Fear Vs Reality (Covid-19)

[JDGRUEN]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, it's not the case that SARS Cov2 (Covid19 is the illness) mutates rapidly. They've found quite the opposite actually, that SARS Cov2 mutates very little, as indeed is the case generally with coronaviruses when compared to influenza viruses. The Chinese study that suggested that Italy and Spain got a more virulent strain has been shown to be faulty, inaccurate and unreliable.

 

Also your mortality figures are completely false.

 

That is probably why you, falsely, think that the SARS Cov2 pandemic is more dangerous than past flu pandemics which is of course not the case. The flu pandemics had significantly higher mortality rates.

 

Thank you for posting some accuracy and logic instead of emotional blather

[Logosone]

Thank you for noticing.

[JDGRUEN]

10 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I'm wondering if that graph would look the same if it was fed data from Spain and Italy instead of GB.

Italy especially had or has a skewed population range of much older people than much of the rest of Western Countries. 

Aside from having a large elderly population that is part of the reason for a high Covid-19 death rate in Italy... Many Italians in Northern Italy sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese from Wuhan/Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct Wuhan flights. Result: Northern Italy is Europe’s hotspot for Wuhan Coronavirus. This factor of Chinese presence was actually spread in greater degrees all over Italy. Thus providing a jump start for a covid-19 epidemic in Italy. 

[Tony125]

1 hour ago, JDGRUEN said:

Italy especially had or has a skewed population range of much older people than much of the rest of Western Countries. 

Aside from having a large elderly population that is part of the reason for a high Covid-19 death rate in Italy... Many Italians in Northern Italy sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese from Wuhan/Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct Wuhan flights. Result: Northern Italy is Europe’s hotspot for Wuhan Coronavirus. This factor of Chinese presence was actually spread in greater degrees all over Italy. Thus providing a jump start for a covid-19 epidemic in Italy. 

A friend sent me this: 

Giacomino Nicolazzo is one of Italy’s most beloved writers. Born and raised in Central Pennsylvania, he lives in a small village in Lombardy where he writes his books.

 ITALY’S RECIPE FOR DISASTER

 

Many of the garment factories are in Milan and use Chinese workers. Milan had direct fights to Wuhan! Wonder why the outbreak. China has been buying factories and farmland in Africa, South American, Middle East, name a country and they are there.! They bring their own people to operate most of these operations?

