Calls to give foreigners who buy a condo residency in Thailand

[gunnerterry]

20 hours ago, jmurch said:

<deleted> on giving migrant status to people who buy a condo, what about people who get married and buy property and build a home?

  That's right many people (including myself) are married to a Thai, have families, property in the wife's/husband's name and have been here many years but we have to 'jump through numerous hoops' to get a yearly visa! How about an easier residence status for those of us in this category, we probable will spend/have spent millions over the years towards the Thai economy! 

[scorecard]

6 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

20 years ago I married in Thailand, we relocated to UK for the first 5 years.

My wife was given a 2 year visa issued in Thailand to come to the UK.

At the end of the 2 years all we had to do was prove that we were still together, this was done with dual names on bank accounts and utility bills.
This was then posted to the office [no visit required] she was given residency status, no more visa's, no visits, no checks nothing... and no costs involved.
It's a shame Thailand cannot follow suit and give people some respect instead of fleecing them at every opportunity.

We returned here to live and 15 years later on a retirement visa I'm still doing 90 day reports like someone out on probation.

All understood, and I'm guessing your well aware of the overall Thai attitudes to foreign ownership/citizenships etc., and also well aware that all foreigners (regardless of basically any circumstances/details) are viewed as 'visitors'. 

 

I've been here 30+ years and I've held Thai PR for 23 years, I still get questions '...yes, but when are you going home.' My adult Thai son (born in Thailand, his face is very Thai) still gets the same questions 'when is your father going home to his farang country?'

 

I've seen my son hold his breath and say 'dad is home, his home is Thailand and will be forever'. A few times the response has been 'not possible, when is he coming home (to his farang country).'

 

And 'what about his home and wife in xxxx'

 

When this happens my son (any myself) just walk away.

 

As a whole society there is no inclination to allow 'foreigners' to be Thai citizens (which is of course possible, but the numbers are tiny) or even permanent residents (again possible but the actual numbers are small).

 

As you well know foreigners cannot own land in Thailand from my discussions with numerous work colleagues (Thai professors) and others there is basically no chance this will change.

 

There is of course a good question 'have other countries been too open to foreigners buying up land? Australia and other countries good examples, for many years there were no controls on this and as 1 example, Japanese folks now own vast amounts of land and property on the Australian gold coast. But more and more Australians are pushing for this to be stopped.

 

Bottom line; the Thai attitude to foreigners is what it is and it's not likely to change, regardless of the attitudes to this subject found in other countries. And Thailand is not the only country where you find these attitudes.

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

5 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I think the biggest worry from the Thai authorities is exploitation from foreign men with a large disparity in wealth and education from poor Thai women, often working in the sex-trade.

Why would this be a worry to them, and shame on you for insinuating that the majority of those married, married a poor Thai woman from the sex-trade.  It is actually very insulting.  However, when you look at the Sin-Sod issue, many are using their daughters to enhance their own lives, but not all.  At the end of the day, it is not like your own country, and when you decide to retire or move here to be with your spouse you should try hard to blend into society by at least learning the language.  Your worry that exploitation from foreign men with a large disparity in wealth and education is an issue, can be said for many countries and, even my own where a person making a decent living marries someone from a poorer family and thus picking them and their family out of poverty.  Yet in our countries those migrants that marry can after a time move to said country, obtain citizenship, and obtain the knowledge in a form of security with knowing that they can stay without having to report to the Government.  On top of that they can buy land, buy property, and build a business and work in it without having the very many restrictions that Thailand has.  Having said all of this, and knowing what the countries restrictions are about, I still chose to move and live here.  So I guess it would be my fault the Thai Government takes advantage of this and, can at anytime send me packing.  Never invest more than you can walk away from, and a Plan B or C is always needed.

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

All understood, and I'm guessing your well aware of the overall Thai attitudes to foreign ownership/citizenships etc., and also well aware that all foreigners (regardless of basically any circumstances/details) are viewed as 'visitors'. 

 

I've been here 30+ years and I've held Thai PR for 23 years, I still get questions '...yes, but when are you going home.' My adult Thai son (born in Thailand, his face is very Thai) still gets the same questions 'when is your father going home to his farang country?'

 

I've seen my son hold his breath and say 'dad is home, his home is Thailand and will be forever'. A few times the response has been 'not possible, when is he coming home (to his farang country).'

 

And 'what about his home and wife in xxxx'

 

When this happens my son (any myself) just walk away.

 

As a whole society there is no inclination to allow 'foreigners' to be Thai citizens (which is of course possible, but the numbers are tiny) or even permanent residents (again possible but the actual numbers are small). Arguably both Thai citizenship and PR are mostly based on having made/making a contribution to the development of Thailand in some specific field.

 

As you well know foreigners cannot own land in Thailand, from my discussions with numerous folks (Thai professors and others) there is basically no chance this will change.

