Scotland's Sturgeon hints at legal move if independence vote blocked

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

So what are your thoughts if Scotland had won the independence referendum in 2014, they would have been forced to leave the EU would they not? Would you still be blaming England for Scotlands departure?

But leaving the EU was one of the major selling points of remaining in the UK.

Cameron even brought Barruso over to tell Scotland such would be the case.

But you Brexiteers broke that deal even though you were warned about it.

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, vogie said:

So what are your thoughts if Scotland had won the independence referendum in 2014, they would have been forced to leave the EU would they not? Would you still be blaming England for Scotlands departure?

It is unlikely that Scotland would have been forced to leave the EU as they were already a member of the EU already (Scottish citizens were EU citizens regardless) - it was just regional division of a state within the EU.   The EU would have likely had a transitional period to which the EU and an independent Scotland would negotiate on a final status within the EU.  The scare tactics (project fear) is often though the route that Nations take when confronted with such an issue (it works in the short-term but can be problematic in the long term).   UK traffics in fear with regards to Scotland vs Scottish Nationalists are selling a dream...

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   So, we have a referendum every four years ?

Scotland leaving and (or not ) rejoining again every four years , just isnt workable .

   Just look at Brexit , if another referendum vote today went to remainers , we would be applying to join again , (which could take 10-20 years ) , before we've even properly left .

   In four years time , we could be applying to leave again, before we've even joined 

  It just doesn't work that way 

 

But we never left. The situation remains at it was, in respect to the integrity of the union other than the subsequent imposition of EVEL. 

 

However there has been a material change in circumstances which has galvanised public support and demonstrated, clearly, that the countries of the UK are not aligned; that significant parts of it are unhappy at how the UK is managed, and how the will of the larger partner is imposed on the others without consideration. 

 

That dissatisfaction was made clear in 2015 when the SNP almost swept the board at the GE. Their support has continued to grow and nothing has changed in terms of Westminster governance despite the promises illegally made during the referendum (illegal in that they breached purdah). 

 

So what do you suggest should happen? Should Westminster continue apace and ignore the anger felt by the majority of Scots? 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It is unlikely that Scotland would have been forced to leave the EU as they were already a member of the EU already (Scottish citizens were EU citizens regardless) - it was just regional division of a state within the EU.   The EU would have likely had a transitional period to which the EU and an independent Scotland would negotiate on a final status within the EU.  The scare tactics (project fear) is often though the route that Nations take when confronted with such an issue (it works in the short-term but can be problematic in the long term).   UK traffics in fear with regards to Scotland vs Scottish Nationalists are selling a dream...

Scotland was not a member, the UK was the member, and as such Scotland would have to have left. Are you saying that Scotland would not have had to meet any of the EUs criteria for rejoining?

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It is unlikely that Scotland would have been forced to leave the EU as they were already a member of the EU already (Scottish citizens were EU citizens regardless) - it was just regional division of a state within the EU.   The EU would have likely had a transitional period to which the EU and an independent Scotland would negotiate on a final status within the EU.  The scare tactics (project fear) is often though the route that Nations take when confronted with such an issue (it works in the short-term but can be problematic in the long term).   UK traffics in fear with regards to Scotland vs Scottish Nationalists are selling a dream...

EU made a statement

Independent Scotland would have to reapply to EU, NATO, officials say

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Scotland would have to reapply for membership of both the European Union and NATO if Scots vote to leave the United Kingdom in a referendum this month, officials said on Monday.

“If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory,” Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0H31FK20140908

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

EU made a statement

Independent Scotland would have to reapply to EU, NATO, officials say

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Scotland would have to reapply for membership of both the European Union and NATO if Scots vote to leave the United Kingdom in a referendum this month, officials said on Monday.

“If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory,” Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0H31FK20140908

 

Right so your project fear was successful and Scotland voted to remain.

However you then dragged us out of the EU anyway.

You broke the deal. You were warned but you went ahead anyway.

[bkkcanuck8]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Scotland was not a member, the UK was the member, and as such Scotland would have to have left. Are you saying that Scotland would not have had to meet any of the EUs criteria for rejoining?

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, there would have to be a transitional period (not too dissimilar to the UK leaving the EU)... during that period Scotland would have been part of the EU and UK, and during that transitional period (of a few years) - there would be sufficient time to to 'reapply' and complete the process.

 

Scotland would already have pretty much all the criteria (more so than many of the new countries that have been admitted in recent times) which would include things like a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.  The EU president would not give any other statement before independence was confirmed by a referendum and the UK had officially accepted the results - as doing so would be interfering in internal politics. 

 

In the end though Scotland would have remained a member of the EU after a transitional period (which would be in the interest of all parties concerned). 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK, there would have to be a transitional period (not too dissimilar to the UK leaving the EU)... during that period Scotland would have been part of the EU and UK, and during that transitional period (of a few years) - there would be sufficient time to to 'reapply' and complete the process.

 

Scotland would already have pretty much all the criteria (more so than many of the new countries that have been admitted in recent times) which would include things like a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.  The EU president would not give any other statement before independence was confirmed by a referendum and the UK had officially accepted the results - as doing so would be interfering in internal politics. 

