Explainer: Impeachment or the 14th Amendment: -Can Trump be barred from future office?

[webfact]

Explainer: Impeachment or the 14th Amendment: -and Trump be barred from future office?

By Jan Wolfe

 

FILE PHOTO: U.S. President Donald Trump speaks during a visit at the U.S.-Mexico border wall, in Alamo, Texas, U.S., January 12, 2021. REUTERS/Carlos Barria/File Photo

 

(Reuters) - Some U.S. lawmakers have said President Donald Trump should be disqualified from holding political office again following his impeachment on Wednesday for inciting a mob that stormed the Capitol as lawmakers were certifying President-elect Joe Biden's victory.

 

Now that the House has impeached Trump, the Senate will hold a trial on whether to remove him and possibly bar him from future office.

 

Legal experts said disqualification could be accomplished through the impeachment proceedings or the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

 

Here is how the disqualification effort could play out.

 

CAN TRUMP'S DISQUALIFICATION BE ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH IMPEACHMENT?

   

The U.S. Constitution says there are two ways to punish an impeached official: removal from office or “disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States."

 

The House approved a single article of impeachment accusing Trump of inciting insurrection when he delivered an incendiary speech to supporters shortly before the pro-Trump mob rampaged the Capitol.

 

Trump is likely to argue at trial that his remarks were free speech protected by the Constitution's First Amendment and that, while he told supporters to "fight," he did not intend it as a literal call to violence.

 

Removing an official requires a "conviction" by a two-thirds Senate majority under the Constitution. Under precedent, only a simple majority is needed for disqualification. Historically, that vote only happens after a conviction.

 

Three federal officials in U.S. history have been disqualified through impeachment proceedings. All three were federal judges.

 

Most recently, in 2010 the Senate removed and disqualified from future office a Louisiana judge found to have engaged in corruption.

 

There is some debate over the scope of the disqualification clause and whether it applies to the presidency, said Brian Kalt, a law professor at Michigan State University.

 

Analyzing historical documents, some law experts say the founders did not intend the presidency to be considered an "office" under the disqualification clause, while others argue that the term applies.

 

CAN TRUMP BE DISQUALIFIED IF HE IS NOT CONVICTED BY THE SENATE?

 

This is uncharted legal territory, and there is no clear answer, scholars said.

 

Paul Campos, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Colorado, said he believed a vote to disqualify Trump can be held even if there are not enough votes for conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that the Senate has wide latitude to determine how it conducts a trial, he said.

 

But Kalt said he thought disqualification would require conviction first. To do otherwise would be the equivalent of punishing the president for an offense he did not commit, Kalt said.

 

All three judges who were disqualified from office were first convicted.

 

WHAT ABOUT THE 14TH AMENDMENT?

 

Section 3 of the 14th Amendment provides an alternative path for disqualification.

 

The provision states that no person shall hold office if they have engaged in "insurrection or rebellion" against the United States. It was enacted following the Civil War to bar Confederates from holding public office.

 

Under congressional precedent, only a simple majority of both chambers is need to invoke this penalty. Congress can later remove the disqualification, but only if two-thirds of both houses vote in favor of doing so.

 

In 1919, Congress used the 14th Amendment to block an elected official, Victor Berger, from assuming his seat in the House because he had actively opposed U.S. intervention in World War I.

 

The text of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does not explain how it should be invoked.

 

Another section the 14th Amendment, Section 5, empowers Congress to enforce the entire amendment through "appropriate legislation.” Some scholars have interpreted this language to mean that a majority of both chambers of Congress could enact a law applying a ban to a particular president, like Trump.

 

"The 14th Amendment route is very unclear as to what it would take to get it rolling," said Kalt. "I think it would require some combination of legislation and litigation."

 

COULD TRUMP CHALLENGE A DISQUALIFICATION IN COURT?

 

It is certainly possible, said Kalt.

 

A Supreme Court case from 1993 makes clear that the court is wary of second-guessing how the Senate handles impeachment. In that case, involving an accused judge, the court said whether the Senate had properly tried an impeachment was a political question and could not be litigated.

 

If Trump is disqualified, the current Supreme Court might want to clarify whether the move was lawful, Kalt said.

 

Trump appointed three of the Supreme Court's nine members: Justices Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and most recently Amy Coney Barrett. The court now has a six-judge conservative majority.

