UK and EU reach Brexit trade deal

[bartender100]

2 hours ago, Hi from France said:

the problem in that most Brexiteers here are not just Tories, they are nationalists.

 

And Brexit has fanned the flames not just of English nationalism, but also of Irish and Scottish nationalism. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a country that is compatible with nationalism.

 

The union between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britain, followed by the union in 1801 of Great Britain with the Kingdom of Ireland is formed of separate nations.

• What remains of the Kingdom of Ireland wants to be a member of the European Union
• The Kingdom of Scotland wants to be a member of the European Union
• The British Oversea Territory of Gibraltar wants to be a member of the European Union
• England (apart from the capital, London) does not want to be a member of the European Union

 

event the Welsh are pro-european.... you know that Welsh-speaking constituencies voted remain ?

 

 

So in a few days, Brexit will be effective, but the United Kingdom has a lot of soul-searching to do, lest it each piece goes its own way. ironically, the European Union was keeping the pieces of the the United Kingdom together

 

 

 

In other words, unless you can find a uniting and effective project as the United Kingdom, these separate nations won't be "United".

 

English nationalism could break the United Kingdom.

 

 

 

Gibraltar might be the first piece to detach in a few days. That's why I find it important to debate what is happening there

 

.

I am all for an independent Scotland, born English but with a mother that grew up in the Gorbals of Glasgow, though history I believe we have trod on the Scots enough.

 

But they would have zero chance of joining the EU if they applied as a country

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

When the dust settles I expect someone (Ferage?) will submit a FoI to find out exactly what the damage is. If it hasn't happened in a reasonable timeframe i'll do it myself.

For evil to triumph it only requires good men to do nothing.

[puipuitom]

21 minutes ago, bartender100 said:

But the Scots would have zero chance of joining the EU if they applied as a country

Why ? Just an acceptance of 27 EU member states.

Or.. as member of the Gaelic (con)federation, with Eire and Ulster + maybe Wales. Just as Belgium now. Than zero discussion.

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

Well it may surprise you but in many instances, the French view is that E.U. was run by Germany and the United Kingdom. 

 

France and the United Kingdom were not on the same page with European matters. 

 

Europe has already changed gear recently getting more ambitious and united, not only with the English influence gone, but also Trump and Covid-19. 

Good stuff the eu showing a bit of backbone,however trump has already been voted out of office,and as for covid 19 a pair of clogs i ordered from holland are still stuck in calais so if you could convey a message to macaron and tell him to pull finger on the fiasco of his making would be very gratefull.

[puipuitom]

On 12/25/2020 at 5:15 AM, Surelynot said:

So if 48% of the UK population vote for Boris  .......Boris is only popular with the people who like him?

No, only the alternative was disliked more

Edited December 26, 2020 by puipuitom

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

Documentation and delays at the border will hurt a lot.

 

Let's face it : the strongest proponent of the single market is now out of the single market. 

 

For those of you who think that the EU budget is too high : it's 1% of our GDP while the federal budget of the USA is 20%, give or take. 

 

. 

Not a comparison at all.

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, bartender100 said:

I am all for an independent Scotland, born English but with a mother that grew up in the Gorbals of Glasgow, though history I believe we have trod on the Scots enough.

 

But they would have zero chance of joining the EU if they applied as a country

Why? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

 

[7by7]

3 hours ago, kingdong said:

Should be interesting when the other countries are told to increase their financial contribution to make up for uks shortfall

 Obviously there will be a hole in the EU's budget; but how big a hole we will have to wait and see. After all, they wont be spending any money here anymore; except that already agreed.

 

3 hours ago, kingdong said:

i thought the eu were going to " fine " the uk for daring to leave,what happened there?

Unsurprisingly, you thought wrong.

 

The WA signed last January laid out the Brexit divorce bill: How much does the UK owe the EU?

Quote

 

Originally, the settlement was estimated to be about £39bn, but a lot of that was paid as the UK's regular contributions to the EU budget during 2020.

From January, there will be about £25bn left to pay by 2057, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), almost £18bn of which will be paid in the first five years.

A proportion of that, nearly all of it after the first few years, will be paying for the pensions of British EU staff and MEPs.

 

We will still receive EU money as well: 

Quote

But there will also be money paid back to the UK from things like its money in the European Investment Bank (just over £3bn) and the European Central Bank (about £50m).

The UK will also receive a share of any money paid to the EU in fines that were imposed before the end of 2020, which is estimated to be worth about £1.2bn.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[7by7]

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

3 hours ago, kingdong said:

Should be interesting when the other countries are told to increase their financial contribution to make up for uks shortfall,i thought the eu were going to " fine " the uk for daring to leave,what happened there?

When the dust settles I expect someone (Ferage?) will submit a FoI to find out exactly what the damage is. If it hasn't happened in a reasonable timeframe i'll do it myself.

 

What damage?

