Drug championed by Trump for coronavirus shows no benefit, possible harm in study awaiting validation

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

LOL, "All the negatives have been left out, so scientifically worthless and a one-sided summary."  There's evidence of hypocrisy in that statement as your posts re Trump to date leave all the positives out, so worthless as they're a one-sided view point.

 

I get the feeling that you're trying to skate on this one so please, when you do get back in front of your PC do show proof that this summary was produced by conspiracy theorists.

Thanks, glad to hear you're comparing my posts here to a so-called scientific study.

 

As I said, superfluous, just look at their other publications, I have given you those already. Questioning science is good, but has to be done on a scientific basis, and that is totally lacking here.

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

  

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

  

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

All the negatives have been left out, so scientifically worthless and a one-sided summary.

And yes, conspiracy theorists, denying manmade climate change, greenhouse gas, etc.

 

LOL, "All the negatives have been left out, so scientifically worthless and a one-sided summary."  There's evidence of hypocrisy in that statement as your posts re Trump to date leave all the positives out, so worthless as they're a one-sided view point.

 

I get the feeling that you're trying to skate on this one so please, when you do get back in front of your PC do show proof that this summary was produced by conspiracy theorists.

 

Thanks, glad to hear you're comparing my posts here to a so-called scientific study.

 

As I said, superfluous, just look at their other publications, I have given you those already. Questioning science is good, but has to be done on a scientific basis, and that is totally lacking here.

Let me make it clear for you.

 

You know damn well I wasn't comparing your posts to any scientific study.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in saying that something is worthless due to it's one-side nature while your views [re Trump] are 100% one-sided, which by your logic makes your views worthless.  Agreed?

 

You know damn well, also, that we're not talking about the studies within the summary at all, only about your threat to report another poster for not providing proof of their claim which I am unambiguously turning to yourself in that you made the claim that the summary was authored by "conspiracy theorists" while providing no proof that the authors are indeed "conspiracy theorists."  So by your own standards you should be reported, correct?

 

It's been pointed out by many, many posters here that libs very rarely, if ever, admit that they're wrong.  That's troubling, don't you think?

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Tippaporn

[stevenl]

18 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Let me make it clear for you.

 

You know damn well I wasn't comparing your posts to any scientific study.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in saying that something is worthless due to it's one-side nature while your views [re Trump] are 100% one-sided, which by your logic makes your views worthless.  Agreed?

 

You know damn well, also, that we're not talking about the studies within the summary at all, only about your threat to report another poster for not providing proof of their claim which I am unambiguously turning to yourself in that you made the claim that the summary was authored by "conspiracy theorists" while providing no proof that the authors are indeed "conspiracy theorists."  So by your own standards you should be reported, correct?

 

It's been pointed out by many, many posters here that libs very rarely, if ever, admit that they're wrong.  That's troubling, don't you think?

 

"You know damn well I wasn't comparing your posts to any scientific study.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in saying that something is worthless due to it's one-side nature while your views [re Trump] are 100% one-sided, which by your logic makes your views worthless.  Agreed?"

Since you were comparing my posts to those of a 'scientific' publication, no, not agreed. And no, my views are not one-sided, I even commended him recently for his announcement to start infrastructural works. BTW, any progress on that?

 

"You know damn well, also, that we're not talking about the studies within the summary at all, only about your threat to report another poster for not providing proof of their claim which I am unambiguously turning to yourself in that you made the claim that the summary was authored by "conspiracy theorists" while providing no proof that the authors are indeed "conspiracy theorists."  So by your own standards you should be reported, correct?"

I pointed that out very clearly to you.

 

"It's been pointed out by many, many posters here that libs very rarely, if ever, admit that they're wrong.  That's troubling, don't you think?"

Will not get into that since it would not be very flattering for Trump supporters who defend him whatever happens. Has he reached 20,000 lies already?

 

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

If you cared to do the research, rather than refute one of the few potential cures out there, there are several videos on Youtube, done by doctors who are using it on their patients with good success. Also a few studies, plus the Zelenko interview. You are welcome to pooh pooh them all. But, what is the alternative, for someone who is gravely ill? Just let them croak? There is no absolute proof. But, there are many success stories. Look, there was no absolute proof of gravity before Newton did his experiments, and if you go back long enough, they really thought the earth was flat, as there was not proof it was round, and they thought the earth was the center of the universe. 

Newton published his work and invited review of it.  He didn't make a Youtube video.

 

Also, people had high confidence that gravity worked before Newton published his theory. 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Following are scientific proofs for CV-19 ‘Trump Cure’ from January – April 20, 2020.  Hopefully this will lay this topic to rest and expose all of the Trump haters for their baseless, biased, erroneous opinions.