 

"If you are going to say someone can't run, you want to get that litigated and settled sooner rather than later," Kalt said.

(Reporting by Jan Wolfe; Editing by Noeleen Walder and Aurora Ellis)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2021-01-14

 

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[trainman34014]

The Man should have been big enough to have put the country first and resigned already; he has been stoking the fires of dicontent since the Election because his great big fat head and overburdening ego just can't take the hit.

 

Still; one thing is for sure, he won't be getting another chance after this lot.

[pegman]

45 minutes ago, trainman34014 said:

The Man should have been big enough to have put the country first and resigned already; he has been stoking the fires of dicontent since the Election because his great big fat head and overburdening ego just can't take the hit.

 

Still; one thing is for sure, he won't be getting another chance after this lot.

Don't be so sure. I saw a poll where 2/3 of republican supporters stated they would vote for him in the 2024 primary 

[1Gringo]

1 hour ago, pegman said:

Don't be so sure. I saw a poll where 2/3 of republican supporters stated they would vote for him in the 2024 primary 

that doesn't mean he can win and I don't think he will be able to.  but disqualification can make this a moot point and I hope the Senate goes that way.

[jaiyen]

Wait till he gets back to Trump Tower and sees how many of his investments have gone tits up too ! He is not going to be a happy man. Then again, he never is !

[Sujo]

25 minutes ago, jaiyen said:

Wait till he gets back to Trump Tower and sees how many of his investments have gone tits up too ! He is not going to be a happy man. Then again, he never is !

New York is stopping all contracts with trump.

[pegman]

59 minutes ago, jaiyen said:

Wait till he gets back to Trump Tower and sees how many of his investments have gone tits up too ! He is not going to be a happy man. Then again, he never is !

 I believe he is persona non grata in New York City. The governor a while back stated that Trump would need an army to protect him in his hometown. 

[Eric Loh]

18 minutes ago, pegman said:

 I believe he is persona non grata in New York City. The governor a while back stated that Trump would need an army to protect him in his hometown. 

He is entitled by law to secret service protection but if congress convict him either by vote or 14th amendment, he lose all the entitlements including protection and will have to pay for the protection. That will be sweet karma. 

[Srikcir]

Congressional ban from running for any federal office may be irrelevant.

If Manhattan District Attorney has his way, Trump will be convicted for tax fraud, tax evasion and/or insurance fraud having potential moderate jail terms. However, a convicted felon can run for POTUS, assuming he's free before the 2024 party presidential primary election.

But might have to abandon any "law & order" platform.

[spidermike007]

A few considerations:

1. Few like a loser. If they did not know Trump was a loser before, they sure will know it once he leaves the White House, and returns to his failing business.

2. I believe he will soon be forgotten. Just a terribly bad memory.

3. There is virtually no chance of him winning in 2024. I have been wrong before. But, as time goes on, he will become more and more irrelevant. Hopefully.

4. Without Twitter, FB, Instagram and Youtube, he is a 305 lb. zero.

5. There is a general assumption his physical and mental health keeps up. It appears over the past 6 months or so, both are on a serious decline. He will be 78 or 79 in 2024. And he is NOT healthy.

6. Lastly, the GOP will likely not stick with him, after he is gone. At least, if they are sane and have some reason.

7. It is likely that the only ones with more skeletons in their closets, are Papuan Highlander cannibals. Tax fraud? The SDNY could get a conviction. Let us hope and pray for that.

 

8. Contrary to the self created myth, Trump can barely negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Just think of how many have gotten over on him, and taken advantage of his lack of skill and prowess, in the past few years. Putin, Xi, Kim, MBS, and countless others. Now, the leaked tax returns paint the rest of the sorry picture. 17 major business failures! Possibly a record. And financial losses for decades. Unless he is lying to the IRS too. Very possible. 

 

9. His base has been dwindling since the election. Alot of conservative friends and family I have been speaking with, agree Biden won, and the fraud thing is a bit much, and a sure sign of a sore loser. I think the DC fiasco backfired for sure, and he lost alot of his "middle of the road, sensible, hard working, decent people" base. 

