UK PM Johnson's Brexit 'brain' Cummings to leave Downing Street

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oh, so much misinformation dressed up as insight. 

Why would an independent Scotland fail to meet fiscal requirements?

Which countries would object to Scotland joining the EU? Note that the 'classic example' has been debunked so many times, you betray how little you know when you posit it. 

 

Tusk: EU would be enthusiastic if Scotland applied to rejoin

Spanish government confirms no EU veto for an independent Scotland

As far as I can see the consul Miguel Angel Vecino Quintana has been sacked for stating such a falsehood.

 

Your source:

"In a letter obtained from the newspaper 'The National', Spanish Consul General in Edinburgh, Miguel Angel Vecino Quintana confirms that Spain "will not block Scotland's entry into the European Union if independence is legally achieved."

 

From my link:

"One of Madrid’s top diplomats in Scotland has been fired after saying that Spain would not block an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU, according to Spanish media.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-fires-diplomat-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/

 

 

 

[fangless]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oh, so much misinformation dressed up as insight. 

Why would an independent Scotland fail to meet fiscal requirements?

Which countries would object to Scotland joining the EU? Note that the 'classic example' has been debunked so many times, you betray how little you know when you posit it. 

 

Tusk: EU would be enthusiastic if Scotland applied to rejoin

Spanish government confirms no EU veto for an independent Scotland

Just one small example from the Tusk statement  you referenced above.(he has retired and has no voice remember)

 

Tusk said there were significant legal issues facing Scotland were it to become independent and seek readmission to the EU, as well as the diplomatic convention of not interfering in a state’s internal affairs.

The EU has been clear Scotland would need to apply afresh, alongside other applicants.

While he sympathised with Scotland’s plight, Tusk added: “At the same time, I have to respect … I know how important the word “sovereignty”, “integrity”, was in the debate in the United Kingdom. I think it’s not my role to intervene in [that] despite my sympathy. If you ask me about legal circumstances, we have to be here very cautious. We have our own treaties.

“Of course, you can always interpret treaties in very different ways. But if I understand well, the only justified interpretation is that if something like, you know, the independence of Scotland happens then we need a regular new process. There is no automaticity"

 

Scotland's own Financial Statements admit that Scotland cannot meet the current EU fiscal  requirement to join the EU.  Sturgeon keeps stating "re-join" something different and not now possible.

She has said on many occasions she wants an "independent Scotland inside the EU with Her Majesty as head of state and keeping the pound.  That is not independence and is not possible.  The BofE have stated very clearly that and Independent Scotland cannot keep the pound.  The EU say all new members  must join the Euro.  Checkmate!

[Bruntoid]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

Totally irrelevant post.

All of his are - generally adds nothing! 
 

 

[fangless]

20 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Why would an independent Scotland fail to meet fiscal requirements?

From your same Tusk reference from your post (you either did not read it or chose to ignore the detail!)

 

Scotland would not be able to win back any of the concessions the UK had within the EU, such as less onerous VAT rules or exemption from the Schengen security treaty. Scotland would also be expected to rejoin the common fisheries policy – a system which boosted the pro-Brexit vote in Scottish fishing areas.

Scottish government data, which was released last week but not publicised, showed a £5bn cut in Scotland’s economic output from £180bn to £175bn, which is equivalent to a deficit of 7.2%. The deficit shows the gap between public spending and tax income. The EU requires its member states to have a deficit below 3%.

John McLaren, an economist, told the Sunday Times: “A £5bn – almost 3% – downwards revision in Scottish GDP has important implications for judging Scotland’s economic and fiscal standing, especially in terms of independence or full fiscal autonomy.”

[fangless]

23 minutes ago, stevenl said:

rejection by the EU, should really be to the Scots, nobody else

Rejection by the EU will be from the EU (guaranteed) and cannot be by the Scots.  How could the Scots reject their own application?

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, fangless said:

Just one small example from the Tusk statement  you referenced above.(he has retired and has no voice remember)

 

Tusk said there were significant legal issues facing Scotland were it to become independent and seek readmission to the EU, as well as the diplomatic convention of not interfering in a state’s internal affairs.

The EU has been clear Scotland would need to apply afresh, alongside other applicants.