Lombardy, Italy. As I sit here in my involuntary isolation, it was just reported that overnight 743 more people died and 5.249 new cases have been reported. This brings the total cases of infection to 69,176 and the body count to 6,820. We take relief in knowing that 8,326 people have recovered so far. (Numbers as of 3/24, 8:30pm in Italy.)
Most towns here in Italy, from the upper reaches of the Alps to the ancient shores of Sicilia and Sardinia, while not deserted, are closer to being ghost towns than the bustling centers of tourism, business and daily life they were just a few weeks ago.
Stores and shops have been shuttered. Restaurants and coffee shops no longer serve customers. Schools, universities, sporting arenas…even our museums and theaters…all closed. Even the Vatican City has closed its gates and armed patrols monitor the 20 foot tall walls that protect it!
Streets and roads are now empty for as far as the eye can see. Normally they would be filled with crazed Italian drivers in tiny cars and scooters (the ones that sound like demonic insects) darting here and there, reaching the limits of centrifugal force on our roundabouts. In the piazze of our towns and cities, there are now officially more pigeons than people.
Many of us know someone who has been infected and recovered. Some of us know someone who did not recover…now they are dead. But everyone knows someone who has been affected by this microscopic monster in one way or another.
Sixty millions of us are in lockdown…it is like a war zone here. We are being held prisoner in our own homes by an unseen enemy that sneaked in unnoticed…by most of us. As you will read in just a few more minutes, there were those who knew something like this was coming…or at least they should have.
So who is to blame? With all this craziness swirling like a whirlpool at our feet, I just had to find the blame answer. And so I have spent my free time (of which I have a lot in these days) digging and researching. I was literally shocked to discover how this has come to be.
I am not going to bore you with talk of Patient ‘0’ who spread it to Patient ‘1’ and how mathematics efficiently explains the rapid expansion of infection. No…I am going to tell you how (as I see it) the virus came to Italy.
It has everything to do with communists. Allow me to explain.
Beginning in about 2014, Matteo Renzi, the imbecile ex-mayor of Firenze (Florence) acting as the leader of the Partito Democratico (synonymous with the Italian Communist party), somehow managed to get himself elected as Italy’s Prime Minister. To give you a proper frame of reference, Matteo Renzi was so far left, he would make Barack Obama look like Barry Goldwater!
At the same time that Renzi was leading Italy into oblivion, strange things were happening in Italy’s economy. Banks were failing…but not closing. Retirement ages were being extended…for some reason the pension funds were dwindling or disappearing. The national sales tax we call IVA (Value Added Tax) rose from 18% to 20%, then to 21% and again to 22%.
And in the midst of all this financial chicanery, the Chinese began furiously buying up Italian real estate and businesses in the North.
Now the reason I mention Renzi and the Chinese together is that strange things were also going on between the governments of Italy and China. A blind eye was being turned to the way the Chinese were buying businesses in the financial, telecommunication, industrial and fashion sectors of Italy’s economy, all of which take place in Milano.
To be brief…China was getting away with purchases and acquisitions in violation of Italian law and EU Trade Agreements with the US and the UK…and no one in either of those countries (not Obama in the US or Cameron in the UK) said a thing in their country’s defense. As a matter of fact, much of it was hidden from the public in all three countries.
In 2014, China infused the Italian economy with €5 billion through purchases of companies costing less than €100 million each. By the time Renzi left office (in disgrace) in 2016, Chinese acquisitions had exceeded €52 billion. When the dust settled, China owned more than 300 companies…representing 27% of the major Italian corporations.
The Bank of China now owns five major banks in Italy…all of which had been secretly (and illegally) propped up by Renzi using pilfered pension funds! Soon after, the China Milano Equity Exchange was opened and much of Italy’s wealth was being funneled back to the Chinese mainland.
Chinese state entities own Italy’s major telecommunication corporation (Telecom) as well as its major utilities (ENI and ENEL). Upon entry into the telecommunication market, Huawei established a facility in Segrate, a suburb of Milano. It launched is first research center there and worked on the study of microwaves which has resulted in the possibly-dangerous technology we call 5G.
China also now owns controlling interest in Fiat-Chrysler, Prysmian and Terna. You will be surprised to know that when you put a set of Pirelli tires on your car, the profits are going to China. Yep…the Chinese colossus of ChemChina, a chemical industry titan, bought that company too!
Last but not least is Ferretti yachts…the most prestigious yacht builder in Europe. Incredibly, it is no longer owned by the Ferretti family.
But the sector in which Chinese companies invested most was Italy’s profitable fashion industry. The Pinco Pallino, Miss Sixty, Sergio Tacchini, Roberta di Camerino and Mariella Burani brands have been acquired by 100%.
Designer Salvatore Ferragamo sold 16% and Caruso sold 35%. The most famous case is Krizia, purchased in 2014 by Shenzhen Marisfrolg Fashion Company, one of the leaders of high-priced, ready-to-wear fashions in Asia.
Throughout all of these purchases and acquisitions, Renzi’s government afforded the Chinese unrestricted and unfettered access to Italy and its financial markets, many coming through without customs inspections.
Quite literally, tens of thousands of Chinese came in through Milano (illegally) and went back out carrying money, technology and corporate secrets.
Thousands more were allowed to enter and disappeared into shadows of Milano and other manufacturing cities of Lombardy, only to surface in illegal sewing shops, producing knock-off designer clothes and slapping ‘Made In Italy’ labels on them. All with the tacit approval of the Renzi government.
It was not until there was a change in the governing party in Italy that the sweatshops and the illegal entry and departure of Chinese nationals was stopped. Matteo Salvini, representing the Lega Nord party, closed Italy’s ports to immigrants and systematically began disassembling the sweatshops and deporting those in Italy illegally.
But his rise to power was short-lived. Italy is a communist country…socialism is in the national DNA. Ways were found to remove Salvini, after which the communist party, under the direction of Giuseppe Conte, reopened the ports. Immediately, thousands of unvetted, undocumented refugees from the Middle East and East Africa began pouring in again.
Access was again provided to the Chinese, under the old terms, and as a consequence thousands of Chinese, the majority from Wuhan, began arriving in Milano.
In December of last year, the first inklings of a coronavirus were noticed in Lombardy…in the Chinese neighborhoods. There is no doubt amongst senior medical officials that the virus was brought here from China.
By the end of January 2020 cases were being reported left and right. By mid-February the virus was beginning to seriously overload the Lombardy hospitals and medical clinics. They are now in a state of collapse.
The Far-Left politicians sold out and betrayed the Italian people with open border policies and social justice programs. One of the reasons the health care system collapsed so quickly is because the Renzi government (and now continued under the Conte government) redirected funds meant to sustain the medical system, to pay for the tens of thousands of immigrants brought in to Italy against the will of the Italian people.
If you remember the horrible earthquake that decimated the villages around Amatricia, in the mountains east of Rome in 2015, you would also remember how the world responded by sending millions of dollars to help those affected.
But there is a law in Italy that prevents private donations to charitable Italian organizations. All money and donations received must be turned over to a government agency, who in turn is to appropriate the funds as needed. But that agency is corrupt just as are all the others.
Most of the money never reached a single victim in the mountains. The Renzi government redirected the vast majority of those funds to pay for the growing immigrant and refugee costs.
As the economy worsened under the burden of illegal immigration, compounded by gross government spending and incompetence, unemployment rose quickly…especially among young people. The unemployment rate for men and women under age 35 is close to 40%.
So more money was diverted from the health care system and used to pay what is known here as guaranteed income. Whether you work or not you are paid here, especially if you belong to the PD! The government simply raises taxes on those who do work.
Let me give you a quick example of the height of insanity to which Italian taxation has risen. If you live in a building that has a balcony or balconies…and any of those balconies cast a shadow on the ground, you must pay a public shadow tax! I will say no more!
The point I am trying to make here is that not only did the Chinese bring the virus to Italy (and the rest of the world) it was far-Left politics and policies that facilitated it.
This should hopefully be a warning to Americans

