Explainer: Can anything stop Trump from pardoning his family or even himself?

[mlmcleod]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

Trump’s children have not been accused of any criminal wrongdoing, and it is unclear what Trump would pardon them for.

Acting as an accessory to Trump is a crime and should be punished.  I think Trump should paint his children as the disgraces they are by giving them pardons.

The framers of the constitution never dreamed that an American president would be a criminal or that he would pardon individuals for all their offenses during his term.  They were looking at George Washington when they drafted the constitution not Trump!

[moogradod]

34 minutes ago, stevenl said:

"Is there no mechanism in place to stop a president if he is or is becoming apparently insane"

There is, but Congress has refused to act. Article 25.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Aha. So they are coming together before any supposed retaliation strike. ????

 

24 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

There isn't a red button in a drawer of the Resolute Desk that when pressed sends all the nukes hither and yonder. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

Of course "The Button" is just a picture DT used in a conversation with the Rocket Man. But there must be something, key, keys plus button etc. somewhere, in the famous carrying case for example. Does not really matter where, does it ? I can sleep well nevertheless, but I remember to have read that some White House staff member was quoted saying that "..this might not end up well..." in view of the behaviour DT is showing concerning various things. There is a potential to mess up a lot - not only nuke somebody.

[Pique Dard]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

Can anything stop Trump from pardoning his family or even himself?

impossible! trump is deaf and reportedly never reads newspapers or books

[PattayaJames]

 

1 hour ago, mlmcleod said:

Acting as an accessory to Trump is a crime and should be punished.  I think Trump should paint his children as the disgraces they are by giving them pardons.

 

Why stop at his children?

Anyone who voted for Trump surely is an accessory also.

Mr Biden's family are all such fine and upstanding people.

[Pique Dard]

now that the brexit is done, i'm pretty sure. next, boris johnson will go to the hairdresser to have his hair done

[PattayaJames]

44 minutes ago, Pique Dard said:

now that the brexit is done, i'm pretty sure. next, boris johnson will go to the hairdresser to have his hair done

 

Doubt it, hair salons are closed, COVID you know. 

Perhaps he will will now weigh in on the more important subject of whether Trump can pardon himself or his family for non existent crimes?

[simple1]

18 minutes ago, PattayaJames said:

<SNIP>

Perhaps he will will now weigh in on the more important subject of whether Trump can pardon himself or his family for non existent crimes?

 

A stretch to claim trump and family members have not committed crimes when they have a history of scams / fraud for which they have settled out of Court / fined. One would assume there will be plenty of activity by NY Courts regards further criminal prosecution once trump is removed from power with a great deal less tolerance for out of Court settlements.

Edited December 25, 2020 by simple1

[Elkski]

12 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Here's a 'reduction to the ridiculous' to show why the courts will rule that a President cannot pardon himself...

 

If a POTUS could pardon himself, President Joe Biden could execute 45 and his entire family, then simply say, "Pardon me".

 

In essence, such a power would create a monarch, not just above the law, but who is the law. The US specifically does not have a monarch. The Founders could have used the Magna Carta as a base document for the US, which states all are equal under the law except the monarch, but instead Madison and Jefferson wrote the Constitution.

 

Self-pardon will fail in the courts.

 

The pre-emptive pardon may also fail in the courts. Ford's pardon of Nixon was not challenged, so there is not a legal precedent (Nixon wasn't charged with a crime, so his pardon was pre-emptive, just never challenged.). Such a thing, if 45 decides to use it on his grifting family, is fraught with danger. It means ANYONE working for the government, including those with access to classified intelligence, could spend 4 years obtaining and selling intel to, for example, Russia, China or iran, even sharing some of the money with the POTUS, and then POTUS could pre-emptively pardon them (if the crime hasn't come out yet) and pardon himself.

 

The courts will not want to US to go down that rabbithole.

 

As for the pardons already given to convicted felons manafort, stone and flynn, they are not out of the woods yet. Because they were pardoned, they cannot incriminate themselves, so they cannot refuse to answer questions put to them by a grand jury. If asked about 45, what he did and what he knew, they must answer. If they fail to do so, they can be held in contempt, which would be a new charge for which they could face jail time. If they lie, that's perjury, also a new crime for which they can be jailed.

 

In a sense, 45 shot himself in the foot, because the pardons may lead to his own indictment, conviction and incarceration at the Federal level, not just what the NY AG has in store for him. For example, manafort could be asked if he was ever promised a pardon if he kept his mouth shut. If he answers 'yes', that proves the obstruction Mueller noted in his report, and the sole thing preventing Mueller from indicting 45 was the silly OLC 'opinion' which says a sitting POTUS cannot be indicted. After 20 January 45 will not be the 'sitting POTUS'. If manafort refuses to answer that question, it's contempt. If he answers with a lie, it's perjury.