 

10. It is an astonishing thing, to witness a man who was already psychologically unstable, completely come unhinged. He is rambling and incoherent in his speech now, utterly desperate, and increasingly dangerous. There should be some national security laws in place, that allow Trump to be locked up in jail, until the 20th. He is a dangerous man, and a threat to the nation. And as far as charging the Trump rioters with serious charges, I have no issue with that. But, only a small percentage of the ones who broke into the capital building were arrested. I am hoping many are found, and charged with sedition. They deserve that. 

 

[pedro01]

6 hours ago, 1Gringo said:

that doesn't mean he can win and I don't think he will be able to.  but disqualification can make this a moot point and I hope the Senate goes that way.

 

Just to be clear.

 

You think there is an off-chance that democracy will vote in Trump again and you want the people in power now to prevent democracy taking place if that is the outcome?

[pedro01]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

A few considerations:

1. Few like a loser. If they did not know Trump was a loser before, they sure will know it once he leaves the White House, and returns to his failing business.

2. I believe he will soon be forgotten. Just a terribly bad memory.

3. There is virtually no chance of him winning in 2024. I have been wrong before. But, as time goes on, he will become more and more irrelevant. Hopefully.

4. Without Twitter, FB, Instagram and Youtube, he is a 305 lb. zero.

5. There is a general assumption his physical and mental health keeps up. It appears over the past 6 months or so, both are on a serious decline. He will be 78 or 79 in 2024. And he is NOT healthy.

6. Lastly, the GOP will likely not stick with him, after he is gone. At least, if they are sane and have some reason.

7. It is likely that the only ones with more skeletons in their closets, are Papuan Highlander cannibals. Tax fraud? The SDNY could get a conviction. Let us hope and pray for that.

 

8. Contrary to the self created myth, Trump can barely negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Just think of how many have gotten over on him, and taken advantage of his lack of skill and prowess, in the past few years. Putin, Xi, Kim, MBS, and countless others. Now, the leaked tax returns paint the rest of the sorry picture. 17 major business failures! Possibly a record. And financial losses for decades. Unless he is lying to the IRS too. Very possible. 

 

9. His base has been dwindling since the election. Alot of conservative friends and family I have been speaking with, agree Biden won, and the fraud thing is a bit much, and a sure sign of a sore loser. I think the DC fiasco backfired for sure, and he lost alot of his "middle of the road, sensible, hard working, decent people" base. 

 

10. It is an astonishing thing, to witness a man who was already psychologically unstable, completely come unhinged. He is rambling and incoherent in his speech now, utterly desperate, and increasingly dangerous. There should be some national security laws in place, that allow Trump to be locked up in jail, until the 20th. He is a dangerous man, and a threat to the nation. And as far as charging the Trump rioters with serious charges, I have no issue with that. But, only a small percentage of the ones who broke into the capital building were arrested. I am hoping many are found, and charged with sedition. They deserve that. 

 

 

The problem is that he will only be forgotten if people stop talking about him.

 

These actions perpetuate the Trump political brand. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

You think there is an off-chance that democracy will vote in Trump again and you want the people in power now to prevent democracy taking place if that is the outcome?

That’s what the US did with Hitler. In both cases it’s justified, and for similar reasons. I suggest you don’t pretend to be more stupid than we think a Trump fanboy is. 

[Sakeopete]

2024 will depend on how bad the economy is and if the republicans can find dirt on Biden. Say what you will about Trump, however as soon as he was sworn in the US economy boomed. Some argued that it was because Obama's policies but you can't argue the results. Honestly the only reason Trump lost was because of the pandemic. His other faults were just annoying but his policies were not bad. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, Sakeopete said:

2024 will depend on how bad the economy is and if the republicans can find dirt on Biden. Say what you will about Trump, however as soon as he was sworn in the US economy boomed. Some argued that it was because Obama's policies but you can't argue the results. Honestly the only reason Trump lost was because of the pandemic. His other faults were just annoying but his policies were not bad. 

He did policies between tweeting and golfing? 

[spidermike007]

14 hours ago, pedro01 said:

 

The problem is that he will only be forgotten if people stop talking about him.

 

These actions perpetuate the Trump political brand. 

Nobody likes a perpetual loser. He has lost so much over the past 4 years, if boggles the mind. And once he is gone from the White House, without social media to constantly remind people of him, and his nonsensical juvenile diatribes, he will be forgotten, and will be relegated to the dustbin of history. One can only hope the media stops reporting on him, unless it is in regard to the trials he is facing on his many felony crimes. 