 

Sequential CQ / HCQ Research Papers and Reports January to April 20, 2020

 

Executive Summary Interpretation of the Data In This Report
The HCQ-AZ combination, when started immediately after diagnosis, appears to be a safe and efficient treatment for COVID-19, with a mortality rate of 0.5%, in elderly patients. It avoids worsening and clears virus persistence and contagious infectivity in most cases.

 

"when started immediately after diagnosis".  What does that mean?  At what point had the disease progressed at the time of diagnosis?  In the US many people can't get tested until they exhibit severe symptoms, in countries that have adequate testing people are diagnosed early in the disease. 

 

Keeping in mind that most people will recover from Covid 19 without medical treatment, studies that appear to show benefit from early treatment raise questions about the studies validity.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Geezus, stevenl, you still want remain in denial by asking for sources?  Who cares, they're scientific proofs.  That's not good enough for you.

 

By God, please, please don't report me for not providing a link.  I'll hold my tongue on that one.

 

https://principia-scientific.org/scientific-proofs-for-cv-19-trump-cure-from-january-april-20-2020/

Principia Scientifica, from the poster who claims he looks for credible news sources.

 

"Overall, we rate Principia Scientific International (PSI) a strong conspiracy and Pseudoscience website that promotes anti-vaccine propaganda and frequent misinformation regarding climate change."  https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/principia-scientific-international/

[RJRS1301]

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Thai Visa rules prohibit editing another poster's quotes.

I was responding to a post, it did not change the context in any way

 

 

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, forum rules require you to back up claims. Next time you make this claim without proof I'll report. I hope you do provide the proof, working medication would be excellent, but ATM it is not there yet.

OK, here you go. And just a heads up. It has been since the seventh grade, that someone has threatened to report me. I would try another approach. Surely in this day and age there are more mature ways to deal with issues.

 

In this new must watch video, Dr. Zelenko went on to explain that hydroxychloroquine helps zinc penetrate the cell (zinc decelerates viral replication in the cell). He stated that azithromycin combats secondary infections. Dr. Zelenko is surprised that many other doctors operate with a “peace time mentality.” Instead, he calls for bravery and mindset adjustment.

 

https://techstartups.com/2020/04/05/new-updates-dr-vladimir-zelenko-cocktail-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-azithromycin-showing-phenomenon-results-900-coronavirus-patients-treated-must-watch-video/

 

Last week, the American Society of  Thoracic Surgeons issued guidelines for doctors to use the anti-malarial if they are in the advanced stages of the coronavirus, but some physicians say that it needs to be administered long before that.

“In a pandemic, we need to be using presumptive diagnoses,” said Marvin Lerner, a retired Manhattan-based physician and infectious diseases expert.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/11/doctors-pols-urge-use-of-miracle-coronavirus-drug-cocktail/

 

By day 6 of the study, 70% of treated patients no longer harbored virus as determined by RT-PCR, compared with 12.5% of controls. The combination of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin was more effective at clearing virus than hydroxychloroquine alone.

 

https://www.virology.ws/2020/03/19/hydroxychloroquine-reduces-viral-load-and-symptoms-in-covid-19-patients/

 

I could go on all day long. None of these are clinical studies, and none are absolutely conclusive. But, I ask once again, when faced with death as an alternative, how conclusive does the medication have to be?

 

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

OK, here you go. And just a heads up. It has been since the seventh grade, that someone has threatened to report me. I would try another approach. Surely in this day and age there are more mature ways to deal with issues.

 

In this new must watch video, Dr. Zelenko went on to explain that hydroxychloroquine helps zinc penetrate the cell (zinc decelerates viral replication in the cell). He stated that azithromycin combats secondary infections. Dr. Zelenko is surprised that many other doctors operate with a “peace time mentality.” Instead, he calls for bravery and mindset adjustment.

 

https://techstartups.com/2020/04/05/new-updates-dr-vladimir-zelenko-cocktail-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-azithromycin-showing-phenomenon-results-900-coronavirus-patients-treated-must-watch-video/

 

Last week, the American Society of  Thoracic Surgeons issued guidelines for doctors to use the anti-malarial if they are in the advanced stages of the coronavirus, but some physicians say that it needs to be administered long before that.

“In a pandemic, we need to be using presumptive diagnoses,” said Marvin Lerner, a retired Manhattan-based physician and infectious diseases expert.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/11/doctors-pols-urge-use-of-miracle-coronavirus-drug-cocktail/

 

By day 6 of the study, 70% of treated patients no longer harbored virus as determined by RT-PCR, compared with 12.5% of controls. The combination of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin was more effective at clearing virus than hydroxychloroquine alone.

