American expat avoids jail for negative review - reaches settlement with Koh Chang hotel

[KhunFred]

You are never far from being blackmailed in the Land of Smiles. Glad that he avoided jail. Sorry that he has to bow to these scum to keep his freedom.

[KhunFred]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:48 AM, warcy said:

The problem is not about writing a single bad review, the problem is reporting fake comments on multiple websites and same website over many weeks just to defame that hotel.

 

If the comment is genuine, it's acceptable but not when it's full of malice and half-truth.

Your post overlooks the fact that "truth" is irrelevant in the Thai law on defamation. The only thing considered is whether the "defamed" party suffered a loss. This is the critical difference between defamation laws of other countries and the Thai version. If truth is not a defense, where is the justice???

[mark131v]

9 hours ago, Old Croc said:

The man you want to champion is a buffoon who has come under notice in home country for brandishing a gun

 

Nope, I agree he has acted like a buffoon that is beside the point

9 hours ago, Old Croc said:

Nope, it was defamation

 

Nope it was his opinion and could very well be a wrong opinion, again beside the point

9 hours ago, Old Croc said:

His several posts using different versions of his name contained lies and racism

 

Nope, he posted 4 reviews on 2 platforms. I have seen the reviews the point out the ethnicity of the manager and he states an opinion that the man was a bully to his staff and that the staff in general seemed miserable, this is not racism. I have several different online id's when I report on different platforms this is not in order to be sneaky or naughty

 

What can we take away, the hotel owner and management are small minded, thin skinned buffoons seemingly incapable of any forethought whilst demonstrating their petty and vindictive nature

 

I have stayed there several times but never again I am sure I wont be the only one... 

[Enki]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:31 AM, mark131v said:

 

Nope it was a bad review...

 

Absolutely does not matter who is wrong, if you run a business in hospitality industry (might want to look that up!!) then you are going to have to deal with unhappy punters, par for the course....

 

How you as a business deals with this is really important but I reckon getting your customers jailed for 4, I say again 4!!!! online reviews well I really think that's a <deleted> poor management plan and tbh a bit <deleted>...

He would have faced similar punishment in the USA or Germany. Defamation is not a joke. Sorry, if you see that different than good luck with your further "reviews".

No idea what that has to do with "hospitality" - if it had been my business I had sued him sure my self as well. 

Some things you can shake of and just shake your head and forget, some thing cross the line. He crossed the line pretty badly.

[Enki]

On 10/29/2020 at 7:29 AM, KhunFred said:

Your post overlooks the fact that "truth" is irrelevant in the Thai law on defamation. The only thing considered is whether the "defamed" party suffered a loss. This is the critical difference between defamation laws of other countries and the Thai version. If truth is not a defense, where is the justice???

No it is not. Seriously, get a clue or you soon get a defamation law suit, too. Because a comment like yours here: is defamation. Because: it is a lie, it is wrong.

 

[KhunFred]

1 hour ago, Enki said:

No it is not. Seriously, get a clue or you soon get a defamation law suit, too. Because a comment like yours here: is defamation. Because: it is a lie, it is wrong.

 

Read the law and then tell me that I am wrong. Truth is no defense in a defamation case in Thailand. This is well documented.

[pkspeaker]

On 10/9/2020 at 11:14 AM, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

That doesn't seem so bad that all this drama was created.. ok so he was sympathetic to the Thai staff.. but what does "modern day slavery" really mean--nothing..

[bodga]

5 hours ago, Enki said:

No it is not. Seriously, get a clue or you soon get a defamation law suit, too. Because a comment like yours here: is defamation. Because: it is a lie, it is wrong.

 

YES IT IS

[uncle_tom]

56% of Tripadvisor reports rate the hotel as 'Excellent' - which is pretty good going. Add in the 'Very good' ratings and you're up to 87%

 

As a random comparison, the Hua Hin Hilton gets 79% approval in the top two slots, and the tired old Manhattan off Sukhumvit only manages 57%..

[mark131v]

3 hours ago, uncle_tom said:

56% of Tripadvisor reports rate the hotel as 'Excellent' - which is pretty good going. Add in the 'Very good' ratings and you're up to 87%

 

As a random comparison, the Hua Hin Hilton gets 79% approval in the top two slots, and the tired old Manhattan off Sukhumvit only manages 57%..

 

I have stayed there a few times and the location is nice, I have always spoken well of it to others and have even taken visiting family for stays that said any hotel that gets their guests jailed is off my list forever...

Edited November 2, 2020 by mark131v

[Myran]

18 hours ago, KhunFred said:

Read the law and then tell me that I am wrong. Truth is no defense in a defamation case in Thailand. This is well documented.

This is actually the case in quite a few countries, even in the Western world. One example is of a guy convicted of animal abuse in Sweden after letting a bunch of farm animals starve to death. A journalist wrote an article about it, calling him an animal abuser, and several people have now been convicted of defamation just for sharing said article on social media. The verdicts specifically mention that the information being true has no bearing on whether or not it's regarded as defamation. What matters instead is whether or not the "defamation victim" can be regarded as a public figure or not.