[ChouDoufu]

On 1/14/2021 at 6:10 PM, spidermike007 said:

A few considerations:

1. Few like a loser. If they did not know Trump was a loser before, they sure will know it once he leaves the White House, and returns to his failing business.

2. I believe he will soon be forgotten. Just a terribly bad memory.

3. There is virtually no chance of him winning in 2024. I have been wrong before. But, as time goes on, he will become more and more irrelevant. Hopefully.

4. Without Twitter, FB, Instagram and Youtube, he is a 305 lb. zero.

5. There is a general assumption his physical and mental health keeps up. It appears over the past 6 months or so, both are on a serious decline. He will be 78 or 79 in 2024. And he is NOT healthy.

6. Lastly, the GOP will likely not stick with him, after he is gone. At least, if they are sane and have some reason.

7. It is likely that the only ones with more skeletons in their closets, are Papuan Highlander cannibals. Tax fraud? The SDNY could get a conviction. Let us hope and pray for that.

 

8. Contrary to the self created myth, Trump can barely negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Just think of how many have gotten over on him, and taken advantage of his lack of skill and prowess, in the past few years. Putin, Xi, Kim, MBS, and countless others. Now, the leaked tax returns paint the rest of the sorry picture. 17 major business failures! Possibly a record. And financial losses for decades. Unless he is lying to the IRS too. Very possible. 

 

9. His base has been dwindling since the election. Alot of conservative friends and family I have been speaking with, agree Biden won, and the fraud thing is a bit much, and a sure sign of a sore loser. I think the DC fiasco backfired for sure, and he lost alot of his "middle of the road, sensible, hard working, decent people" base. 

 

10. It is an astonishing thing, to witness a man who was already psychologically unstable, completely come unhinged. He is rambling and incoherent in his speech now, utterly desperate, and increasingly dangerous. There should be some national security laws in place, that allow Trump to be locked up in jail, until the 20th. He is a dangerous man, and a threat to the nation. And as far as charging the Trump rioters with serious charges, I have no issue with that. But, only a small percentage of the ones who broke into the capital building were arrested. I am hoping many are found, and charged with sedition. They deserve that. 

 

 

trump will not be attending the inauguration, will be flying to florida that morning.  this is apparently the first time the incoming and outgoing presidents were not together at handover.

 

the pentagon will have to provide TWO footballs, one for trump to take with to florida, the other for the new president.

 

biden will get a fresh biscuit (with the nukular codes), trump's biscuit will expire at noon.

[spidermike007]

13 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

trump will not be attending the inauguration, will be flying to florida that morning.  this is apparently the first time the incoming and outgoing presidents were not together at handover.

 

the pentagon will have to provide TWO footballs, one for trump to take with to florida, the other for the new president.

 

biden will get a fresh biscuit (with the nukular codes), trump's biscuit will expire at noon.

 

Trump is simply a sore loser, behaving like the loser he has always been. Nothing more could have been expected out of him. Decorum, grace, dignity, honor, patriotism, loyalty to the nation, elegance, and the ability to do the right thing are just not in his nature, nor part of his M.O. 

 

The incitement to riot the capital, was an enormous miscalculation, and an act of sheer desperation by an unhinged madman. Now, with the permanent ban on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, he is almost a 305lb. zero. Almost. I predict his influence will continue to wane, once he is ingloriously ushered out of the white house in humiliation. 

Trump incited a riot. He has no limits of civility or temperance. And the more extremist nitwits within his base take what he says as literally as some fundamentalists take the Bible. Add in nutters like Cruz and Hawley, (small minded men just jockeying for a powerful future position) and you have a near civil war. Fair to intervene? Or just sit back, and let it happen? I think what FB and Twitter did was glorious, wise, and upholds the republic. I never in a million years thought Dorsey or Zuck would have the cajones to do this. Now Youtube too. Good on them!

