Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[sandyf]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:51 AM, stevenl said:

The situation has changed significantly. But I'm talking to a brick wall.

Quite so.

 

Voters across the UK believe Scotland is likely to become independent within the next decade – while more than half of those in Northern Ireland want a referendum on a united Ireland in the next five years, according to a series of polls.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-poll-northern-ireland-union-uk-b1791810.html

[IvorBiggun2]

13 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

He made a promise in 2013 to hold a referendum on EU membership IF the conservatives won the next election... In 2015.

He made that a promise if he won the election. He didn't and his promise was tossed into the waste bin.

[IvorBiggun2]

So if Scotland does win a second referendum how long must those that didn't vote leave wait before they can ask for a third referendum? Polls are up and down faster than a tarts knickers. One week is never the same as the next week.

[2530Ubon]

36 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

He made that a promise if he won the election. He didn't and his promise was tossed into the waste bin.

 

Wake up Ivor, why are you comenting on things you know nothing about (again)? David Cameron DID win in 2015. In fact, he won an outright majority. The liberal democrats were decimated. Clegg had 57 MPs in the commons prior to the election. He woke up the next day with 8 MPs.

 

David Cameron's promise is how we find ourselves arguing about Scottish independence & Brexit on an almost daily basis. He won the election in 2015 and held the referendumin 2017. No bins were involved in the making (and fulfilling) of this promise.

 

26 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

So if Scotland does win a second referendum how long must those that didn't vote leave wait before they can ask for a third referendum? Polls are up and down faster than a tarts knickers. One week is never the same as the next week.

 

I can answer this one for you.

 

The SNP asked for an initial vote, and received it in 2014.

 

2017, Brexit happened and the SNP want to hold a second vote - as a major change to the union has just taken place

 

There will be no need for a third vote - Scotland will go this time. In the unlikely event they stay, a third vote will be asked for the next time there is a major change to the union - particulary one that the Scots don't want (over 65% of Scots voted to remain in the EU).

Edited January 24, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[vogie]

35 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is all very simple, if the people of Scotland take the same view they will not vote for the SNP on May 6th.

Sadly it is not that simple, Scotland has become a one party state, it has no opposition at the moment. Not all Scots who vote SNP want to partition the UK. HTH

[Phulublub]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Sadly it is not that simple, Scotland has become a one party state, it has no opposition at the moment. Not all Scots who vote SNP want to partition the UK. HTH

Untrue.  The SNP has so many seats because so many Scots vote for them.  Thus it is fair to conclude that these voters are content with the SNP's flagship policy - independence - or they would vote for one of the other parties. 

 

Holyrood was set up to try and ensure that no party had an overwhelming majority.  That the SNP have one is testamount to their appeal, nothing else.

 

But once again, I ask, why do English people in England (or elsewhere in the World) care so much about this subject?  We are told time and again that Soctland is a drain on the UK, so England (and Wales and NI) would be better off if they left.  Why not let them if they so wish?

 

PH

Edited January 24, 2021 by Phulublub

[RuamRudy]

50 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

So if Scotland does win a second referendum how long must those that didn't vote leave wait before they can ask for a third referendum? Polls are up and down faster than a tarts knickers. One week is never the same as the next week.

 

You must know some very slow moving ladies of the night because it was a whole 21 polls ago since the union was in the lead.

 

But if you believe in democracy, then those dissatisfied with the result can start campaigning the moment the results are announced. That's how democracy works. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by RuamRudy

[2530Ubon]

11 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Untrue.  The SNP has so many seats because so many Scots vote for them.  Thus it is fair to conclude that these voters are content with the SNP's flagship policy - independence - or they would vote for one of the other parties. 

 

Holyrood was set up to try and ensure that no party had an overwhelming majority.  That the SNP have one is testamount to their appeal, nothing else.

I actually agree with him on that part. The only other parties to vote for are English parties - lib/lab/con. If I was eligible to vote in Scotland, I'd probably vote for a party from my own country than an English one. Purely because the one from my country would probably have the best interests of that country, and not be 'beholden' to the mother party in England.

[transam]

15 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Untrue.  The SNP has so many seats because so many Scots vote for them.  Thus it is fair to conclude that these voters are content with the SNP's flagship policy - independence - or they would vote for one of the other parties. 

 

Holyrood was set up to try and ensure that no party had an overwhelming majority.  That the SNP have one is testamount to their appeal, nothing else.