 

Not defending it, just pointing out that Thailand's definition of defamation (unfortunately) isn't all that alien.

[rott]

On 10/29/2020 at 6:31 AM, mark131v said:

 

Nope it was a bad review...

 

Absolutely does not matter who is wrong, if you run a business in hospitality industry (might want to look that up!!) then you are going to have to deal with unhappy punters, par for the course....

 

How you as a business deals with this is really important but I reckon getting your customers jailed for 4, I say again 4!!!! online reviews well I really think that's a <deleted> poor management plan and tbh a bit <deleted>...

The law on Defamation in Thailand says that you must "not impair the reputation" of another. Also that "the truth is not a defence in a private matter". 

 

So why you insist that it was not defamation I do not understand. 

[KhunFred]

2 hours ago, Myran said:

This is actually the case in quite a few countries, even in the Western world. One example is of a guy convicted of animal abuse in Sweden after letting a bunch of farm animals starve to death. A journalist wrote an article about it, calling him an animal abuser, and several people have now been convicted of defamation just for sharing said article on social media. The verdicts specifically mention that the information being true has no bearing on whether or not it's regarded as defamation. What matters instead is whether or not the "defamation victim" can be regarded as a public figure or not.

 

Not defending it, just pointing out that Thailand's definition of defamation (unfortunately) isn't all that alien.

Interesting. I would have thought that this was a uniquely Thai view of defamation. Apparently, I was wrong.

[mark131v]

4 hours ago, rott said:

4 hours ago, rott said:

The law on Defamation in Thailand says that you must "not impair the reputation" of another. Also that "the truth is not a defence in a private matter". 

 

So why you insist that it was not defamation I do not understand. 

 

4 hours ago, rott said:

How you as a business deals with this is really important but I reckon getting your customers jailed for 4, I say again 4!!!! online reviews well I really think that's a <deleted> poor management plan and tbh a bit <deleted>...

 

He is not a Thai and he wrote a review lots do after a stay in a hotel many positive some negative both equally valid as without one what's the point of the other, get it?

 

I am not arguing about Thai law we all know there are laws that are designed to protect the people in power and the people with money this like LM and computer crimes are glowing examples of those control laws

 

The bit above I wrote and highlighted is my overriding opinion on this, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, again this is a prime example, hopefully we won't be getting into pigeon chess but....

 

Who wins in this, nobody, who loses well the hotel and hospitality in general as well as TaT and the Thai judicial system, potentially this will hit them hard in the only place that matters their pockets, will the owner be bothered probably not

 

The whole thing shines a light on the Thai's thin skinned overreaction, their petty and vindictive nature when crossed or when they don't get their own way and complete inability to see the bigger picture, not pretty

 

The fact they are willing to jail a person for 4 online reviews on 2 different platforms over a matter of weeks speaks volumes. The fact we have westerners who believe this was a good and proper course of action is frankly disturbing and hopefully they never get in any trouble in Thailand...

[KhunFred]

Best analysis of this situation that I have seen. Kudos.

[rott]

Agreed that they shot themselves in the foot. But are they bothered? I doubt it. Will it affect national or Koh Chang tourism? I doubt that too. 

It also clearly showed the gentleman's boorish behaviour don't forget. 

[salsajapan]

On 11/2/2020 at 1:47 PM, Enki said:

He would have faced similar punishment in the USA or Germany. Defamation is not a joke. Sorry, if you see that different than good luck with your further "reviews".

No idea what that has to do with "hospitality" - if it had been my business I had sued him sure my self as well. 

Some things you can shake of and just shake your head and forget, some thing cross the line. He crossed the line pretty badly.

 

How can you post something so ridiculous ?

anybody suing a customer deserves the worst.

 

will I be jailed and deported ? i keep posting bad reviews about them and will not quit.

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by salsajapan

[vinny41]

20 hours ago, salsajapan said:

 

How can you post something so ridiculous ?

anybody suing a customer deserves the worst.

 

will I be jailed and deported ? i keep posting bad reviews about them and will not quit.

 

Good Luck as you are aware most of these review sites use a single global database and if they have a presence in the UK they are subject to UK laws such as The Defamation (Operators of Websites) Regulations 2013

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3028/signature/made

Which allows owners that feel that the review is not valid they write a letter to the review site requesting they either remove the review or provide the full name and address of the reviewer and they have to comply within 48 hours

Normally these review websites don't have the full name or address of the reviewer so have no choice but to remove the review

 

[pattayadgw]

Absolutely PATHETIC Thailand

[Kiujunn]

_{^{Thai Hotel That Put American in Jail Gets New Label on Tripadvisor}}

_{^{The travel review website has posted a one-of-a-kind notice on the hotel’s page, warning tourists that it was responsible for the jailing of a guest who wrote a harsh review.}}

_{^{https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/world/asia/thai-hotel-tripadvisor-warning-jail.html}}

 

[Pinoydave]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:24 PM, Kiujunn said:

_{^{Thai Hotel That Put American in Jail Gets New Label on Tripadvisor}}

_{^{The travel review website has posted a one-of-a-kind notice on the hotel’s page, warning tourists that it was responsible for the jailing of a guest who wrote a harsh review.}}

_{^{https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/world/asia/thai-hotel-tripadvisor-warning-jail.html}}

 

Is Trip Advisor actually looking for a fight with the Thai Government .?