Nearly anything with Trump's name on it, and his association with it, fails. And that will be even more so, after he leaves the White House. His name will remain radioactive, the the rest of his life, and the mini empire will continue to dwindle. He lost 17 major businesses. He lost 19 merchandising deals, since being elected. He lost the trade war with China, and the negotiations with Kim. What part of being a loser don't his supporters understand? Corporations will continue to shun him, for the rest of his sorry life. No more management deals, ever. People claim he profited from the presidency. I think the opposite is true. It ruined him. Considering the fact that it appears he has been losing money for a very, very long time now, it is going to be a hard road for him and his family. No investors, no more bank loans, toxic real estate (unless he changes the names, and removes his from the property and people forget, which is unlikely) and hopefully great legal peril face him now. He deserves all of that misery.

 

 

[pegman]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Trump is simply a sore loser, behaving like the loser he has always been. Nothing more could have been expected out of him. Decorum, grace, dignity, honor, patriotism, loyalty to the nation, elegance, and the ability to do the right thing are just not in his nature, nor part of his M.O. 

 

The incitement to riot the capital, was an enormous miscalculation, and an act of sheer desperation by an unhinged madman. Now, with the permanent ban on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, he is almost a 305lb. zero. Almost. I predict his influence will continue to wane, once he is ingloriously ushered out of the white house in humiliation. 

Trump incited a riot. He has no limits of civility or temperance. And the more extremist nitwits within his base take what he says as literally as some fundamentalists take the Bible. Add in nutters like Cruz and Hawley, (small minded men just jockeying for a powerful future position) and you have a near civil war. Fair to intervene? Or just sit back, and let it happen? I think what FB and Twitter did was glorious, wise, and upholds the republic. I never in a million years thought Dorsey or Zuck would have the cajones to do this. Now Youtube too. Good on them!

Nearly anything with Trump's name on it, and his association with it, fails. And that will be even more so, after he leaves the White House. His name will remain radioactive, the the rest of his life, and the mini empire will continue to dwindle. He lost 17 major businesses. He lost 19 merchandising deals, since being elected. He lost the trade war with China, and the negotiations with Kim. What part of being a loser don't his supporters understand? Corporations will continue to shun him, for the rest of his sorry life. No more management deals, ever. People claim he profited from the presidency. I think the opposite is true. It ruined him. Considering the fact that it appears he has been losing money for a very, very long time now, it is going to be a hard road for him and his family. No investors, no more bank loans, toxic real estate (unless he changes the names, and removes his from the property and people forget, which is unlikely) and hopefully great legal peril face him now. He deserves all of that misery.

 

 

The family may have to do a name makeover once again. Frump? As for running for office Pew Research has him @ 29% approval. Has any president ever been that low?

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/01/15/biden-begins-presidency-with-positive-ratings-trump-departs-with-lowest-ever-job-mark/

[Rimmer]

A misleading troll post and two replies have been removed:

 

2) You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.
 

[Opl]

Hasn't been Trump testing the Constitution and monetizing lies from day1, totally under the " We the people" watch, and for some, consent if not full absolution?      

[cdemundo]

On 1/14/2021 at 5:07 AM, pedro01 said:

 

Just to be clear.

 

You think there is an off-chance that democracy will vote in Trump again and you want the people in power now to prevent democracy taking place if that is the outcome?

 

Yes.  For obvious reasons.

[Walker88]

He's done. He lost the election badly, and even his base, who have been lied to and hold the delusion that he won, will see on 20 January that he is gone. That makes him a loser. A good many of them are still convinced he won't be gone on 20 Jan. He will, and they will be forced to see that reality.

 

As his businesses fail, it is likely he will have to declare bankruptcy again. He might try to make himself the victim, but he will be seen as a loser. A bankrupt loser.

 

IMO, his health will deteriorate rapidly, as he has lived his life in a bubble where he could pretend he was everything he lacked the skill and brains to be. His election loss, and his likely coming business collapse will not give him any way to hide the fact that not only is he a loser (he knows that, I assume), but also that everyone else now sees him for the loser he is. THAT will crush him. I doubt he will be rational come 2024, and that assumes he will still be alive.

 

The problem is that his base is still out there. They are insane, deluded, and they are violent, as the events of 6 January demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt. It doesn't seem as if there is anyone who can step in and be their new messiah, but they remain dangerous as lone wolves a la tim mcveigh. They are likely to go after soft targets, just as mcveigh did.

