USA now think better to wear mask.

[rabas]

28 minutes ago, Logosone said:

A coronavirus virion (particle) is spherical, averaging around 125 nanometers in diameter. Compare that to bacteria’s 1,000-nm size. It’s a grape compared to a grapefruit. A surgical mask whose purpose is to block bacteria will do little to prevent passage of the smaller coronavirus particle. 

 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90483762/why-masks-arent-better-at-protecting-us-from-viruses

Your own article agrees with me that N95 masks that I quote work well:  "That’s why N95 masks, which block 95% of all airborne particles, are the gold standard in hospitals treating COVID-19 patients. They have a much more selective filter."

 

You correctly state a coronavirus is ~.125um. What you don't mention is that these masks block 0.125um particles better than they block  0.3um particles. In fact, 0.3um particles have maximum penetration power, which is why masks are rated for 0.3um.

 

Why? Below 0.3 um Brownian motion, collisions of fast air molecules, push small particles about so they don't fly straight and are more easily captured. So the idea a virus penetrates better because of their size is not correct. Anyway, most viruses are part of larger drops or goop.

 

When properly worn, N95 masks and above work well to block viruses from entering the airways.

 

IOW, Yinn is right.

 

[tropo]

48 minutes ago, Yinn said:

I not listen to Adams

i listen to the Virus Expert Doctor Anthony Fauci

You missed the point. You are misrepresenting what is stated in the article you presented to make your point.

 

Doctor Anthony Fauci, whom I listen to in his daily briefs at the White House, did not say we should wear a mask as you suggested he said. That was your interpretation.

 

This is what he said:

===================================================================================================

Quote: (directly from the article you linked)

 

“The idea of getting a much more broad, community-wide use of masks outside of the health care setting is under very active discussion at the task force. The CDC group is looking at that very carefully,” Fauci told CNN.

 

“The thing that has inhibited that a bit is to make sure that we don’t take away the supply of masks from the health care workers who need them,” he continued. “But once we get in a situation where we have enough masks, I believe there will be some very serious consideration about more broadening this recommendation of using masks.”

 

Fauci cautioned that while “we’re not there yet,” he said he believed the task force was “close to coming to some determination” soon on whether to expand the administration’s recommended mitigation measures to include masks.

 

“Because if, in fact, a person who may or may not be infected wants to prevent infecting someone else, one of the best ways to do that is with a mask. So perhaps that’s the way to go,” he said, adding that the subject was “under very active consideration” and would be raised at the task force’s meeting on Tuesday afternoon.

=================================================================================================

It is quite clear that the matter is still under consideration and Fauci did not say, as you said, that we "should wear masks".

 

 

[Logosone]

21 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

Where did you get the notion that Germany is the most successful country fighting Covid-19?

 

Infection / 1 million population:

 

Germany 931

Czech 337

South Korea 195

Japan 19

Taiwan 14

Thailand 27

 

and if you don’t trust the infection numbers due to lack of testing, how about the number of deaths per 1 million population:

 

Germany 11

Czech 4

South Korea 3

Japan 0.5

Taiwan 0.2

Thailand 0.2

 

 

 

As I explain above the infection numbers are inaccurate. Germany conducts 500,000 tests a week. Therefore it finds more cases. You can't go by 'identified' case numbers, by that measure Zimbabwe is the most successful country because it identifies no cases because it doesn't test.

 

You look at the mortality rate not by population but as a percentage of identified cases. 

 

As you see here only Austria and Norway have a lower mortality rate. Therefore Germany is the most successful of the major countries in fighting Covid 19:

 

 

[Gulfsailor]

15 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Thanks for posting this, it is actually an interesting review.

 

It is scathing about the quality of the majority of the studies which it reviews, however, then goes on to conclude that because of a slightly higher cumulative number of studies saying a mask works than ex measure therefore masks work.

 

One does get the sense that this is not an actual but a review of many studies, many concerned with influenza not the SARS Cov2 virus.

 

I also find it odd that it says:

 

"A tiny study comparing the N95 respirator with paper surgical masks in volunteers found that surgical masks, even when worn in multiple layers (up to five), filtered ambient particles poorly (Derrick 2005); this principle was confirmed in another small study of air filtration to prevent droplet spread (Somogyi 2004)."