 

In the end though Scotland would have remained a member of the EU after a transitional period (which would be in the interest of all parties concerned). 

You have a link to all your assertions please?

[sandyf]

On 12/1/2020 at 11:54 AM, AlexO said:

Scotland voted in the 2014 referendum to remain part of the United Kingdom, the 2016 EU referendum was not based on regional results but on National results. The SNP economic projections in 2014 of how much to set up a duplicate Scottish Government were blatant lies (Salmond quoted around 2 billion total) its working out at around 2 billion a department!! Scotland's fiscal deficit for the limited devolved responsibilities they have are running at about 8% (some 15 billion)GDP. Max deficit to even be allowed to apply for membership to the EU is 3%. Huge spending cuts required over years to achieve this. The SNP would have everyone believe they speak for all of Scotland, truth is they are a minority leadership party only kept in power with with the support of 6 unelected Green, list MSP's who get virtually every stupid tree hugging demand so they will continue voting with the SNP. Scots are not stupid, they see the mess the SNP has made of Scotland's education standards, the Scottish Health Service, Police Scotland and Law and Order generally. Scots know that the SNP have starved Local Authorities of cash in favour of more central command and the continuous stream of freebies for vote winners. They are a one trick pony and pretty poor trick it is too. The referendum will not take place because the SNP know that they cannot run an independent  Scotland without massive subsidies from others   

Now tell us what is wrong with holding a referendum to confirm that the people of Scotland actually wish to remain in the UK.

Then, unlike the previous referendum, the term can actually be incorporated into the Bill. The Belfast Agreement specifies 7 years between any referendum on reunification. If the same precedent had been applied to Scotland then another could be held in 2021. NS has good reason to look to the legality of any further block.

The so called "once in a generation" term was never included in the 2014 Bill, nothing more than a comment taken out of context, so again, what is wrong with going to court for clarification.

[bkkcanuck8]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

You have a link to all your assertions please?

I made a statement on what I believe will be the likely outcome of any vote for independence, and now you want a link to my belief... you just read it... you have a very short memory ????

 

Either way, if enough of the population voted to remain in the UK solely because of the campaign of fear about being forced out of the EU... and now the UK is pulling out of the EU taking Scotland with them... then the referendum results are no longer valid. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I made a statement on what I believe will be the likely outcome of any vote for independence, and now you want a link to my belief... you just read it... you have a very short memory ????

 

Either way, if enough of the population voted to remain in the UK solely because of the campaign of fear about being forced out of the EU... and now the UK is pulling out of the EU taking Scotland with them... then the referendum results are no longer valid. 

I think sometime we are better at sticking to definitive replies than speculating as it just causes confusion. 

But can't you see that Scotland in 2014 voted to leave the UK and it would have meant leaving the EU as well, so with that in mind they didn't seem to care about the rest of the UK then did they, did your sympathies lie with the rest of the UK then, I very much doubt it.

 

[sandyf]

44 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

EU made a statement

Independent Scotland would have to reapply to EU, NATO, officials say

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Scotland would have to reapply for membership of both the European Union and NATO if Scots vote to leave the United Kingdom in a referendum this month, officials said on Monday.

“If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory,” Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0H31FK20140908

Of course Scotland would have to apply to join the EU, never been any doubt on that.

Applications to join the EU are involved and quite protracted, mainly because new applicants are required to bring their infrastructure up to EU standards.

If Scotland's infrastructure needs bringing up to EU standard then the application could take some time, otherwise it is as likely to take as long as every other country that has rejoined the EU.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

So what are your thoughts if Scotland had won the independence referendum in 2014, they would have been forced to leave the EU would they not? Would you still be blaming England for Scotlands departure?

The decision taken in 2014 was the right one for Scotland, Alex Salmond produced a 650 page white paper but it had more holes than a bar of aero.

Much has changed since 2014 and the people of Scotland have the right to study a new plan, reassess the situation and take another decision.

 

The problem with brexiteers is there was no plan, so a bit of an alien concept to them.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The decision taken in 2014 was the right one for Scotland, Alex Salmond produced a 650 page white paper but it had more holes than a bar of aero.

Much has changed since 2014 and the people of Scotland have the right to study a new plan, reassess the situation and take another decision.

 

The problem with brexiteers is there was no plan, so a bit of an alien concept to them.

Are you blaming England for Alex Salmond lying to you know, unbelievable.????????????

[2530Ubon]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Alex Salmond produced a 650 page white paper but it had more holes than a bar of aero.

I had forgotten they existed - Yum!

[rudi49jr]

52 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The problem with brexiteers is there was no plan, so a bit of an alien concept to them.

[CorpusChristie]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But we never left. The situation remains at it was, in respect to the integrity of the union other than the subsequent imposition of EVEL. 

 

However there has been a material change in circumstances which has galvanised public support and demonstrated, clearly, that the countries of the UK are not aligned; that significant parts of it are unhappy at how the UK is managed, and how the will of the larger partner is imposed on the others without consideration. 