[LomSak27]

Just now, Pinoydave said:

s Trip Advisor actually looking for a fight with the Thai Government .?

 

Trip advisor ?!?  Check out the New York Times article. Full size and slams both the reputation of the resort and Thailand for allowing this dog & pony show. The resort and government officials had their fun, now time to see how much of their leg is left after shooting off their foot. ???? Wow, lucky for them no tourists will be coming here for six months or more, still.

[mark131v]

Another absolute howler from the hotel, they deserve everything they get and now TripAdvisor have  explained it was them who intervened to try to keep Barnes safe and out of jail the hotels house of cards is crumbling

 

Petty, vindictive, thin skinned and above all else stupid and smallminded. Bet they thought a gentle bit of intimidation was all they needed, wrong...

 

From the link:

 

Tripadvisor countered that the company was not a party to the settlement and that its commitment was to Mr. Barnes to keep him out of prison.

 

“We have no agreement with the hotel,” Mr. Young said. “We sent a letter to Mr. Barnes taking steps to ensure his safety. We told the hotel the letter was accurate when they asked. We also have not violated any terms of the letter.”

Edited November 11, 2020 by mark131v

[mark131v]

On 11/7/2020 at 2:28 PM, Jimbo53 said:

Why is this topic still open,its ancient history!

Because it is still international news and is shining a light on the malicious vindictive petty people who run the hotel, it's also highlighting Thailand's control laws for the rich and powerful, bet they are squirming

[mark131v]

 

 

Classic, cannot treat stupid

 

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g580110-d594766-Reviews-Sea_View_Resort_Spa_Koh_Chang-Ko_Chang_Trat_Province.html

 

From the link top of the page for Seaview Koh Chang so nobody is in any doubt before they book:

 

Message from Tripadvisor:

This hotel or individuals associated with this hotel filed criminal charges against a Tripadvisor user in relation to the traveler writing and posting online reviews. The reviewer spent time in jail as a result. Tripadvisor serves its users best when travelers are free to share their opinions and experiences on our platform – both positive and negative. The hotel may have been exercising its legal rights under local law, however, it is our role to inform you so you may take this into consideration when researching your travel plans.

[mark131v]

From the NY Times article and absolutely nails it:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/world/asia/thailand-hotel-tripadvisor-jail.html

 

“Thailand’s use of criminal defamation is really off the charts,” said Phil Robertson, the deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch. “It seems like the Asian notion of ‘saving face’ has really been taken to heart by Thais who don’t hesitate to head to court over the smallest perceived slight or insult. If Thailand would simply decriminalize defamation, making it a purely civil law matter, this would create a major change in Thai society overnight.”

 

Another very disturbing bit, sounds like the hotel were happy to drag out the punishment:

 

Tripadvisor began paying his legal fees and helped bring the parties together to negotiate. Eventually, the Sea View agreed to drop its complaint if Mr. Barnes made a “sincere apology” for his reviews, which they said included “xenophobic comments against hotel staff.”

 

Mr. Barnes accepted the offer, and in a statement that resembled a forced confession, he apologized and thanked the hotel for forgiving him.

 

The fine print of the settlement also required Mr. Barnes to obtain an agreement from Tripadvisor, and he asked the company for a commitment that it would not post a “red badge” warning — Tripadvisor’s most dreaded notice — on the hotel’s page.

 

Tripadvisor posts various warnings to alert travelers to safety issues, and such notices can result in a significant drop in business. Agreeing to the hotel’s demand meant going against the company’s own practice of informing travelers.

 

[Showtime]

The hotel owner is going to pay dearly.  https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/2020/11/11/thai-hotel-that-put-american-in-jail-gets-new-one-of-a-kind-label-on-tripadvisor

 

 

[marinediscoking]

I didn't think TA had the balls to do this. They gave it plenty of time to let it play out, my guess is the hotel will change its name. 

[ChipButty]

The hotel would be better just close their TA account down

[balo]

1 hour ago, Showtime said:

The hotel owner is going to pay dearly.  https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/2020/11/11/thai-hotel-that-put-american-in-jail-gets-new-one-of-a-kind-label-on-tripadvisor

 

Not so sure about that, if they are smart they just take the page down and change the name of the hotel . And back in business when the tourists arrive next year.