While he sympathised with Scotland’s plight, Tusk added: “At the same time, I have to respect … I know how important the word “sovereignty”, “integrity”, was in the debate in the United Kingdom. I think it’s not my role to intervene in [that] despite my sympathy. If you ask me about legal circumstances, we have to be here very cautious. We have our own treaties.

“Of course, you can always interpret treaties in very different ways. But if I understand well, the only justified interpretation is that if something like, you know, the independence of Scotland happens then we need a regular new process. There is no automaticity"

 

Scotland's own Financial Statements admit that Scotland cannot meet the current EU fiscal  requirement to join the EU.  Sturgeon keeps stating "re-join" something different and not now possible.

She has said on many occasions she wants an "independent Scotland inside the EU with Her Majesty as head of state and keeping the pound.  That is not independence and is not possible.  The BofE have stated very clearly that and Independent Scotland cannot keep the pound.  The EU say all new members  must join the Euro.  Checkmate!

 

Of course there are legal hurdles to any country joining the EU so it would be fanciful to suggest that Scotland's accession would be any different, but as Scottish law has been harmonised with EU law for decades, it is not incredulous to suggest that those hurdles might be relatively easy to navigate compared to those faced by countries which had never been part of the EU. 

 

Scotland, as part of the UK, cannot meet the fiscal requirements of EU membership. Drop the deadweight that is the union, and the future will be very different. 

 

How does the BoE propose to prevent Scotland using the pound, whether it be a permanent or temporary arrangement?

 

EU membership is contingent upon aspirant countries agreeing in principle to the premise of the euro, but only upon qualification. Adoption of the euro is not a prerequisite. 

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, fangless said:

From your same Tusk reference from your post (you either did not read it or chose to ignore the detail!)

 

Scotland would not be able to win back any of the concessions the UK had within the EU, such as less onerous VAT rules or exemption from the Schengen security treaty. Scotland would also be expected to rejoin the common fisheries policy – a system which boosted the pro-Brexit vote in Scottish fishing areas.

Scottish government data, which was released last week but not publicised, showed a £5bn cut in Scotland’s economic output from £180bn to £175bn, which is equivalent to a deficit of 7.2%. The deficit shows the gap between public spending and tax income. The EU requires its member states to have a deficit below 3%.

John McLaren, an economist, told the Sunday Times: “A £5bn – almost 3% – downwards revision in Scottish GDP has important implications for judging Scotland’s economic and fiscal standing, especially in terms of independence or full fiscal autonomy.”

 

Don't forget, the cost of being in the UK is factored into the above. Independence means the opportunity to ditch the fiscal regime of the UK and adopt one that suits Scotland. 

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

As far as I can see the consul Miguel Angel Vecino Quintana has been sacked for stating such a falsehood.

 

Your source:

"In a letter obtained from the newspaper 'The National', Spanish Consul General in Edinburgh, Miguel Angel Vecino Quintana confirms that Spain "will not block Scotland's entry into the European Union if independence is legally achieved."

 

From my link:

"One of Madrid’s top diplomats in Scotland has been fired after saying that Spain would not block an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU, according to Spanish media.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-fires-diplomat-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/

 

 

 

 

Don't like him? How about the Spanish foreign minister?

 

Spain would not oppose future independent Scotland rejoining EU - minister

Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

[fangless]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Drop the deadweight that is the union, and the future will be very different. 

What dead weight that is the union?  Do you mean the deadweight that the Barnet Formula imposes on the total UK devolved budgets,  A major % of Scottish income is derived from it.  The devolved administrations are the deadweight in the UK.  

 

[fangless]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Don't forget, the cost of being in the UK is factored into the above. Independence means the opportunity to ditch the fiscal regime of the UK and adopt one that suits Scotland. 

It is obvious you do you not understand the "Barnet Formula" , how it works and is applied?

Edited November 17, 2020 by fangless

[RuamRudy]

Just now, fangless said:

Do you not understand the "Barnet Formula" works and is applied?

 

I do, but do you?

 

[stevenl]

39 minutes ago, stevenl said:

That decision, and maybe rejection by the EU, should really be to the Scots, nobody else.

 

14 minutes ago, fangless said:

Rejection by the EU will be from the EU (guaranteed) and cannot be by the Scots.  How could the Scots reject their own application?