[OneeyedJohn]

It's not about who to blame, really the world as a whole needs to find a solution.

[KhaoYai]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:27 AM, Liverpoolfan said:

Covid-19 is a killer. It kills those who are less able to fight it off, that is the reality. 

That viewpoint is rapidly diminishing. Your reality is wrong in fact, otherwise healthy people are dying here in the UK. The deaths of 2 nurses on the frontline of the fight against this disease were announced today, yesterday a 13 year old and a 19 year old - I believe they were both previously in good health. There are many more - those are just the ones that made the headlines,

 

This virus is highly contageous, more so than any of the others you mention. None of those resulted in worldwide lockdowns or the economic meltdown that is beginning.  This is the most serious situation the world has faced since WW2. Do you think countries would be spending trillions on a flu?

[Sharp]

Although any death is tragic I'm starting to ask myself where are the bodies (Not meaning to be morbid) 

But close to zero personal social media stories, pics, accounts of actual funerals or alike. 

I'm not saying it's not happening but something doesn't add up to me I guess time will tell. 

 

[Nyezhov]

12 hours ago, OneeyedJohn said:

It's not about who to blame, really the world as a whole needs to find a solution.

No, its about blame too. China lied, people died. More victims of communism. The world needs to wake up and treat this like it is, the first shot in a war, albiet not a hot one yet. 

[Tony125]

4 hours ago, Sharp said:

Although any death is tragic I'm starting to ask myself where are the bodies (Not meaning to be morbid) 

But close to zero personal social media stories, pics, accounts of actual funerals or alike. 

I'm not saying it's not happening but something doesn't add up to me I guess time will tell. 