 

On 20 January the US gets a real AG again. That new AG will serve the people, not the POTUS. After 20 January it would not be a good time to be 45 or any member of his family or wider crime family. It can be called a crime family accurately because of all the close associates of 45 who were indicted, tried and convicted of crimes.

 Too bad Joe doesn't have ball's this big

[Nout]

12 hours ago, canthai55 said:

People are surprised by this ?

The man is a criminal - always was, always will be.

 

 

Most USA Presidents could be perceived as criminals.

[Paul Henry]

If this man and his family  were not  criminals there would be no need for discussions about pardons. If he tries to  pardon himself and his family he is admitting they have all committed criminal acts. However there are many ways to skin a cat! He will be held accountable!

[sirineou]

9 minutes ago, Paul Henry said:

If this man and his family  were not  criminals there would be no need for discussions about pardons. If he tries to  pardon himself and his family he is admitting they have all committed criminal acts. However there are many ways to skin a cat! He will be held accountable!

He will simply say, that he is pardoning himself to protect himself from from unfair prosecution from the deep state that stole the election and is now trying to steal the USA from his poor also persecuted and discriminated against base, and guess what, they will probably send him another 200 million dollars. 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed.  

 

[Chomper Higgot]

A question yet to be answered is: will Trump

issue himself a pardon or will he resign and get Pence to issue him a pardon?

 

I’m of the opinion his narcissism will prevent him taking the second option and that he will issue himself a pardon.

 

I rather hope he takes that option given that a self pardon is far more likely to be defeated in the SCOTUS.

[Walker88]

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A question yet to be answered is: will Trump

issue himself a pardon or will he resign and get Pence to issue him a pardon?

 

I’m of the opinion his narcissism will prevent him taking the second option and that he will issue himself a pardon.

 

I rather hope he takes that option given that a self pardon is far more likely to be defeated in the SCOTUS.

You seem to still possess the belief, or hope, that such a thing as a decent member of that Administration exists. Honest mistake.

 

Pence is interested in running in 2024. He might promise, crossing his fingers, that he would pardon 45 if 45 resigned, but more likely he'd play Lucy with the football, pulling it away and fooling Charlie Brown.  No pardon gets rid of 45 in '24, if he isn't already in jail on State charges.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

You seem to still possess the belief, or hope, that such a thing as a decent member of that Administration exists. Honest mistake.

 

Pence is interested in running in 2024. He might promise, crossing his fingers, that he would pardon 45 if 45 resigned, but more likely he'd play Lucy with the football, pulling it away and fooling Charlie Brown.  No pardon gets rid of 45 in '24, if he isn't already in jail on State charges.

Well no, I don’t dismiss the idea Pence would pull a fast one, rather I think Trump is hobbled by two facets of his narcissism:

 

1. he doesn’t trust anyone.

2. He believes he’s smarter than everyone.

 

 

[onebir]

16 hours ago, webfact said:

Under the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, individuals can decline to speak to investigators if doing so might lead to self-incrimination. If someone receives a pardon and no longer faces legal jeopardy on the federal level, it may make it more difficult for them to assert this constitutional right.

 

However, since a presidential pardon applies only to federal crimes, pardon recipients can still lawfully refuse to cooperate if the conduct they have been pardoned for can also be prosecuted as a state crime.

So could this turn out to be Trump's downfall, if 'pardonees' questioned as accessories in investigations of Trump,  are unable to 'plead the 5th' & therefore risk committing contempt or obstruction of justice, after the date of the pardon, if they refuse to spill the beans on him? (Not to mention if they're investigated under state law.)

 

That'd be a strangely apt twist of fate...

[joecoolfrog]

12 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

That's what I don't get.  These MAGA people are OK with this, but bash Hunter for bogus junk.  I don't get it.  Trump pardoned Kushner's father who threatened a witness!!!  Tried and convicted.  And MAGA people are OK with this.

Yep , delusion and hypocrisy are a potent mix.

[joecoolfrog]

8 hours ago, PattayaJames said:

 

 

Why stop at his children?

Anyone who voted for Trump surely is an accessory also.

Mr Biden's family are all such fine and upstanding people.

This is all getting a tad abstract , the point is ; Nobody should be above the law , presidential pardons are an outdated concept ,seriously open to corruption and should be scrapped.

Simple answer please , do you agree or not ?

[Stargeezr]

There are ways and means to keep Trump from pardoning himself, but none are good.  In fact the methods are all bad.   I will just be happy after January 21st, as Trump will be having a much more interesting life style, with all the people who are not his supporters. There are a lot of them out there and some of them are as powerful as he will be after the 21st.   Good Luck Donald, you will need it all.  ha ha ha

Geezer

[bendejo]

Maybe I've missed it, but has he pardoned anyone who has not been officially charged yet? 

Is it possible for him to issue what I guess would be called a "plenary pardon" that would absolve the recipient of any crime, past or future?  If so, this would create a whole new class of people who are permitted to live beyond the law.  I could see his clan holding up liquor stores as a sport, with impunity, if they don't get killed in the process.