Please quote in full, by leaving out the beginning of my post you have changed the meaning.

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, fangless said:

What dead weight that is the union?  Do you mean the deadweight that the Barnet Formula imposes on the total UK devolved budgets,  A major % of Scottish income is derived from it.  The devolved administrations are the deadweight in the UK.  

 

 

Virtually all Scottish income is derived from it with the exception of a minor amount of revenue generated from tax varying powers.

But Barnet does not account for Westminster's discretionary spending on Scotland (a big, unaccountable black hole of about £30 billion) and doesn't  take account of national infrastructure projects such as HS2 or Crossrail, just 2 of many projects to which Scots must contribute without receiving any benefits. 

 

Another way to consider the arrangement is to think about having to hand over your salary each month to your neighbour, and for him to decide how much of it he would return to you. He would then spend however much he chose on things he never really properly explains and never asks you if you want - then bills you for it without showing you receipts. 

 

That is the deadweight that is Westminster. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by RuamRudy

[fangless]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I do, but do you?

 

You obviously do not know how it works or you would not have made this asinine comment "ditch the fiscal regime of the UK and adopt one that suits Scotland. "  Scotland without the Barnet devolved funding would be so much poorer as to beggar belief!

[fangless]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Virtually all Scottish income is derived from it with the exception of a minor amount of revenue generated from tax varying powers.

Thank you.  The rest of your post is  convoluted and spurious!
The Office for National Statistics has produced data on surplus/deficit per person - ie the gap between what is raised in revenues and what is spent.

On that measure, Northern Ireland had the highest net fiscal deficit per head, at £4,978, in 2018-2019, followed by:

Wales at £4,289
Scotland at £2,713
England at £68
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38077948

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, fangless said:

You obviously do not know how it works or you would not have made this asinine comment "ditch the fiscal regime of the UK and adopt one that suits Scotland. "  Scotland without the Barnet devolved funding would be so much poorer as to beggar belief!

 

I am more than happy to continue this discussion with you, but might I suggest that we continue it on the Scottish thread a couple of pages back? These BritNats are obsessed with the sactity of this failing union and never miss an opportunity to derail topics by injecting Scottish independence into it, but there is a more appropriate place for it. 

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

You might do? ????

 

There's no need to keep up this pretense. We both know that's not what the Scottish Nationalists want. You'd rather be ruled by Brussels than Westminster. Simple as that. You'll be begging them to let you in. And beg you most certainly will, given their rules on government deficit (below 3% of GDP) and government debt below 60%, both of which you will fail by some distance.

 

It's ironic that you criticize Brexiteers for truly wanting Independence and sovereignty for the UK. At the same time you pretend to want the same for Scotland while secretly dreaming of being lorded over by the EU Commission. 

Scotland has no debt. 

The UK has debt but none of it is in Scotlands name.

So if, by your logic, we simply say "Stick your debt" we will already be well on our way to satisfying the EU's requirements for joining.

 

????

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, fangless said:

Thank you.  The rest of your post is  convoluted and spurious!
The Office for National Statistics has produced data on surplus/deficit per person - ie the gap between what is raised in revenues and what is spent.

On that measure, Northern Ireland had the highest net fiscal deficit per head, at £4,978, in 2018-2019, followed by:

Wales at £4,289
Scotland at £2,713
England at £68
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38077948

 

Convoluted? If you cannot follow a simple narrative, I cannot help you there.

Spurious? In what way?

[fangless]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

but there is a more appropriate place for it. 

Agreed.

I was pointed to a particular post by a friend and had not realised the thread's tile.  Sorry we hijacked it

[7by7]

9 hours ago, transam said:

"We" is a term I use for the UK populace of the time or at any time for that matter, do you have a problem with that or are you just nitpicking...?

During WW2 my dad was a RSM class 1, my mum worked on Mosquito fighter plane stuff, that was after being bombed out of two houses.

Fascism you refer to was the German government of the day, as well as the other axis fascist country governments, remember, they were political parties..

 

My paternal grandfather was in the trenches from 1914 to 1918. One of the very few in his pals battalion who survived the war.

 

My father was in the RAF from 1939 to 1946.

 

My mum was in the ATS from 1939 to 1944.