 

Oh please, conspiricy man maybe one state or even country could fake news of a pandemic or terrorist attack but how do you get hundreds of countries to report Pandemic deaths from Covid19. They are not sending  reporters to take photos of dead bodies (too morbid) and in many places you cannot even attend a funeral as they don't want to spread the disese. Have seen photos from local US news of a boy being buried by men in hazmat suits, they wouldn't even let  his mother attend.

[rickudon]

It is the potential for death which is frightening. In the UK, in one month from the first death we now have 5,000. at that exponential death rate, you could have half the country dead by May, if it continued. Obviously it will  not happen, as you will run out of people to infect and not everybody dies. The control measures are also slowing it down. But by the end of April there will be over 20,000 dead, and it will not be fully controlled until at least June. what is the actual death rate? Seems to vary a lot between countries, but you can only count that once the epidemic is over (some of those currently infected will die). But if we take China as an example, death rate was 4% of those known to be infected. In Italy, currently over 10%. There are over 50,000 dead in Europe so far - nearly all in the last month.

 

Have to remember that most of the world has not caught it yet, and most of those are in under developed countries who cannot fight it once it takes hold in their countries. Final death toll will not be much different to Spanish flu, globally.

[JackGats]

On 4/2/2020 at 8:53 AM, CharlieH said:

500+ deaths in a single day in the UK, that sounds alot more serious than "the flu" to me.

The speed from infection to death in some cases is truly scary.

Not sure. 2008-2009 there were 13,000 deaths in the UK alone related to the flu.

[JackGats]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:01 AM, KhaoYai said:

That viewpoint is rapidly diminishing. Your reality is wrong in fact, otherwise healthy people are dying here in the UK. The deaths of 2 nurses on the frontline of the fight against this disease were announced today, yesterday a 13 year old and a 19 year old - I believe they were both previously in good health. There are many more - those are just the ones that made the headlines...

Not true. ALL casualties that young make the headlines big time. There's a reason for that.

 

In fact this virus is remarkably stubborn in its ageism. Much more so than the flu virus if I remember right.

[CharlieH]

17 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Not sure. 2008-2009 there were 13,000 deaths in the UK alone related to the flu.

Which equates to around 260 a day,, thats around HALF ! and current figures will rise not decrease as yet.

[pookondee]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:23 PM, Logosone said:

Things became many times better, indices went many times higher, than they were before Black Tuesday.

 

That's even assuming Covid19 and the reckless and incompetent government overreactions could have an impact like the Great Depression, which seems very unlikely. 

 

The Great Depression lasted for almost ten years.

 

Paul Tudor is saying that within months the markets will rally:

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/man-who-called-1987-crash-says-be-careful-not-to-mythologize-coronavirus-into-a-pandemic-godzilla-predicts-stocks-will-rebound-in-a-few-months-2020-03-26

 

This is the man that correctly predicted the 1987 crash.

Our current scenario is lot different than the worst of depressions. 

In the past folks werent prevented from keeping and running business and folks werent banned from even going outside.

 

What is happening now is the ridiculous virus of fear being spread to all and sundry, first from the media and now going rife through governments, all trying to outdo each other with more restrictions on simply living.

 

I dont have any confidence in the stock market bounce back theory either, im sorry to say.

Many are ma and pa investors, who, without incomes are gonna be needing every cent they can muster, just to survive.

 

They certainly wont be putting their cash in anything that has even the slightest smell of risk.

 

And if the present panic buying and hoarding on goods is anything to go by, people will also be hoarding money in the same way.

money that might be needed just to survive.

 

Our idiot economists and bankers are largely the blaim for this and the cรap that is surely about to happen.

 

They lowered interest rates to zero, encouraged everyone to borrow and be in debt, while slowly draining peoples savings..

All in the name of trying to achieve financial "growth" and trying to stimulate economies.

 

Well, they made the bed and now they will have to lie in it.

Lets see how the financial sector handles it when theres no money coming in for them.

[transam]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

Not sure. 2008-2009 there were 13,000 deaths in the UK alone related to the flu.