 

But once again, I ask, why do English people in England (or elsewhere in the World) care so much about this subject?  We are told time and again that Soctland is a drain on the UK, so England (and Wales and NI) would be better off if they left.  Why not let them if they so wish?

 

PH

Your last para, I think you have been listening to too much bar stool assumption gossip.... ????

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

Sadly it is not that simple, Scotland has become a one party state, it has no opposition at the moment. Not all Scots who vote SNP want to partition the UK. HTH

 

What compete and utter nonsense you have written there. Scotland has as wide a panoply of parties as England or Wales. That one party is more popular is because they provide voters with the options they find most appealing. I am sorry if that puts your favoured Nasty Party in the shade, but we simply don't like their greed, arrogance or corruption. 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

I actually agree with him on that part. The only other parties to vote for are English parties - lib/lab/con. If I was eligible to vote in Scotland, I'd probably vote for a party from my own country than an English one. Purely because the one from my country would probably have the best interests of that country, and not be 'beholden' to the mother party in England.

It seems Sturgeon has been making a complete cock-up of governing, so to me it looks like she hasn't had the best interests of her country. It probably boils down to her total wasting of time on the SNP's shield bashing independence..????

[transam]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

What compete and utter nonsense you have written there. Scotland has as wide a panoply of parties as England or Wales. That one party is more popular is because they provide voters with the options they find most appealing. I am sorry if that puts your favoured Nasty Party in the shade, but we simply don't like their greed, arrogance or corruption. 

"Corruption", that's rich, isn't Sturgeon facing similar stuff..........

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, transam said:

"Corruption", that's rich, isn't Sturgeon facing similar stuff..........

 

Similar? Has she failed in the most tragic of manners in an international crisis, then used that crisis to funnel billions of pounds of taxpayers' money into the pockets of closer friends and donors? Get back to me when she has. 

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, transam said:

It seems Sturgeon has been making a complete cock-up of governing, so to me it looks like she hasn't had the best interests of her country. It probably boils down to her total wasting of time on the SNP's shield bashing independence..????

And yet they are going to wipe the floor with the opposition? How does that happen then? 

[RuamRudy]

Union in crisis as polls reveal voters want referendum on Scottish independence and united Ireland

Saturday January 23 2021, 6.00pm GMT, The Sunday Times

The UK is facing a constitutional crisis that will strain the Union as new polls reveal a majority of voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland want referendums on the break-up of Britain.

 

A four-country survey we commissioned, based on separate polls in Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales, also found that the sense of British identity that once bound the country together is disintegrating.

[vogie]

45 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

What compete and utter nonsense you have written there. Scotland has as wide a panoply of parties as England or Wales. That one party is more popular is because they provide voters with the options they find most appealing. I am sorry if that puts your favoured Nasty Party in the shade, but we simply don't like their greed, arrogance or corruption. 

Well there you have it in a nutshell, anyone who dares to criticise or even say anything negative about the SNP and her that must be obeyed at all times gets shot down in flames by the loyal Scottish Nationalists. 

Muriel Gray the Scottish author and a really good egg has said, "Politics now is like a religion in Scotland. Used to be debatable and enthralling. Now? Tribal. Identity politics. For us or against us. Tragic" 

She also stated that and I paraphrase, "That anyone who is brave enough to criticise the SNP not only deserves a medal, but also a safe house" 

I think those wise will come back to haunt many Scottish Nationalists. 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well there you have it in a nutshell, anyone who dares to criticise or even say anything negative about the SNP and her that must be obeyed at all times gets shot down in flames by the loyal Scottish Nationalists. 

Muriel Gray the Scottish author and a really good egg has said, "Politics now is like a religion in Scotland. Used to be debatable and enthralling. Now? Tribal. Identity politics. For us or against us. Tragic" 

She also stated that and I paraphrase, "That anyone who is brave enough to criticise the SNP not only deserves a medal, but also a safe house" 

I think those wise will come back to haunt many Scottish Nationalists. 

You didn't criticise it - you, once again, made an incorrect statement which I, once again, corrected. 

Then again, as you show so frequently on these boards, your confidence in your own understanding of Scotland and Scottish politics is massively overblown, so it is of no great surprise that you regurgitate Daily Express style nonsense so frequently. 

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Your last para, I think you have been listening to too much bar stool assumption gossip.... ????

Are you English?  If yes, please try and answer the question.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Well there you have it in a nutshell, anyone who dares to criticise or even say anything negative about the SNP and her that must be obeyed at all times gets shot down in flames by the loyal Scottish Nationalists. 