 

https://www.virology.ws/2020/03/19/hydroxychloroquine-reduces-viral-load-and-symptoms-in-covid-19-patients/

 

I could go on all day long. None of these are clinical studies, and none are absolutely conclusive. But, I ask once again, when faced with death as an alternative, how conclusive does the medication have to be?

 

Again no proof but anecdotal reports. Also many anecdotal reports pointing the other way, plus research inconclusive at best, pointing at negative effects at worst.

 

You made a claim that can not be backed up, simply because the claim is incorrect.

 

The mature way is to back up claims.

 

Oh, and a film from 5 April with 7 April update is not new, not is it must watch. You simply copied that from his website.

Edited April 30, 2020 by stevenl

[doggie1955]

Yup!  You can see this is a liberal post.

[candide]

5 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Following are scientific proofs for CV-19 ‘Trump Cure’ from January – April 20, 2020.  Hopefully this will lay this topic to rest and expose all of the Trump haters for their baseless, biased, erroneous opinions.

 

Sequential CQ / HCQ Research Papers and Reports January to April 20, 2020

 

Executive Summary Interpretation of the Data In This Report
The HCQ-AZ combination, when started immediately after diagnosis, appears to be a safe and efficient treatment for COVID-19, with a mortality rate of 0.5%, in elderly patients. It avoids worsening and clears virus persistence and contagious infectivity in most cases.

 

Lol!

There is no author's name on the document.

It is published by PSI, rated as a strong conspiracy and Pseudoscience website

 

Any serious scientific meta-analysis should first explain the methodology on how the documents were selected and include a rating of the different studies. It should also include all reliable documents that provide positive AND negative results, not only positive results. Those document lists only studies showing a positive result so it cannot be considered as scientific (i.e. Popper's falsification). 

Edited April 30, 2020 by candide

[Rimmer]

Post with unaproved news source removed

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Again no proof but anecdotal reports. Also many anecdotal reports pointing the other way, plus research inconclusive at best, pointing at negative effects at worst.

 

You made a claim that can not be backed up, simply because the claim is incorrect.

 

The mature way is to back up claims.

 

Oh, and a film from 5 April with 7 April update is not new, not is it must watch. You simply copied that from his website.

Ok. I guess best to just give up, surrender and die, if infected and in a high risk group? After all. We can't ignore the established protocols. These great organizations and Big Pharma are always going to prioritize our welfare. Right?

[metisdead]

A post with a disguised link to an unapproved YouTube source has been removed. 

[Tippaporn]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

"You know damn well I wasn't comparing your posts to any scientific study.  I was pointing out your hypocrisy in saying that something is worthless due to it's one-side nature while your views [re Trump] are 100% one-sided, which by your logic makes your views worthless.  Agreed?"

Since you were comparing my posts to those of a 'scientific' publication, no, not agreed. And no, my views are not one-sided, I even commended him recently for his announcement to start infrastructural works. BTW, any progress on that?

 

"You know damn well, also, that we're not talking about the studies within the summary at all, only about your threat to report another poster for not providing proof of their claim which I am unambiguously turning to yourself in that you made the claim that the summary was authored by "conspiracy theorists" while providing no proof that the authors are indeed "conspiracy theorists."  So by your own standards you should be reported, correct?"

I pointed that out very clearly to you.

 

"It's been pointed out by many, many posters here that libs very rarely, if ever, admit that they're wrong.  That's troubling, don't you think?"

Will not get into that since it would not be very flattering for Trump supporters who defend him whatever happens. Has he reached 20,000 lies already?

 

Well, I do have to compliment you.  Your spin is masterful.  I would seriously consider getting a job as a reporter for CNN, WaPo, or the New York Times.

[Phoenix Rising]

9 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

It's been pointed out by many, many posters here that libs very rarely, if ever, admit that they're wrong.

You mean just like Trump?

[Tippaporn]

Well, this thread just got some fresh legs.

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - AAPS Letter Asking Gov. Ducey to Rescind Executive Order concerning hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19

 

Now we'll just wait for the TVF pundits to come on to rightly and soundly "debunk" these physicians.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, this thread just got some fresh legs.

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - AAPS Letter Asking Gov. Ducey to Rescind Executive Order concerning hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19

 

Now we'll just wait for the TVF pundits to come on to rightly and soundly "debunk" these physicians.