 

The future EU contributions due from and EU payments to the remaining 27 members? None of our business; we're not a member anymore.

 

The money we still owe the EU? As shown in my previous; that is already known and was agreed to in the WA last January!

Edited December 26, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[473geo]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Nearly 4 of every 5 new tractors in the UK come from just 3 giants

 

John Deere are American owned; New Holland are American/Italian owned; Massey Ferguson, although originally UK/Canadian owned, is now American owned.

 

"Long gone are the glory days when the vast majority of tractors used on UK farms were built in UK factories.

Today, only CNH Industrial’s New Holland plant in Essex survives as a major tractor assembly centre, with JCB’s Fastrac production line near Cheadle, Staffordshire, being the only other source of UK-built tractors.

Further afield, Austria, France, Germany and Italy have managed to retain tractor production on a large scale, as have Japan and the United States – the latter being the source for the majority of the highest horsepower models used in Britain"

 

Source: Farmers Weekly

Edited December 26, 2020 by 473geo

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, 473geo said:

 

"Long gone are the glory days when the vast majority of tractors used on UK farms were built in UK factories.

Today, only CNH Industrial’s New Holland plant in Essex survives as a major tractor assembly centre, with JCB’s Fastrac production line near Cheadle, Staffordshire, being the only other source of UK-built tractors.

Further afield, Austria, France, Germany and Italy have managed to retain tractor production on a large scale, as have Japan and the United States – the latter being the source for the majority of the highest horsepower models used in Britain"

 

Source: Farmers Weekly

 

Thanks for confirming the information in my post; that the majority of tractors sold in the UK are American!

 

So what is your point?

[473geo]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

Thanks for confirming the information in my post; that the majority of tractors sold in the UK are American!

 

So what is your point?

It's ok I don't expect you to understand what you are reading - and have no intention of starting a discussion - sleep well

[bartender100]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Well it may surprise you but in many instances, the French view is that E.U. was run by Germany and the United Kingdom. 

 

France and the United Kingdom were not on the same page with European matters. 

 

Europe has already changed gear recently getting more ambitious and united, not only with the English influence gone, but also Trump and Covid-19. 

While we are on the French view, don't you think you should worry more about what's going on in your own country right now than the UK?

 

Weekly demonstration in Paris and across France, riots and tear gas in the air, hundreds of arrests, the most unpopular French President in recent times

 

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20201128-anger-at-police-beating-galvanises-french-protests-against-security-bill

 

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/an-overwhelming-majority-in-france-is-unhappy-with-macron-42549

 

And this, maybe we are on the same page

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1278628/EU-news-France-opinion-poll-European-Union-Emmanuel-Macron-election-latest-update

 

People in glass houses, as they say

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, 473geo said:

It's ok I don't expect you to understand what you are reading - and have no intention of starting a discussion - sleep well

It is you who obviously lacks understanding, not I.

 

My article said that most of the tractors sold in the UK these days are American. Yours says the same thing!

 

Thank you, I will sleep well; but as it's only 6:30pm here in Blighty, not just yet!

Edited December 26, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Why? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

 

 

Who cares? 

[Hi from France]

29 minutes ago, bartender100 said:

Weekly demonstration in Paris and across France, riots and tear gas in the air, hundreds of arrests, the most unpopular French President in recent times

source ? To my knowledge, Macron popularity is up (by french standards)

[Hi from France]

Spanish article (you can use automatic translation)

 

If the UK starts cheating fair competition by lowering social or environmental standards, the EU can retaliate within 20 days

https://elpais.com/internacional/2020-12-25/la-ue-podra-adoptar-represalias-en-20-dias-si-el-reino-unido-se-desmarca-del-acuerdo.html

Edited December 26, 2020 by Hi from France

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

Spanish article (you can use automatic translation)

 

If the UK starts cheating fair competition by lowering social or environmental standards, the EU can retaliate within 20 days

https://elpais.com/internacional/2020-12-25/la-ue-podra-adoptar-represalias-en-20-dias-si-el-reino-unido-se-desmarca-del-acuerdo.html

You forgot to mention that the action can be taken by both parties not just the EU

Edited December 26, 2020 by vinny41
typo

[bartender100]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

source ? To my knowledge, Macron popularity is up (by french standards)

From 3 days ago

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/an-overwhelming-majority-in-france-is-unhappy-with-macron-42549

 

"The survey of French Institute of Public Opinion shows that the popularity and trustworthiness of Emmanuel Macron is on decline.

A recently conducted survey by the French Institute of Public Opinion (IFOP) revealed that 60 percent of French people are dissatisfied with President Emmanuel Macron and Prime Minister Jean Castex"

 

As I said worry about France not the 5th biggest economy in the world the UK

[Hi from France]

37 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You forgot to mention that the action can be taken by both parties not just the EU

right, and what if the UK decides to take protectionist measures ?