Muriel Gray the Scottish author and a really good egg has said, "Politics now is like a religion in Scotland. Used to be debatable and enthralling. Now? Tribal. Identity politics. For us or against us. Tragic" 

She also stated that and I paraphrase, "That anyone who is brave enough to criticise the SNP not only deserves a medal, but also a safe house" 

I think those wise will come back to haunt many Scottish Nationalists. 

Whereas the Brexit debate was seemly and full of reasoned argument.  No tribal baying there at all.  Oh no.

 

But I ask yet again, why do you care so much?  Let the Scots leave if they wish then you won't have to worry about them.

 

PH

[katatonic]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You must know some very slow moving ladies of the night because it was a whole 21 polls ago since the union was in the lead.

 

But if you believe in democracy, then those dissatisfied with the result can start campaigning the moment the results are announced. That's how democracy works. 

How democratic will it be it they win and leave the Union: when do you think they'll have another referendum after then? A lot of people will want one when they get their tax bill, if they haven't bought a house over the border first, like a lot of people I know have, just in case.
 

[katatonic]

50 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Whereas the Brexit debate was seemly and full of reasoned argument.  No tribal baying there at all.  Oh no.

 

But I ask yet again, why do you care so much?  Let the Scots leave if they wish then you won't have to worry about them.

 

PH

As with Brexit, no-one seems to have considered the ramifications for all the Scots and English living on the 'wrong' side of the border that will, in the event of a split, need visas and probable restrictions in length of their annual visits, to their homes. Not to mention work permits.

Edited January 24, 2021 by katatonic
correction

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, katatonic said:

How democratic will it be it they win and leave the Union: when do you think they'll have another referendum after then? A lot of people will want one when they get their tax bill, if they haven't bought a house over the border first, like a lot of people I know have, just in case.
 

 

I am not sure I follow. Regardless of your political perspective, you have the democratic right to campaign in favour of achieving your goals. That is a right that all enjoy and must never be compromised. 

 

You know a lot of people who have purchased second homes in another country in case the political landscape changes in the one in which they are resident? You must know a lot of rich people then. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, katatonic said:

As with Brexit, no-one seems to have considered the ramifications for all the Scots and English living on the 'wrong' side of the border that will, in the event of a split, need visas and probable restrictions in length of their annual visits, to their homes. Not to mention work permits.

 

I believe it has been thought about, at least from the Scottish perspective.

 

If you were born in Scotland you will qualify for a Scottish passport. If you have Scottish heritage and wish to apply for a Scottish passport, again, that is open to you. 

 

If you were born elsewhere but are resident in Scotland at the time of independence, you can apply for residency. There will be no purge; all who wish to contribute to the creation of a better future will be welcome regardless of from where they hail. 

[katatonic]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I am not sure I follow. Regardless of your political perspective, you have the democratic right to campaign in favour of achieving your goals. That is a right that all enjoy and must never be compromised. 

 

You know a lot of people who have purchased second homes in another country in case the political landscape changes in the one in which they are resident? You must know a lot of rich people then. 

So I know some people who can afford second home cottages? That doesn't exactly make them rich! I guess you don't like people with significant disposable income then?

[RuamRudy]

Today's ST front page looks glorious. 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, katatonic said:

So I know some people who can afford second home cottages? That doesn't exactly make them rich! I guess you don't like people with significant disposable income then?

 

How do you deduce that? It's a bit of a leap, and entirely off topic. 

[katatonic]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I believe it has been thought about, at least from the Scottish perspective.

 

If you were born in Scotland you will qualify for a Scottish passport. If you have Scottish heritage and wish to apply for a Scottish passport, again, that is open to you. 

 

If you were born elsewhere but are resident in Scotland at the time of independence, you can apply for residency. There will be no purge; all who wish to contribute to the creation of a better future will be welcome regardless of from where they hail. 

How much of a better future do you really think they'll all have once the nationalistic fervour has been exercised? 

[katatonic]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

How do you deduce that? It's a bit of a leap, and entirely off topic. 

It was a direct response to your question.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, katatonic said:

How much of a better future do you really think they'll all have once the nationalistic fervour has been exercised? 

 

I am unsure who you mean by 'they'. Do you mean we Scots? I believe that we will continue to face challenges, opportunities, problems and upsets like every other country in the world. 

 

But we will be making the decisions for ourselves, choosing our own future and implementing policies that have the best interests of Scotland at the very heart of decision making. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, katatonic said:

It was a direct response to your question.

I appreciate that, but I am questioning your logic. I fail to see the leap you took.