 

But then goes on to say there is no difference between a surgical and a N95 mask in effectiveness.

 

Still, very interesting.

A surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it protects others from the wearer. So it may not be good at filtering ambient particles, it does significantly reduce the spread of particles from ones mouth to the ambient air. So if we both wear a mask, my mask protects you, and your mask protects me. Especially with viruses that are transmitted before symptoms show, it is important for everyone to wear masks. 

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, Yinn said:

I am not in your village.

 

you tell them. 

 

Not be be scared na.

Wrong quote

Edited April 2, 2020 by EVENKEEL

[Yinn]

14 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Lol, of course a country that conducts 500,000 tests a week will find more cases. That is a measure of success, you're not getting it all, Yinn!

 

Germany is conducting more tests than any country in the world, 500,000 tests, and therefore finding more infected than any other country. It is isolating those infected.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/03/26/world/europe/26reuters-health-coronavirus-germany-tests.html

 

Now, you don't look at a case numbers, okay, because by that measure Zimbabwe is the most successful country as it, supposedly, has zero cases. Because it does not do testing. 

 

You look at the mortality rate. Even though Germany has been testing the most, and therefore identified more cases than most, it still has the lowest mortality rate of all major countries. The only countries with lower mortality rates are mini-countries like Austria (which is Germany anyway) and Norway, they don't count. If you look at the table below you will see that where it counts, mortality rate, Germany is the leading nation of all the major countries, in fighting Covid19.

 

 

 

 

Pffft

That graph two week ago.

march 17 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

"It gives a false sense of security even though it virtually does not help at all," the head of the National Association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians, Andreas Gassen, told the Handelsblatt newspaper."

Hey boys and girls, let's specifically define what we're discussing. Are you a spreader or a spreadee of Corona? The above quote is addressed to spreadees, i.e., a healthy person with the potential for catching Corona from a spreader. And its the spreaders that the most recent CDC addresses about masks. Their worry: 25% of Corona infected folks are asymptomatic but can spread the disease with an uncovered cough or sneeze. So, maybe everyone feeling fine should wear a mask, just to preclude those 25% of feeling fine spreaders from spraying their surroundings with contaminated droplets.

I suspect the reason for not yet going full tilt with this is because of the fear about adding to the mask shortage, to include the more expensive and efficient masks used by medical personnel.

Anyway, this 'no need to wear a mask' argument may make sense when only the spreadees are being addressed. But, when we now know about all those spreaders walking around that feel healthy -- yeah, please do wear a mask.

[tropo]

7 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

A surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it protects others from the wearer. So it may not be good at filtering ambient particles, it does significantly reduce the spread of particles from ones mouth to the ambient air. So if we both wear a mask, my mask protects you, and your mask protects me. Especially with viruses that are transmitted before symptoms show, it is important for everyone to wear masks. 

How about some eye protection too. 

 

https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/coronavirus-covid19-eye-infection-pinkeye

 

 

[Gulfsailor]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

As I explain above the infection numbers are inaccurate. Germany conducts 500,000 tests a week. Therefore it finds more cases. You can't go by 'identified' case numbers, by that measure Zimbabwe is the most successful country because it identifies no cases because it doesn't test.

 

You look at the mortality rate not by population but as a percentage of identified cases. 

 

As you see here only Austria and Norway have a lower mortality rate. Therefore Germany is the most successful of the major countries in fighting Covid 19:

 

 

You are cheating with the numbers. First you don’t accept that some counties have a very low infection rate due to lack of testing, which is a fair argument, but then you use those exact numbers as the denominator to calculate the death rate and claim that this is the most important statistic. There is no reason to believe that 1 developed country’s death rate would be significantly better or worse than another’s at this point. Maybe at the peak, you’ll see differences due to lack of ICU beds or ventilators. 

 

So the only thing we can look at now on how well a country is doing in regards to stopping this outbreak, is to look at the number of deaths per 1m. Population, as that takes out the testing variable. And that shows Asian and also European countries where many people wear masks are doing much better at stopping the spread than countries where people don’t wear masks, such as Germany. 