Further I'v heard Thai folks say 'your county xxx allows anybody to buy land, why do they do that, they should reserve that land for local citizens'.

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

 

There is of course a good question 'have other countries been too open to foreigners buying up land? Australia and other countries good examples, for many years there were no controls on this and as 1 example, Japanese folks now own vast amounts of land and property on the Australian gold coast. But more and more Australians are pushing for this to be stopped.

 

Bottom line; the Thai attitude to foreigners is what it is and it's not likely to change, regardless of the attitudes to this subject found in other countries. And Thailand is not the only country where you find these attitudes.

 

 

 

[luckyluke]

15 hours ago, Pheat123 said:

Baht spent on hookers does not count.

And why not.

There seems to be a lot here thinking, because their  choice is to take care, by spending some money,  of one lady and her family,  they should be granted a special status.

Some s.xpats spend  a lot of money, generally to different ladies, which benefit different families.

[quake]

16 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

While I understand the sentiment behind your post I am yet to read one valid reason why married or retired men should receive automatic permanent residency status? 

 

Most can't speak Thai, have no interest in integrating to the country or culture, many don't ever even eat the local food, etc?

 

Reminds me of the enclaves of different cultures that have sprung up in the UK with absolutely no interest in British values, culture and integration.

 

I think the biggest worry from the Thai authorities is exploitation from foreign men with a large disparity in wealth and education from poor Thai women, often working in the sex-trade.

 

Anyway it is easy enough for married and retired persons to stay in Thailand, albeit temporarily, on a year to year basis, so we can't really complain.

 

Sorry, this is one area where I stand solidly with the Thais on their immigration policy.

There is no need to treat us like criminals.

that maybe ok for you, but not me.

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, quake said:

There is no need to treat us like criminals.

that maybe ok for you, but not me.

When / in what circumstances are foreigners 'treated as criminals'?

[quake]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

When / in what circumstances are foreigners 'treated as criminals'?

Immigration issues, need i say more.

 

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, quake said:

There is no need to treat us like criminals.

that maybe ok for you, but not me.

Having the feeling of being treated like a criminal, is something personal; not necessarily shared  by everyone.

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, quake said:

Immigration issues, need i say more.

 

20 years in Thailand on " Retirement Visa " based on income ( pension ) in homeland.

No Immigration issues so far, still no need to have any money on a Thai bankbook, neither to transfer monthly a minimum of 65000, if I don't want to.

This was one of the conditions for all nationalities, till a few years ago.

It still is, except for 3 nationalities.

[quake]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

20 years in Thailand on " Retirement Visa " based on income ( pension ) in homeland.

No Immigration issues so far, still no need to have any money on a Thai bankbook, neither to transfer monthly a minimum of 65000, if I don't want to.

This was one of the conditions for all nationalities, till a few years ago.

It still is, except for 3 nationalities.

do you still do the 90 day report for all foreign criminals.

 

also, what did you think about the TM 30 reporting saga ?

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by quake

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, quake said:

But I would say the majority of expats would side with me

I assume the expats you know.

90 days report is a condition to been able to stay here, I do it online, something like 5 minutes, 4 times a year, I can personally live with that, and I know others who share my opinion.

[Mr Meeseeks]

37 minutes ago, gunnerterry said:

  That's right many people (including myself) are married to a Thai, have families, property in the wife's/husband's name and have been here many years but we have to 'jump through numerous hoops' to get a yearly visa! How about an easier residence status for those of us in this category, we probable will spend/have spent millions over the years towards the Thai economy! 

How much easier can it get than going to the Thai Embassy or Consulate, getting a visa, coming to Thailand, sticking some money in the bank and then applying for a yearly extension?

 

If you really want residency status it is available but you have to speak Thai and have paid tax for three years. Again, and as discussed before, this is really only for those of us desirous of immigrating here and assimilating. It is not for those that pour scorn on the locals at every opportunity, refuse to integrate and can't speak a lick of the local language.

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, quake said:

i asked you what you thought of it.

I like it here.

At 72 I don't want to move, therefore I am ready to abide to a lot of things.

If one day I consider it as really too much, I will buy a one-way ticket.

[Mr Meeseeks]

33 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why would this be a worry to them, and shame on you for insinuating that the majority of those married, married a poor Thai woman from the sex-trade.  It is actually very insulting.  However, when you look at the Sin-Sod issue, many are using their daughters to enhance their own lives, but not all.  At the end of the day, it is not like your own country, and when you decide to retire or move here to be with your spouse you should try hard to blend into society by at least learning the language.  Your worry that exploitation from foreign men with a large disparity in wealth and education is an issue, can be said for many countries and, even my own where a person making a decent living marries someone from a poorer family and thus picking them and their family out of poverty.  Yet in our countries those migrants that marry can after a time move to said country, obtain citizenship, and obtain the knowledge in a form of security with knowing that they can stay without having to report to the Government.  On top of that they can buy land, buy property, and build a business and work in it without having the very many restrictions that Thailand has.  Having said all of this, and knowing what the countries restrictions are about, I still chose to move and live here.  So I guess it would be my fault the Thai Government takes advantage of this and, can at anytime send me packing.  Never invest more than you can walk away from, and a Plan B or C is always needed.