 

That dissatisfaction was made clear in 2015 when the SNP almost swept the board at the GE. Their support has continued to grow and nothing has changed in terms of Westminster governance despite the promises illegally made during the referendum (illegal in that they breached purdah). 

 

So what do you suggest should happen? Should Westminster continue apace and ignore the anger felt by the majority of Scots? 

 

Should all the people that voted to remain  form their own Country and rejoin the E.U.?

[Surelynot]

2 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Alex Salmond produced a 650 page white paper but it had more holes than a bar of aero.

I had forgotten they existed - Yum!

Still a closely guarded secret creating those bubbles...so I understand!

[Surelynot]

12 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

Should all the people that voted to remain  form their own Country and rejoin the E.U.?

Oh if only......more than happy to apply for Scottish nationality

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

Should all the people that voted to remain  form their own Country and rejoin the E.U.?

 

We already have a majority in my country so we have already overcome the regional hurdle; any remainer from elsewhere in the Union who wishes to move north would, I am sure, be made more than welcome. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

We already have a majority in my country so we have already overcome the regional hurdle; any remainer from elsewhere in the Union who wishes to move north would, I am sure, be made more than welcome. 

Thinking that you have a majority and catagorically saying that you have a majority are two different things, stop deluding yourself RR.

[Surelynot]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

We already have a majority in my country so we have already overcome the regional hurdle; any remainer from elsewhere in the Union who wishes to move north would, I am sure, be made more than welcome. 

My great great great great great grandmother comes from the Isle of Whithorn.....will that be good enough?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Thinking that you have a majority and catagorically saying that you have a majority are two different things, stop deluding yourself RR.

 

I wish my knowledge of common fallacies was better such that I could name the one you are falling for.

 

Essentially what you seem to be saying is that a vote 6 years ago returned X. Even although many polls since indicated that Y is the majority view, as there has been no formal rerun of the vote, X must still be considered to be the only valid result. And therefore the vote should not be rerun because there is not formal indication of anything to the contrary. Is that a reasonable explanation?

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I wish my knowledge of common fallacies was better such that I could name the one you are falling for.

 

Essentially what you seem to be saying is that a vote 6 years ago returned X. Even although many polls since indicated that Y is the majority view, as there has been no formal rerun of the vote, X must still be considered to be the only valid result. And therefore the vote should not be rerun because there is not formal indication of anything to the contrary. Is that a reasonable explanation?

 

Correctomundo, I am saying a vote returned 6 years ago proved that the Scots wanted to remain, you are saying "polls" prove that I am wrong, tell me you are not serious RR. 

[2530Ubon]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

Thinking that you have a majority and catagorically saying that you have a majority are two different things, stop deluding yourself RR.

 

I wish my knowledge of common fallacies was better such that I could name the one you are falling for.

Facts seem to be so trivial these days. Apparently one's own opinion is far superior to polls. Even though polls have been consistently accurate on this topic;

 

In early September, polls indicated that the vote would be closer than had been indicated earlier. On 6 September a YouGov poll gave those in favour 47% versus 45% for those against; excluding those undecided, the figures were 51% and 49%, respectively.[415] The final polls, taken in the last few days of the campaign, indicated a lead for No of between 4% and 6%.[416] No exit poll was conducted. Soon after polling stations had closed, YouGov released a final poll that had been taken during the day of voting, indicating 46% Yes, 54% No.[417][418]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Scottish_independence_referendum#Voting_process

 

The actual result, as we know, was 44.7 Yes & 55.3% No. I'd say those polls were pretty much spot on, wouldn't you?

Edited December 6, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

Correctomundo, I am saying a vote returned 6 years ago proved that the Scots wanted to remain, you are saying "polls" prove that I am wrong, tell me you are not serious RR. 

 

Yes, that's what I am saying. If you don't trust statistical polling, you are essentially saying that you don't trust mathematics. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but a whole flock of them should have you check the calendar. 

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Yes, that's what I am saying. If you don't trust statistical polling, you are essentially saying that you don't trust mathematics. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but a whole flock of them should have you check the calendar. 

I don't trust any polling, maybe you wouldn't unless they are telling you what you want to hear, you might as well toss a coin up untill it lands on the side you have chosen.

Here is the poll of the 2016 EU referendum, pretty close but totally wrong.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I don't trust any polling, maybe you wouldn't unless they are telling you what you want to hear, you might as well toss a coin up untill it lands on the side you have chosen.

Here is the poll of the 2016 EU referendum, pretty close but totally wrong.

 

And the 6% who were not captured in that poll as, at that point, they were undecided, eventually weighed everything up and decided that they wanted £350 million a week extra for the NHS. I would imagine whoever conducted that poll would be quite proud of its accuracy.

Edited December 6, 2020 by RuamRudy

[3NUMBAS]

rab nesbit is her acting baristor .with jimmy cranky along for the ride

[RuamRudy]

Now that Flip flop Johnson has caved in to the EU, does this mean that the UK Internal Market Bill will be scrapped, seeing as we no longer have a level playing field across the UK? 

 

I wonder how Arlene and her terrorist friends and confidants are feeling today.