 

Does that make my opinion worth more than yours?

 

Of course not!

 

This country will, I hope, never forget the debt we owe to those who served in both world wars and since; but to constantly refer back to them when you have run out of argument is nothing but faux patriotism!

 

 

[7by7]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

The English or rather their constitution has been under attack for years.

 How so? Some examples, please.

 

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

Why do you think they are the only country in Europe without a parliament and being targeted to being carved up into regions?

 

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

The English are being targeted to being carved up into regions?

Yes, as explained by this map:

(Note the absence of ???????????????????????????? or a Parliament to fairly represent the population)

An extremely misleading map as it only shows the English regions and ignores those in the other parts of the UK. For example

 

We do, of course, have a parliament; the one at Westminster.

 

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

Thankfully many are waking up but it's taken time..

 You and your wwg1wga England mates may be "waking up;" the rest of us don't want yet another level of politicians and bureaucrats whose high salaries will be paid for out of our taxes. I would have thought that as someone who wanted the UK to be free of the bureaucracy of Brussels you would agree with that sentiment!

Edited November 17, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

My paternal grandfather was in the trenches from 1914 to 1918. One of the very few in his pals battalion who survived the war.

 

My father was in the RAF from 1939 to 1946.

 

My mum was in the ATS from 1939 to 1944.

 

Does that make my opinion worth more than yours?

 

Of course not!

 

This country will, I hope, never forget the debt we owe to those who served in both world wars and since; but to constantly refer back to them when you have run out of argument is nothing but faux patriotism!

 

 

 

My great grandfather was also in the trenches, my grandfather fought through north Africa and Italy, my father was also in the army as was I.

But of course only Brexiteers are patriots. Anyone else is at best anti British or at worst a traitor.

However it seems driving a taxi and voting for Brexit gives some people a right to define who is a patriot and who is not.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

The English or rather their constitution has been under attack for years. Why do you think they are the only country in Europe without a parliament and being targeted to being carved up into regions?

Thankfully many are waking up but it's taken time...

Can you please provide a link to where I can read this ‘English Constitution’ you claim is under attack?

[Bruntoid]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

My great grandfather was also in the trenches, my grandfather fought through north Africa and Italy, my father was also in the army as was I.

But of course only Brexiteers are patriots. Anyone else is at best anti British or at worst a traitor.

However it seems driving a taxi and voting for Brexit gives some people a right to define who is a patriot and who is not.

 

And signing up to the petition to bring Page 3 back ! 

[fangless]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

My great grandfather was also in the trenches

Primary school playground arguments/comparisons!  My daddy is bigger/better than.........

Why don't you all grow up and stick to facts? 

That's  if any of you know them!

[7by7]

28 minutes ago, fangless said:

Primary school playground arguments/comparisons!  My daddy is bigger/better than.........

Why don't you all grow up and stick to facts? 

That's  if any of you know them!

 

Tell that to @transam!

 

It was his constant references to the war and then the roles his parents played and his implications, and sometimes actual statements, that this meant his opinion was valid whereas anyone who disagreed with him was anti British which prompted the posts you object to!

 

Speaking personally, I know lots of facts about how the EU functions, the UKs relationship with the EU both pre and post Brexit and the effects on this country of both a decent trade deal and anything in between up to and including the worst possible outcome for the UK; no deal.

 

It's not my fault that posting those facts means certain people can only respond with their 'anti British' knee jerks.

[AmySeeker]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Scotland has no debt. 

The UK has debt but none of it is in Scotlands name.

So if, by your logic, we simply say "Stick your debt" we will already be well on our way to satisfying the EU's requirements for joining.

 

????

 

Bless. 

 

Who do you think is paying for the furlough scheme, and bailouts during lockdown? Put it this way, Scotlands GDP without North Sea Oil is miniscule compared to the massive bailout it's been taking. 

 

Scotland at the moment have the best of both worlds. They get to make their own rules, all whilst having the safety net of a big brother if anything goes wrong, not having to worry about defense, security, etc. Having independence, borders, no guarentee they will join EU (Spain and other countries will object), losing the currency, defence, military, is just the stuff of fairy cakes. 

 

And the case for another referendum because we are leaving a trading block? Give me a break. You can't just have referendums every few years. 