Yes but, the bug we are dealing with is 10 times more contagious than the yearly flu, which has been shown by the numbers of folk being hit, plus this bug attacks the lungs waaaay harder, so not only the old folk, with life long lung work, the young lungs are being tested too.

 

[englishoak]

we are all as clueless as those working on a solution, things they are finding can help but its too early to call any vaccine useful. 

 

Every paper so far has failed to be conclusive, some scientists arnt sure its a virus anymore let alone how it actually works...take the lungs for instance, it seems to effect both to roughly the same degree, thats not like any normal viral attack. as one would very normally be much worse than the other, with covid19 both are hit most of the time to roughly the same degree. The Virus also looks and seems identical to something the body produces called exsomes.

 

One latest theory is the red blood cells are impaired from carrying oxygen in them whilst also leaking Iron ions out into the body.. a combination in lack of oxgen being delivered to organs whilst a build up of toxins poisons the body .. also findings that blood type is relative, A seems to be more susceptible than 0... the malaria drug  appears to help if administered early enough as it acts like an armour coating on red blood cells. Later stages its too late to be of much use... extremely high doses of Vitamin C seem to help some though no papers are conclusive as yet.. Stress along with other immunity issues and conditions along with age is a huge factor, high vit D and a meat/high zinc diet seem they might also help... smokers seem to get it less but when they do are hit worse, ex smokers more often get it than smokers and display worse symptoms even more often, Men are 3x as likely to get it. 

 

So much is variable, its a real mean little honey badger.

 

Stay safe out there,stay positive, well nourished and rested.   

[JackGats]

2 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Which equates to around 260 a day,, thats around HALF ! and current figures will rise not decrease as yet.

I would have thought the figures were for the 2008-2009 flu season, say from November through March. Not for 24 months.

[JackGats]

If you think Covid is taking its toll on the young, look at this:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/health/child-flu-deaths-105/index.html

[Tony125]

New Zealand isn’t just flattening the curve. It’s squashing it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-zealand-isnt-just-flattening-the-curve-its-squashing-it/ar-BB12gstI?li=BBnb7Kz

[JDGRUEN]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:01 AM, KhaoYai said:

That viewpoint is rapidly diminishing. Your reality is wrong in fact, otherwise healthy people are dying here in the UK. The deaths of 2 nurses on the frontline of the fight against this disease were announced today, yesterday a 13 year old and a 19 year old - I believe they were both previously in good health. There are many more - those are just the ones that made the headlines,

 

This virus is highly contageous, more so than any of the others you mention. None of those resulted in worldwide lockdowns or the economic meltdown that is beginning.  This is the most serious situation the world has faced since WW2. Do you think countries would be spending trillions on a flu?

You are exaggerating and embellishing this Corona Virus impact. Killer Virus - what 28 dead in Thailand since early January. Please go take a look at statistics for - YES the Flu. Brushing the Flu off without looking at the real stars is juvenile. H1N1 - Swine Flu had the following:  

 

   THAILAND: first week of February 2010, the Department of Epidemiology announced the second wave of the outbreak. From 3 May 2009 to 10 March 2010, the accumulated number of confirmed H1N1 flu patients totaled 35,446 persons. The number of deaths amounted to 208 persons, 105 males and 113 females.

 

Does anyone even remember? 

 

Worldwide the H1N1 stats are quite sobering. 

 

Covid-19. Has had 28 deaths in 3 months x 4 = 112. And the death rate is likely to be less than 28 each 3 months in this next 9 months. 

Italy was a total anomaly. Aside from having a large elderly population that is part of the reason for a high Covid-19 death rate in Italy... Many Italians in Northern Italy sold their leather goods and textiles companies to China. Italy then allowed 100,000 Chinese from Wuhan/Wenzhou to move to Italy to work in these factories, with direct Wuhan flights. Result: Northern Italy is Europe’s hotspot for Wuhan Coronavirus. The full Chinese presence in Italy was / is many times what I posted above 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by JDGRUEN
Number correction and more fully answer