UK than the UK will pay to the EU

Its strange normal after a divorce most people reduce their spending as they don't require as much money as they did before the divorce Not the EU it wants to increase its spending and the EU is divided into 2 camps the net contributors who feel they are already paying enough and the cohesion countries which want the eu budget increased as they are net beneficiaries and take out more than they ever pay in. Poland seems to be doing very well as part of the  net beneficiaries

[Logosone]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

He obviously didn't get to see 'Love Thy neighbour" and Alf Garnet as they were just a few.

I actually did see Alf Garnett. Very amusing. However, clearly the intention of the makers was to be pro-foreigners and show people like Alf up as figures of fun. Even if it is now politically incorrect, it had politically correct intentions at the time.

 

Same with Rigby, foreigners were shown as positive, whereas Rigby the racist was shown as the figure of fun.

[Logosone]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

but for the UK it's still all about taking back control. ???? 

Lol, you can't even control your own currency. What kind of control do you call telling Romanians and Poles 'Oh do come in lads, no visa needed, open doors'...

 

Yeah, you really got control of borders back. In your head maybe.

 

Not in reality.

 

The UK does not have the tools and muscle to control anything really. Not its own immigration, not its own currency and not even its own economy as a whole. Outproduced by Italy. Outproduced by India.

 

You don't even control your welfare state which you can only finance by going to the capital markets to borrow from Germany, Japan and the US.

 

You control nothing.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Logosone

[sandyf]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:27 AM, vinny41 said:

Access to each other’s markets

The UK is seeking tariff-free access to the EU market and for the EU to have tariff free access to the UK market

no adds on, no side deals merged into the main trade agreement

Tariff free access = EU alignment.

Greater divergence = Greater tariff.