As of april 30th

"Investigators from Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital conducted a comprehensive literature review of clinical experiences with chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in order to determine these drugs’ potential safety and efficacy in fighting COVID-19. They also reviewed anecdotal reports and poorly controlled clinical trials that raised the initial optimism about these therapeutic treatments.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are effective against malaria, rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus, but likely not COVID-19, investigators wrote. "

https://www.contagionlive.com/news/chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-ineffective-covid-19

 

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, this thread just got some fresh legs.

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - AAPS Letter Asking Gov. Ducey to Rescind Executive Order concerning hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19

 

Now we'll just wait for the TVF pundits to come on to rightly and soundly "debunk" these physicians.

No new research, but a group of physicians who, based on research done, want to prescribe. 

Their choice if they can get it approved, others will disagree, see e.g. the link in the previous post.

Edited May 1, 2020 by stevenl

[Tippaporn]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

As of april 30th

"Investigators from Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital conducted a comprehensive literature review of clinical experiences with chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in order to determine these drugs’ potential safety and efficacy in fighting COVID-19. They also reviewed anecdotal reports and poorly controlled clinical trials that raised the initial optimism about these therapeutic treatments.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are effective against malaria, rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus, but likely not COVID-19, investigators wrote. "

https://www.contagionlive.com/news/chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-ineffective-covid-19

 

Well, that didn't take long.

 

You really do want this drug to fail, don't you?

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, that didn't take long.

 

You really do want this drug to fail, don't you?

Strange conclusion.

[Tippaporn]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Strange conclusion.

Perhaps it is.

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, that didn't take long.

 

You really do want this drug to fail, don't you?

No i do not.

No one would be happier than me to have an effective treatment and be done with this nonsense.

  In the initial free fall I lost 21% of my portfolio value before I caught it, since then I was able to regain 8% , this morning I got up and the market was all RED, down about 3% across the board.  This Thing is nerve wracking. It is counter productive, frasturating, and honestly boring. 

We need real solutions not political gambits, You all might thing this is political football but it is not a game, Real lives are lost. hard work erased. 

If Hydroxychloroquine is a solution let the professionals on that field determine it.

Anyway, w t f do we need Hydroxychloroquine when we have lysol. 

Enough of this c r u p . let's let the adults handle it. 

[Tippaporn]

34 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No i do not.

No one would be happier than me to have an effective treatment and be done with this nonsense.

  In the initial free fall I lost 21% of my portfolio value before I caught it, since then I was able to regain 8% , this morning I got up and the market was all RED, down about 3% across the board.  This Thing is nerve wracking. It is counter productive, frasturating, and honestly boring. 

We need real solutions not political gambits, You all might thing this is political football but it is not a game, Real lives are lost. hard work erased. 

If Hydroxychloroquine is a solution let the professionals on that field determine it.

Anyway, w t f do we need Hydroxychloroquine when we have lysol. 

Enough of this c r u p . let's let the adults handle it. 

In that case you have my apology.

[RJRS1301]

8 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, that didn't take long.

 

You really do want this drug to fail, don't you?

You seem to be the one taking it all personally. 

Other are merely putting up research which does not support your research, this is what happens in good research. Look at all angles to reach the correct conclusions, as opposed to just looking to back up your preconceived ideas.

It is called an open mind and being aware of ones own bias

 

[candide]

9 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, this thread just got some fresh legs.

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients

 

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) - AAPS Letter Asking Gov. Ducey to Rescind Executive Order concerning hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19

 

Now we'll just wait for the TVF pundits to come on to rightly and soundly "debunk" these physicians.

And, of course, the AAPS is a trusted organisation! ????

The association is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. ????

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

 

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by candide

[Slip]

7 minutes ago, candide said:

And, of course, the AAPS is a trusted organisation! ????

The association is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. ????

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

 

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

 

The alt-right and their "evidence" are a constant source of amusement, both on this forum and out in the real world.  ????

 

New legs indeed...

Edited May 1, 2020 by Slip

[candide]

5 minutes ago, Slip said:

The alt-right and their "evidence" are a constant source of amusement, both on this forum and out in the real world.  ????

 

New legs indeed...

Frankly, it's so easy to check that it takes the fun out of it. Usually not more than 5 minutes using Google.

[checkered flag]

Trump was willing to take a risk and tried to break through the regulatory maze of the FDA. It might be helpful or not but full regulatory compliance would prevent anything from happening. The alt-right is against anything Trump does or says. His only interest was to get the ball rolling and encourage looking for solutions. The argument here should be can we break through the BS and try something. If it works great, it not let's try something else. This was a drug in use for many years so the downside risks were well known. 

[stevenl]

A combination vaccine against measles, parotitis and rubella may result in a less severe sickness. That would be an explanation why adults, who did not receive this vaccine, are hit more severe. That is the result of UK research in Cambridge and Luton.