It's not my worry at all, so you can stop shooting the messenger.

 

However, exploitation of poor Thai women is the reason and that reason has been stated by the Thai authorities numerous times for the lack of options for residence of foreign men and was recently the excuse for the (now rescinded) law in Cambodia that foreign men over 50 were prohibited from marrying local women.

 

A quick Google will bring up many articles about foreigners exploiting Thai and other South East Asian women and specifically Chinese and Korean men marrying poorer Thais.

 

Remember, these men often mistreat and abuse their Thai partners as well.

 

You will note that if you marry or are with a decent Thai woman and go for the PR interview your chance of passing the 'test' and obtaining PR increases markedly, in comparison to marrying or being with women with sex-industry backgrounds, prison tattoos on their hands, poorer education etc. 

 

It's a judgmental world out there and the Thais at that interview are looking at you and scrutinising every facet of your life here. Remember, they are wondering whether you are worth importing after all!

 

I know several Western men whom have applied and been refused and when they ask me why despite their best efforts it is very difficult to explain to them that their lifestyles and choices of partner have a lot to do with it.

 

As for me as I said I worry not and the best gf's I have had over the years have been from bars and I still enjoy a bg's company over the hi-so's and other 'decent' women I sometimes find myself forced to socialise with.

 

 

[scorecard]

39 minutes ago, quake said:

Immigration issues, need i say more.

 

 Perhaps you need to understand what the word criminal means.

Because you don't fit the requirements set out in the Thai immigration laws/regulations doesn't mean you are being treated as a criminal. 

[luckyluke]

Just now, quake said:

So that's it. no answer.

 

 

If that's the way you consider it, so be it.

[Mr Meeseeks]

49 minutes ago, quake said:

There is no need to treat us like criminals.

that maybe ok for you, but not me.

In what way are the Thai authorities treating you like a criminal?

 

And if you feel that way, why on Earth are you here?

 

It must be ok for me, as I am still here and loving life in Thailand, love the people, the culture and the country.

 

We are all responsible for our choices after all and we all knew what this place was like when we rocked up here.

[Mr Meeseeks]

9 minutes ago, EricTh said:

This is just another one of those plans that will never materialise.

 

The government is too xenophobic of foreigners buying their properties; where else in the world are foreigners banned from buying land?

New Zealand, among a host of other countries.

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, teacherclaire said:

Teaching their kids for almost 20 years, being married to a Thai, helping the whole extended family have a comfortable life, paying taxes and overpriced tickets to get into a national park, and spending roughly 20 million baht so far doesn't count.

Are you talking about yourself? If so, there is an easy path to citizenship. I assume you get over 40k a month if you can spend 20 million. Actually, you don't need that if you are female.  

[Airalee]

12 hours ago, Medelline said:

5 million baht in exchange of 5 years visa, 10 million baht in exchange of  residency   sounds  great 

Fair market value of that 5 million baht condo (which is probably closer to 3 million) plus 1 million for a 20 year elite visa sounds even better.  

[Sir Dude]

The problem with all these constant ideas for this, that and the other for foreigners who invest is that what will the rules be in a few months or even tomorrow? Look what has happened to people who have already invested lots of money ... mostly can't even get back in and they are floating ideas like this. I guess it's just for the Chinese and they will slowly flood the country until it is properly taken over. Anyone else would have to be insane to invest anything substantial here as the goal posts are continually moving, with little or no notice, and it could easily be argued that there is a western foreigner depopulation push active. Furthermore, it almost seems as if they don't want tourists back with all the nonsense requirements like electronic tagging etc. which few are likely to accept and the Chinese will probably be exempt, I bet.

 

If I had my time over again, then there would be no way I'd invest anything here. You are still OK for now (if in the country, I guess) if you are married to a Thai or have a work permit but once all the other low-hanging fruit is gone ... who do you think they will turn on next?

[Keesters]

21 hours ago, Percy P said:

But they have in other ways like 20,000 Baht having to be kept in a Thai Bank for an OA retirement visa.

400,000 Baht for a category O multi entrance visa . They want to Foreign money it cheap to obtain this way.

If they would have to borrow off the IMF it comes at a high price . 

And when were those made. Not long ago. So my comment remains "too little too late". Trying to close the barn door after horse has bolted.

[Chelseafan]

On 11/1/2020 at 12:00 AM, lujanit said:

Never going to happen.  The Thais are racist and xenophobic towards farangs.  Maybe the Chinese will get some form of long stay visa but not farangs.

 

They are Xenophobic and racist towards ALL foreigners until they see the $$$$

 

[jwest10]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:11 AM, animalmagic said:

Couldn't agree with you more.  Buying property is not investing in a country it's investing in  a personal property portfolio; and not a very wise one at that.  The only people who benefit are the Govt and property developers, it has little or no financial benefit for the general population.

They did the same in HK where any person investing in property to the tune of 3/4 million USD could get an ID and residency for them and their dependents.  Hot money from China came in and caused an upsurge in prices that took any chance of buying their own flat away from many HK people.  The new immigrants then wanted the best medical treatment and schools so Govt hospitals were allowed to offer private treatment and International schools increased fees to make more out of the new arrivals who could afford.

Housing, education and health are three of the main pillars of a stable society and they were taken out of the reach of many who were born and brought up in HK.

Not just condominiums, though it can be in foreign name as long as 51 per cent of the block are owned by Thais but what about many other people who have provided funds for houses and yes there was something mentioned several years ago but nothing happened. for their Thai families.
It won't happen and no account for this investment ever.

[mickymouse1]

You are not allowed to let that condo if you are not living in it.

Still no one is able to get it right. 

Any specific Condos or Areas do you have to buy in?

[DrTuner]

4 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

If you really want residency status it is available but you have to speak Thai and have paid tax for three years. Again, and as discussed before, this is really only for those of us desirous of immigrating here and assimilating. It is not for those that pour scorn on the locals at every opportunity, refuse to integrate and can't speak a lick of the local language.

I partly agree, but international investors are usually wealthy and don't care about integrating to where ever they put their money into. They can afford to build a lifestyle that suits them. They do care about access to their investments, though.

 

If you read the PR requirements, the 10M investment category does not mention the 3y tax requirement. It's something that was added on top ad hoc. The original idea might have worked.

[NobbyClarke]

The Chinese will benefit (for now?)

[Arkady]

On 11/1/2020 at 2:17 PM, Ketyo said:

With 10M investment in a new property or a fixed interest account or a Thai government bond you can already get an investment non-B visa. It allows you to stay indefinitely. Just renew the visa every year and do the 90 day report. 

 

So what does this new concept give people that is different? Does it apply to any condo old or new...  or what?

 

 

Good point. It seems like this proposal has been made by property developers without much research into existing regulations. The government can just reply,  "That's a great idea which is why we introduced the investment visa over 20 years ago."  After the Tom Yam Kung crisis they actually reduced the threshhold to 2 million for several years.  The advantage of this type of visa is that you can work on it but it is not dependent on your employment status. So if you stop working it makes no difference to your visa. I knew several people who used it when it was 2 million which could be put on deposit at Krung Thai Bank instead of buying a condo. 

 

They will shoot their bolt by suggesting something which already exists.  Not much chance in the government offering PR for condo buyers anyway.  Most of the conditions for granting PR are set in concrete in the 1979 Immigration Act and can only be amended by act of parliament.  I don't think it has ever been amended as governments are free to change the terms of all other types of visa through police orders or ministerial regulations.  Amending the Immigration Act would be a big thing that a government would have to put on the parliamentary agenda and be prepared for a big tousle over.  I don't think they could be bothered for something like this. 

 

They are also going to point out that there is already an investment category for PR for those who invest in businesses, even though it is practically a sham as investment applicants still need to meet the same requirements for work history and salary tax payment as everyone else but their investments are placed under close scrutiny.  So an  easy way to do it would be to just amend the guidelines to this category to include 10m investment in new condos. That would mean the applicants would still need to meet all the other criteria of the investment category, i.e 3 years' continuous WP, salary over 80k per month etc which would entitle them to apply under the business category without investing anything. They have done this to the humanitarian category for those supporting Thai family which is just for show because they will not accept applications from anyone who doesn't meet the business category qualifications but they are subject to scrutiny of their Thai family.

 

The condo developers should have done their research and suggested lowering the threshhold to less than 10 million again, rather than waste everyone's time with an ill considered proposal like this.

 

 

[HaoleBoy]

On 11/1/2020 at 6:50 AM, Jeffr2 said:

They're starting to get desperate if they are doing this.  Letting dirty farangs get residency.  Who would have thought.????

 

Seriously, it's a great idea.  Several countries already do this. From a few years ago:

 

https://qz.com/31397/buy-a-home-get-a-visa-for-a-mere-e160000-you-can-become-a-spanish-resident/

 

Here's an updated list of countries and the amount of investment needed to "buy residency".  Investment can be buying a house or other types of investment in the country.

     https://apexcapital.partners/blog/list-of-countries-giving-citizenship-by-investment/