 

But perhaps this answers my own question:

Quote

Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1915), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that:

A pardoned person must introduce the pardon into court proceedings, otherwise the pardon must be disregarded by the court.

To do this, the pardoned person must accept the pardon. If a pardon is rejected, it cannot be forced upon its subject.

A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual on whom it is bestowed from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed. It is the private though official act of the executive magistrate, delivered to the individual for whose benefit it is intended.... A private deed, not communicated to him, whatever may be its character, whether a pardon or release, is totally unknown and cannot be acted on.[1]

United States v. Wilson established that it is possible to reject a (conditional) pardon, even for a capital sentence. Burdick affirmed that the same principle extends to unconditional pardons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States

 

But I do not recall Nixon "introduc[ing]  the pardon into court proceedings."

Quote

After Ford left the White House in 1977, he privately justified his pardon of Nixon by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of Burdick v. United States, a 1915 U.S. Supreme Court decision that stated that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt and that its acceptance carries a confession of guilt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Richard_Nixon

 

So, in order for him to self-pardon, he'll have to fess up to a court.  Or can he pardon himself for making an unacceptable pardon? 

 

 

[bendejo]

15 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Columnist E Jean Carroll accuses Mr Trump of assaulting her in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s.

 

This is going to be a rude awaking for DT when he's out of office.  He won't be able to stalk women in the tony Fifth Avenue stores any more, cramping his "grab 'em by the _ussy" style.  When I worked in a famous NYC theatre when I was a teenager, guys like this were called mashers, we had a security guy who specialized this type of creep.  If he does, it will be interesting to see how his full-time Secret Service detail handles it, especially the female agents.

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.

 

[ChakaKhan]

23 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I presume you'd feel the same if some cop or Fed offered you the Fifth Amendment...shows how much you understand the law. 

I wouldnt be taking the 5th if I was innocent, Truth needs no support, but please, feel free to enlighten us Matlock. Since when do cops or Feds "Offer" someone the 5th?...I'll be waiting..

Edited December 26, 2020 by ChakaKhan

[KhunFred]

If a pardon only covers federal crimes, a pardon is a moot point. Most all of Trump's charges are state charges.

[Walker88]

I wonder if 45 will pardon his proud boy supporters who stabbed some people because they were upset 45 couldn't steal the election where he got his butt handed to him?

 

Those 'stand back and stand by' folks 45 likes so much sport a meme on their org's jerseys that reads 6MWE.

 

Do you know what that means?

 

"Six million weren't enough"

 

Must be 'some very fine people' on that side, like those 45 dubbed 'some very fine' who marched through Charlottesville carrying tikitorches and chanting "Jews will not replace us".

[Berkshire]

40 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

If a pardon only covers federal crimes, a pardon is a moot point. Most all of Trump's charges are state charges.

Yes, but there's no telling what will be unearthed regarding what Trump has been up to these last 4 yrs.  Some legal analysts have already opined that some of these pardons may constitute obstruction of justice and bribery.   Manafort was promised a pardon if he refused to cooperate with investigators.  He didn't and Trump carried out the bribe.  It wouldn't be much different if Trump told him he'd pay him $10 million if Manafort didn't rat him out. 

[mtls2005]

Probably safer to host pardon-palooza for family, friends, maybe even throw one in for MBS? (Foreigners are eligible.) "Everyone gets a pardon."

 

Then resign and play the Pence Card? 

 

So Pence is 46 and Joe is 47.

 

All this assumes he doesn't start a shooting war with Iran.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by mtls2005

[Scott]

Post from an unattributed social media source removed.

 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

Yes, but there's no telling what will be unearthed regarding what Trump has been up to these last 4 yrs.  Some legal analysts have already opined that some of these pardons may constitute obstruction of justice and bribery.   Manafort was promised a pardon if he refused to cooperate with investigators.  He didn't and Trump carried out the bribe.  It wouldn't be much different if Trump told him he'd pay him $10 million if Manafort didn't rat him out. 

Let's hope something comes out of this.  Stunning some are OK with these pardons, and the crimes committed by Trump and his inner circle.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/kushner-attorney-investigated-in-alleged-bribery-for-pardon-scheme-2020-12

 

 

Attorney for Jared Kushner and a Trump fundraiser investigated by DOJ in alleged bribery-for-pardon scheme

 

• The US Department of Justice investigated an attorney for Jared Kushner in connection with an alleged bribery-for-pardon scheme, The New York Times reported.
• As Business Insider reported, a US judge released documents this week showing that federal investigators were concerned about an alleged "bribery conspiracy scheme" to obtain a presidential pardon.
• According to The Times' reporting, the suspected scheme involved a billionaire real estate developer, Sanford Diller, who sought to secure clemency for a man named Hugh Baras, who had been convicted of tax evasion.

[Jim1000]

Seem to remember that Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich and it caused a bit of a stir at the time !