[Hi from France]

1 minute ago, bartender100 said:

From 3 days ago

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/an-overwhelming-majority-in-france-is-unhappy-with-macron-42549

 

"The survey of French Institute of Public Opinion shows that the popularity and trustworthiness of Emmanuel Macron is on decline.

A recently conducted survey by the French Institute of Public Opinion (IFOP) revealed that 60 percent of French people are dissatisfied with President Emmanuel Macron and Prime Minister Jean Castex"

 

As I said worry about France not the 5th biggest economy in the world the UK

 

this is right, but look closer at the poll analysis

Quote

La popularité d'Emmanuel Macron, à ce stade de son mandat, est supérieure à celle de ses prédécesseurs immédiats Nicolas Sarkozy (31%) et François Hollande (27%), selon cette étude.

translation

Quote

The popularity of Emmanuel Macron, at this stage of his mandate, is higher than that of his immediate predecessors Nicolas Sarkozy (31%) and François Hollande (27%), according to this study.

https://www.europe1.fr/politique/la-popularite-de-macron-et-castex-en-baisse-selon-un-sondage-4013602

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

right, and what if the UK decides to take protectionist measures ?

If either party takes  protectionist measures then a party can initiated the : Rebalancing as outlined in Article 9.4

it should be stated 

A Party’s assessment of these impacts shall be based on reliable evidence and not merely on conjecture or remote possibility.

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.

 

[simple1]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

The UK was increasingly unable to reject/renegotiate anything EU. The decisions that Parliament were able to make due to various treaty versions plus the primacy of EU law, successive loss of vetoes and QMV. The UK could only trade with other countries according to EU rules and agreements (if they had any).

 

The decision we were able to make was to leave. 

•  

 

In other words UK could trade with other nations if EU agreements not already in-place, not as another member alleged, UK could not trade with any country outside of EU arrangements.

 

Is HMG 'free' of EU legislation? No...

 

Those who think the UK will be able to kiss goodbye to all ties with the EU and EU law after Brexit are mistaken. Yes, the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (EU(W)A) repeals the European Communities Act 1972 which gives effect to the principles of direct effect (enforceability) of EU law and supremacy of EU law. However, the EU(W)A also ensures that all EU law becomes part of UK law as ‘retained EU law’.

 

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/where-does-brexit-leave-uk-law/

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

If either party takes  protectionist measures then a party can initiated the : Rebalancing as outlined in Article 9.4

it should be stated 

A Party’s assessment of these impacts shall be based on reliable evidence and not merely on conjecture or remote possibility.

no what I mean is: the deal does give equal rights, but still the 'rapport de force' is not balanced

• If the EU does passes a regulation the UK doesn't like or doesn't want to follow, the UK can close its market
• If the UK does passes a regulation the EU doesn't like or doesn't want to follow, the EU can close its market

do you see what I mean? The EU single market is 5 to 6 times bigger, even if NI and Scotland remain in the UK in the future.

 

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

38 minutes ago, simple1 said:

In other words UK could trade with other nations if EU agreements not already in-place, not as another member alleged, UK could not trade with any country outside of EU arrangements.

Read the Lisbon Treaty and its effects.

 

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2011/june/tradoc_147977.pdf

 

All trade agreements must be approved by  Parliament to be ratified.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

 

And the Treaty of Rome.

 

https://www.oecd.org/economy/growth/1886277.pdf

 

https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/european-issues/0502-the-eu-s-trade-policy-and-new-challenges

 

So you could not trade outside the EU without the EU's permission. One of the major reasons and benefits for Brexit, so the UK can trade with other countries without asking for the EU's parliaments permission

Edited December 26, 2020 by Laughing Gravy

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

no what I mean is: the deal does give equal rights, but still the 'rapport de force' is not balanced

• If the EU does passes a regulation the UK doesn't like or doesn't want to follow, the UK can close its market
• If the UK does passes a regulation the EU doesn't like or doesn't want to follow, the EU can close its market

do you see what I mean? The EU single market is 5 to 6 times bigger, even if NI and Scotland remain in the UK in the future.

 

 

 

I suggest you read the draft agreement  link is here

https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement_en

 

As for NI and Scotland it will be decades before they become members of the EU, unless the EU ignore their own rules like they did for Greece

But I suspect the EU  frugal  five will ensure that doesn't happen 

[Hi from France]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I suggest you read the draft agreement  link is here

https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement_en 

Just quote the part which disproves my point, I'm not reading 1256 pages ????

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Hi from France said:

Just quote the part which disproves my point, I'm not reading 1256 pages ????

if you don't read the document then you don't know if your point is correct or not

[Hi from France]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

if you don't read the document then you don't know if your point is correct or not

I gave a source a few posts away that actually backs my claim and I'm not sure how you can back yours. 

 

Now I'm completely open to discuss this if you can give us something precise on my claim that albeit rights are reciprocal, consequences of exercising them for each party are not. 

 

Really 

 

. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Hi from France