 

The Congress will have to designate groups like proud boys, boogaloo boys, three percenters, oathkeepers, etc., as terrorist groups, because that will allow the FBI to use tactics it can use against foreign terrorists, but not now against terror groups of US Persons. The terrorist designation would allow them to go at proud boys, etc., the same way they go at al Qaeda or ISIS.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Walker88

[Lacessit]

On 1/14/2021 at 12:42 PM, pegman said:

Don't be so sure. I saw a poll where 2/3 of republican supporters stated they would vote for him in the 2024 primary 

In Australia, the situation is known as wedge politics. The Democrats are putting the Republicans between a rock and a hard place.

Those that support Trump in Congress and in the Senate are losing all their political donations, which makes it harder to be re-elected. Those that vote for Trump's impeachment have alienated his supporter base, again with the same result.

It's classic karma, the GOP is now being riven because they made a Faustian bargain.

[pegman]

20 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

He's done. He lost the election badly, and even his base, who have been lied to and hold the delusion that he won, will see on 20 January that he is gone. That makes him a loser. A good many of them are still convinced he won't be gone on 20 Jan. He will, and they will be forced to see that reality.

 

As his businesses fail, it is likely he will have to declare bankruptcy again. He might try to make himself the victim, but he will be seen as a loser. A bankrupt loser.

 

IMO, his health will deteriorate rapidly, as he has lived his life in a bubble where he could pretend he was everything he lacked the skill and brains to be. His election loss, and his likely coming business collapse will not give him any way to hide the fact that not only is he a loser (he knows that, I assume), but also that everyone else now sees him for the loser he is. THAT will crush him. I doubt he will be rational come 2024, and that assumes he will still be alive.

 

The problem is that his base is still out there. They are insane, deluded, and they are violent, as the events of 6 January demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt. It doesn't seem as if there is anyone who can step in and be their new messiah, but they remain dangerous as lone wolves a la tim mcveigh. They are likely to go after soft targets, just as mcveigh did.

 

The Congress will have to designate groups like proud boys, boogaloo boys, three percenters, oathkeepers, etc., as terrorist groups, because that will allow the FBI to use tactics it can use against foreign terrorists, but not now against terror groups of US Persons. The terrorist designation would allow them to go at proud boys, etc., the same way they go at al Qaeda or ISIS.

If that means being permitted to extinguish those guys on sight I  say go for it.

[pedro01]

On 1/14/2021 at 8:19 PM, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s what the US did with Hitler. In both cases it’s justified, and for similar reasons. I suggest you don’t pretend to be more stupid than we think a Trump fanboy is. 

 

PMSL.

 

If you aren't sure if the person you are replying to is a Trump supporter - do the following just in case.

1 - Mention Hitler

2 - Call the poster stupid

3 - Call the poster a fan boy

 

The bottom line is that if the democratic process will vote Trump in again, then so be it. Anything else is an attempt to subvert democracy. The people that you disenfranchise by doing this will now have a cause.

 

Much better to let Trump fade away - UNLESS you see the next 4 years being so bad that the next election will be a lay-up for Trump.

 

As for "That's what the US did with Hitler" - my friend - Hitler was in power when he killed himself during WW2 - so no, the US did not in any way prevent Hitler from rising to power. You might want to pick up a history book before you repeat any historical facts. 

 

Bottom line is - you have to consider the following:

1. Why are the democrats so worried about Trump rising to power again? Do they honestly not have anyone better than him? Same goes for the Republican party.
2. If he is the people's choice - then the democratic process should be allowed to take place. Anything else is subverting democracy.
3. Politics in the US is becoming dirtier and dirtier. Whatever is done to Trump now, will be done to Biden/Harris when the Republicans gain power. This is why I don't think a president will every see his predecessor charged with a crime, it'll just hit them when they leave office.

The best thing that can happen now is to let Trump be Trump, not turn him into a martyr. He turned enough people against himself already. He'll continue to do that for the next 4 years and by the time the next election comes round, he'd be lucky to be voted as president of his own Golf Club.

[pedro01]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

He's done. He lost the election badly, and even his base, who have been lied to and hold the delusion that he won, will see on 20 January that he is gone. That makes him a loser. A good many of them are still convinced he won't be gone on 20 Jan. He will, and they will be forced to see that reality.

 

As his businesses fail, it is likely he will have to declare bankruptcy again. He might try to make himself the victim, but he will be seen as a loser. A bankrupt loser.