[Justgrazing]

4 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

avoind my "friends", most of who are imaginary anyway

 the feelings may be mutual Nyez .. ☺

[Logosone]

18 minutes ago, rabas said:

Your own article agrees with me that N95 masks that I quote work well:  "That’s why N95 masks, which block 95% of all airborne particles, are the gold standard in hospitals treating COVID-19 patients. They have a much more selective filter."

 

You correctly state a coronavirus is ~.125um. What you don't mention is that these masks block 0.125um particles better than they block  0.3um particles. In fact, 0.3um particles have maximum penetration power, which is why masks are rated for 0.3um.

 

Why? Below 0.3 um Brownian motion, collisions of fast air molecules, push small particles about so they don't fly straight and are more easily captured. So the idea a virus penetrates better because of their size is not correct. Anyway, most viruses are part of larger drops or goop.

 

When properly worn, N95 masks and above work well to block viruses from entering the airways.

 

IOW, Yinn is right.

 

No, it doesn't:

 

"But even N95 masks are flawed. Before coronavirus, my team and I investigated whether N95 masks could be a viable alternative to standard surgical masks. Interviews with doctors and nurses at several hospitals at the time revealed that N95 masks were rarely used or supplied. The overwhelming majority of healthcare workers I spoke with had never worn one. They are more expensive than surgical masks, they’re harder to breathe in, and medical workers deemed them unnecessary for most procedures."

 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90483762/why-masks-arent-better-at-protecting-us-from-viruses

[White Christmas13]

12 minutes ago, Logosone said:

As I explain above the infection numbers are inaccurate. Germany conducts 500,000 tests a week. Therefore it finds more cases. You can't go by 'identified' case numbers, by that measure Zimbabwe is the most successful country because it identifies no cases because it doesn't test.

 

You look at the mortality rate not by population but as a percentage of identified cases. 

 

As you see here only Austria and Norway have a lower mortality rate. Therefore Germany is the most successful of the major countries in fighting Covid 19:

 

 

you forgot that that US has more than 5100 deaths ?

[Gulfsailor]

1 minute ago, Yinn said:

Pffft

That graph two week ago.

march 17 

Germany’s case fatality rate is so low because they test so much. 

Take for example The Netherlands where only symptomatic people who end up in hospital are being tested. The real infection numbers are likely 10 times higher. Use that adjusted figure as the denominator in the CFR calculation and the CFR in Holland would be 10 times lower and the same as Germany’s. 

[JimGant]

3 minutes ago, tropo said:

How about some eye protection too.

Gulfsailor's post was strictly addressing spreaders, not spreadees. Please note the difference. But, if you prefer to concentrate on the latter, wear goggles.

[Yinn]

Is wear mask difficult for you?

156 die yesterday.

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

You are cheating with the numbers. First you don’t accept that some counties have a very low infection rate due to lack of testing, which is a fair argument, but then you use those exact numbers as the denominator to calculate the death rate and claim that this is the most important statistic. There is no reason to believe that 1 developed country’s death rate would be significantly better or worse than another’s at this point. Maybe at the peak, you’ll see differences due to lack of ICU beds or ventilators. 

 

So the only thing we can look at now on how well a country is doing in regards to stopping this outbreak, is to look at the number of deaths per 1m. Population, as that takes out the testing variable. And that shows Asian and also European countries where many people wear masks are doing much better at stopping the spread than countries where people don’t wear masks, such as Germany. 

It's fair to say that with some countries there are significant doubts about the figures. I'm not just talking about Thailand, whose figures are not worth the paper they're written on, but even the UK.

 

"The UK's coronavirus death toll is higher than official figures show as the current statistics only include those who have died in hospital. Today, the true numbers will be revealed after the Government admitted that the 1,415 fatalities so far recorded in Britain are not the actual number. Daily figures recording the pandemic's death toll have shown a growing time lag approaching up to three weeks."

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8170065/UKs-coronavirus-death-toll-HIGHER-official-figures.html

 

However, I would say that comparing the mortality rate figures between South Korea and Germany would be reasonable, since one can probably trust the figures for those two countries.

 

I think you will find that, even as of today, the mortality rate of Germany is half that of South Korea.

 

 

[tropo]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Gulfsailor's post was strictly addressing spreaders, not spreadees. Please note the difference. But, if you prefer to concentrate on the latter, wear goggles.

Please chill. The focus in on both.

Edited April 2, 2020 by tropo

[Logosone]

10 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Pffft

That graph two week ago.

march 17 

Okay, let's compare the mortality rates of any country of your choice that has more than 1000 cases as of today, using Johns Hopkins Yinn.

 

You will see Germany has the lowest mortality rate of any of the major countries, including South Korea.

 

It is the most succcessful country in fighting Covid19 today.

 

There is no other country that is as successful as Germany in keeping mortality rates down.

[Mattd]

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52126735 

 

It is debatable whether wearing a mask if you are healthy will stop you from catching the virus.

One of the main reasons a lot of people wear them is because they think it will, personally I have no problem with this if it makes them feel better, but it does give a false sense of security and most available masks do not seal the nose and mouth and are handled incorrectly.

However, it does show the way hype affects somebody's thinking and attitude, whereby the people wearing the mask think that this will protect THEM from catching the virus, it is fact that most masks are not worn to protect other people.

A mask can be considered as PPE and yet inexplicably a big percentage of the Thai people that wear a mask will not think twice about jumping on to a motorbike without putting a crash helmet on, where statistically they have far more chance of being killed or badly injured.

 

Another interesting article, which sets some perspective, something sadly missing right now:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51979654

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

A surgical mask does not protect the wearer, it protects others from the wearer. So it may not be good at filtering ambient particles, it does significantly reduce the spread of particles from ones mouth to the ambient air. So if we both wear a mask, my mask protects you, and your mask protects me. Especially with viruses that are transmitted before symptoms show, it is important for everyone to wear masks. 

Thank you for posting the above, I don't get it why some don't get this very simple proposition. 

The authorities know the above, and IMO the only reason why wearing masks is not mandatory , is because they are not available to everyone, and they want them available for those at high risk such as hospital workers etc.

I am convinced that if this virus persists and face masks become more widely available they will become mandatory to wear in public, because it would reduce the transmission rate by that factor.

 In the absence of an effective treatment and/or inoculation, the only way forward is reducing the transmission rate. If such transmission rate can be reduced  to below 1:1 the virus will  die out on it's own. 

 

[Gulfsailor]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Okay, let's compare the mortality rates of any country of your choice that has more than 1000 cases as of today, using Johns Hopkins Yinn.

 

You will see Germany has the lowest mortality rate of any of the major countries, including South Korea.

 

It is the most succcessful country in fighting Covid19 today.

 

There is no other country that is as successful as Germany in keeping mortality rates down.

Would you enlighten me how you calculate the ‘mortality rate’?

[DrTuner]

Asian countries did many other measures at the same time as masks. It's not clear how effective each component is.

 

That ssif, I think it could be possible to increase effectiveness by writing "infected?" on the mask. Does wonders to the social distance.

[JimGant]

Just now, tropo said:

Please chill. The focus in on both.

Fine. Request you differentiate between the two, 'cause the arguments for and against are quite different for each, i.e, in your example, a spreader would not need eye protectors to prevent the spread (well, ok, maybe if he cried on your shoulder...).

[tropo]

4 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Is wear mask difficult for you?

156 die yesterday.

I wear a mask to placate people like you. I'm more scared of people like you than contracting the virus - so I bought the only mask available to me - some paper masks and a cotton rewashable one. That should keep the crusaders like you off my back.

 

Forget about Germany for a moment and focus on your own country:

 

12 people died in Thailand in 2 months. That's one person every 5 days in a country where about 1600 die per day of all causes. 

 

 

Thailand didn't end up with this amazingly low mortality rate due to anything they have done as they were very slow to react. They also had more contact with Chinese tourists than most other countries.

 

However, it is reason enough to destroy their economy. I see the fear mongering on Thai TV... they even have songs "the virus is scary...."

 

Well, you scare me, and the destruction of the economy scares me. I don't lose any sleep over contracting the virus.

 

[Logosone]

19 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

You are cheating with the numbers. First you don’t accept that some counties have a very low infection rate due to lack of testing, which is a fair argument, but then you use those exact numbers as the denominator to calculate the death rate and claim that this is the most important statistic. There is no reason to believe that 1 developed country’s death rate would be significantly better or worse than another’s at this point. Maybe at the peak, you’ll see differences due to lack of ICU beds or ventilators. 

 

So the only thing we can look at now on how well a country is doing in regards to stopping this outbreak, is to look at the number of deaths per 1m. Population, as that takes out the testing variable. And that shows Asian and also European countries where many people wear masks are doing much better at stopping the spread than countries where people don’t wear masks, such as Germany. 

You're the one who's cheating with the numbers.

 

I note you did not provide a link for your deaths in population figures. So I had a look and found that according to the website that you used, and by the measure that you used, the most successful country in fighting Covid19 would be Nigeria:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

 

Obviously that method is completely useless.

[tropo]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Fine. Request you differentiate between the two, 'cause the arguments for and against are quite different for each, i.e, in your example, a spreader would not need eye protectors to prevent the spread (well, ok, maybe if he cried on your shoulder...).

Are we here to win arguments? 

 

I merely mentioned, in passing, that the virus can enter via the eyes and you want to make a big song and dance over it.

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, drbeach said:

Nothing wrong with choosing to wear a mask, a big problem if trying to mandate it.

 

Americans know what their civil rights are. Thais don't realize they have civil rights, hence are easy to control and will do what those in power tell them to do. Make no mistake, a nationwide mask wearing law will get nowhere in the States, Yinn.

 

Big cultural difference. Hence why I'm proud of being a westerner and am glad I'm not Thai, because this aspect of our culture, is definitely better than the 'follow the leader' lemming attitude of Thai/Asian cultures.

 

That being said, there are good aspects of Thai culture too. Just not this one.

You have to be kidding or high as... Thais don't need to understand "civil rights" in the U.S. sense to do whatever they like. Thai's disregard of rules and doing there own thing makes the USA look like a nanny state of complete conformists.

[Logosone]

18 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

Would you enlighten me how you calculate the ‘mortality rate’?

Certainly. 

 

Using the Johns Hopkins dashboard you check the number of cases for Germany (not obviously 100% accurate but more accurate than any other country's), then you take the deaths as a percentage. You get a mortality rate of 1.19%

 

Compare this to South Korea, perhaps the only other country with half-way credible figures, like Germany. You get 1.69%

 

So even with yesterday's unusually large increase in the death figure for Germany you will see that Germany's mortality rate is considerably lower than South Korea's.

 

In South Korea mask wearing is common, in Germany is not. Therefore in terms of Covid19 mask wearing would not seem to make any difference whatsoever.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Logosone

[Logosone]

26 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Is wear mask difficult for you?

156 die yesterday.

Look, I have already shown you above that, as of today, even taking the unusually large increase in deaths yesterday Germany has a mortality rate that is considerably lower than South Korea's or any other major Asian country where mask wearing is common.

 

The German health minister and top German doctors are saying that wearing masks is not helpful and can be counter-productive.

 

And yes, I don't like wearing masks, it's hot on the face, it makes breathing harder and the only ones that supposedly work, N95, are so tight they rip your ears off.

 

If you want to wear masks you're very welcome to do so. But stop all the Mask Tyrants in Thailand who are assaulting people like we saw with the terrible case of Jim Luce that is now trending on the Internet. It's getting ridiculous.

 

 

 

[Gulfsailor]

20 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You're the one who's cheating with the numbers.

 

I note you did not provide a link for your deaths in population figures. So I had a look and found that according to the website that you used, and by the measure that you used, the most successful country in fighting Covid19 would be Nigeria:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

 

Obviously that method is completely useless.

I used Worldometer as my source. 

I only listed countries with a similar development status. So I did not include countries such as Nigeria and this never claimed that it is the most successful at fighting the outbreak. I consider Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore and specifically Taiwan as the most successful. Plenty of testing there, almost no lockdowns, and still a very low death rate by size of population. Just look at the rich countries on the list where people wear masks, versus where they don’t. It can’t get any clearer than this.