 

If the British government refuse to give them one, what can they do ? They've already had one.  

 

It's in the Torys's interests the SNP are kept propped up. Without them the votes would naturally go to Labour. Hence why they always tease us with this nonsnese. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by AmySeeker

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, AmySeeker said:

 

Bless. 

 

Who do you think is paying for the furlough scheme, and bailouts during lockdown? Put it this way, Scotlands GDP without North Sea Oil is miniscule compared to the massive bailout it's been taking. 

 

Scotland at the moment have the best of both worlds. They get to make their own rules, all whilst having the safety net of a big brother if anything goes wrong, not having to worry about defense, security, etc. Having independence, borders, no guarentee they will join EU (Spain and other countries will object), losing the currency, defence, military, is just the stuff of fairy cakes. 

 

And the case for another referendum because we are leaving a trading block? Give me a break. You can't just have referendums every few years. 

 

If the British government refuse to give them one, what can they do ? They've already had one.  

 

It's in the Torys's interests the SNP are kept propped up. Without them the votes would naturally go to Labour. Hence why they always tease us with this nonsnese. 

Why don't you just leave it up to the Scots. Why want independence from the EU, without the EU having a say, while at the same time deny that same independence to the Scots, without the Scots having a say.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, AmySeeker said:

 

Bless. 

 

Who do you think is paying for the furlough scheme, and bailouts during lockdown? Put it this way, Scotlands GDP without North Sea Oil is miniscule compared to the massive bailout it's been taking. 

 

Scotland at the moment have the best of both worlds. They get to make their own rules, all whilst having the safety net of a big brother if anything goes wrong, not having to worry about defense, security, etc. Having independence, borders, no guarentee they will join EU (Spain and other countries will object), losing the currency, defence, military, is just the stuff of fairy cakes. 

 

And the case for another referendum because we are leaving a trading block? Give me a break. You can't just have referendums every few years. 

 

If the British government refuse to give them one, what can they do ? They've already had one.  

 

It's in the Torys's interests the SNP are kept propped up. Without them the votes would naturally go to Labour. Hence why they always tease us with this nonsnese. 

What’s this ‘Defense’ you are referring to?

 

Scotland’s contribution to the defense of the U.K. is beyond question.

 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, AmySeeker said:

 

Bless. 

 

Who do you think is paying for the furlough scheme, and bailouts during lockdown? Put it this way, Scotlands GDP without North Sea Oil is miniscule compared to the massive bailout it's been taking. 

 

Scotland at the moment have the best of both worlds. They get to make their own rules, all whilst having the safety net of a big brother if anything goes wrong, not having to worry about defense, security, etc. Having independence, borders, no guarentee they will join EU (Spain and other countries will object), losing the currency, defence, military, is just the stuff of fairy cakes. 

 

And the case for another referendum because we are leaving a trading block? Give me a break. You can't just have referendums every few years. 

 

If the British government refuse to give them one, what can they do ? They've already had one.  

 

It's in the Torys's interests the SNP are kept propped up. Without them the votes would naturally go to Labour. Hence why they always tease us with this nonsnese. 

 

Where to start with this.

Its the Bank of England which is paying for the furlough. Sunak had to borrow the money for it. The UK currently has a debt to 2 trillion pounds but here you are telling us that Scotland could not manage its own finances ????

 

Not having to worry about defense? Perhaps you can list who exactly would be looking to invade Scotland? Upon independence Scotland would be entitled to a per population share of all UK assets. This means we would be getting things like ships, aircraft and tanks. All the stuff we would need for our own defense force.

 

Spain has said it would not block Scotland from joining the EU.

 

You cannot stop Scotland using the pound. Its a fiat currency. Indeed you would not want Scotland to stop using the pound because if and when we do it will lose about 10% of its value overnight.

 

There is no timescale for when referendums can be held. None. We should have another one because the majority in Scotland want one. Its the democratic will of the people. Its democracy. 

 

Ironically if you had given us a referendum 2 years ago unionists may very well have won but its the refusal to give a section 30 and Brexit which is driving up support for independence. The need for a section 30 is currently being examined by the Scottish courts to see if its even required. 

 

You seriously need to get up to speed on whats happing in Scotland.