 

IMO, his health will deteriorate rapidly, as he has lived his life in a bubble where he could pretend he was everything he lacked the skill and brains to be. His election loss, and his likely coming business collapse will not give him any way to hide the fact that not only is he a loser (he knows that, I assume), but also that everyone else now sees him for the loser he is. THAT will crush him. I doubt he will be rational come 2024, and that assumes he will still be alive.

 

The problem is that his base is still out there. They are insane, deluded, and they are violent, as the events of 6 January demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt. It doesn't seem as if there is anyone who can step in and be their new messiah, but they remain dangerous as lone wolves a la tim mcveigh. They are likely to go after soft targets, just as mcveigh did.

 

I highlighted the key points here. 

 

He is a loser now, making him a martyr would be a massive error. 

[Walker88]

2 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

 

I highlighted the key points here. 

 

He is a loser now, making him a martyr would be a massive error. 

 

In my opinion, the worst thing the US could do is let 45 get away with his sedition and insurrection. He should be tried, and if found guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law. If his supporters rise up, crush them as the US would any terrorist threatening society.

 

If the US fails to pursue the charges and simply 'moves on', then the US sends two very bad signals:

 

1) Some people are above the law

 

2) The US is so weak it fears a bunch of bloated, obese, deluded, ignorant (or some combination of those) cosplay warriors.

 

South Korea had the courage to jail several of its former leaders. If they can do it, the US must do it.

[pedro01]

6 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

In my opinion, the worst thing the US could do is let 45 get away with his sedition and insurrection. He should be tried, and if found guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law. If his supporters rise up, crush them as the US would any terrorist threatening society.

 

If the US fails to pursue the charges and simply 'moves on', then the US sends two very bad signals:

 

1) Some people are above the law

 

2) The US is so weak it fears a bunch of bloated, obese, deluded, ignorant (or some combination of those) cosplay warriors.

 

South Korea had the courage to jail several of its former leaders. If they can do it, the US must do it.

 

It's too late to do anything about this set of riots.

 

By ignoring the riots from the left earlier in the year, a precedent was set. Do something against only 1 set of rioters, you embolden the victim narrative of the right.

 

As for insurrection - that's a misnomer. For a Coup D'état to take place, you need to take the reigns of power. That means taking control of the apparatus of government. There was no path to achieve that with this riot. It was simply an attack on a building. There was no path to gaining control of the military, the civil service, the police etc.  It was simply an attack on a prominent building. 

 

We had the same in April 2010 in Thailand. Protestors stormed parliament - but there was no way this could lead to control as the building itself isn't the government. 

 

The best thing that could happen in US right now would be a blanket pardon of protestors on the right and left (who were encouraged by Democrat and Republican politicians) and an agreement from the powers that be to not keep pushing the "lines that will not be crossed" each political cycle. It's getting very dangerous. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by pedro01

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another attempt at false equivalency...

 

This week was about an attempt to block the duly elected president of the United States from being able to take office, and instead illegally substitute the incumbent and clear loser of the election -- thru armed/mob force and the sacking of the Capitol and Congress. The attempt to subvert democracy failed, but that doesn't mean that wasn't their clear intent and purpose.

 

The Black Lives Matter protests were largely peaceful despite some violence and criminality that occurred. No leader of the Democratic Party supported or endorsed the criminality that did occur. And instead of attempting to illegally overthrow the U.S. government as with this past week, the BLM protesters were arguing for civil rights and fair treatment by police of members of their community.

 

As for the false notion that the BLM protest-related violence was somehow ignored, the facts tell a different story, with hundreds of people having been arrested and prosecuted, but not the kind of people Trump would have had the public believe were involved.

 

AP finds most arrested in protests aren’t leftist radicals

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump portrays the hundreds of people arrested nationwide in protests against racial injustice as violent urban left-wing radicals. But an Associated Press review of thousands of pages of court documents tells a different story.

 

Very few of those charged appear to be affiliated with highly organized extremist groups, and many are young suburban adults from the very neighborhoods Trump vows to protect from the violence in his reelection push to win support from the suburbs.

...

More than 40% of those facing federal charges are white. At least a third are Black, and about 6% Hispanic. More than two-thirds are under the age of 30 and most are men.

 

https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-suburbs-health-racial-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK