Sin sod query

[PGSan]

3 hours ago, Andycoops said:

I won't be selling my daughter to anyone.

At least not to ‘just anyone’!!  

[Stevemercer]

For the average educated Thai daughter in Isan (up to 30, never married, university educated, a bit of English and professional job with the government) expect to pay about 500,000 Baht, plus 2 baht of gold for the bride, and about 75,000 Baht for the wedding.

 

For a mature lady (30 - 50, previously married, children, decent job, car and reasonable prospects) you might give some money to the parents (50,000 Baht) and pay for the wedding (75,000 Baht) and a 2 baht gold wedding gift for your spouse (50,000 Baht).

 

You can save some costs, and the lady can save face, by going through an engagement ceremony, if you can't afford to marry just now. This would be about half the cost. As far as the parents, friends and relatives are concerned, it is similar to being married and you can stay together etc.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

35 minutes ago, PGSan said:

Well then, you need to think again!   As This is not the motivation of the majority of us here.

Why leave then? Humans throughout history have migrated in search of better opportunities. All the foreigners I’ve ever talked to here have told me of one thing or another that promoted them to look elsewhere. Job opportunities, cost of living, romantic partners, a change of scenery, in a new culture, with new things to see or do. It’s certainly arguable whether or not these things are better than in any other country, but it is certain that Thailand offers these things in abundance, and they are great options to consider. If they weren’t, we wouldn’t be staying.

[recom273]

On 2/15/2021 at 10:36 AM, 473geo said:

So no sinsod guys? Who paid for the wedding, or who do you expect to pay for wedding? Just wondering how low you are prepared to go ????

I’m not cheap! I paid for the wedding of course! All that running about to CW / MFA / British Embassy - the taxis - hotel in BKK - then there was the paperwork at Bang Rak - we got out of there at lunch time - straight out for duck noodles over the road. I offered to buy one of those velour folders for the certificate but she said no. 

[MadMuhammad]

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Amusing as always, people boasting about giving her family nothing, after most have spent a small fortune over the years on payments for sex to bar girls.

just the antithesis of exactly what they do when their daughters snag the big whale ???? 

[salsajapan]

only pay if you are an old and ugly men as most foreigner that I see with younger women.

do not pay for dowry but pay to help the girl accept to see your ugly face and person everyday.

 

[Darksidedude]

had a mate who the daughters father gave him a list of things to buy for the house TV etc, he gave them nothing 

[LukKrueng]

On 2/14/2021 at 6:58 PM, Clive said:

Good afternoon.

Can you please offer some help. 

I'm going to be taking an early retirement and moving to Thailand later this year/ early next year (assuming coronavirus is behind us) and was wondering if sin sod is still widely practised and if so what price roughly would it be for a normal Thai girl

Having lived in Thailand about 15 years ago and had a horrible toxic relationship (not a bar girl) I would be very cautious about paying what I consider an outdated practice should I meet someone in the future. 

Thank you

Short answer - yes, it is a Thai tradition, part of the culture, and still being practiced. It is not something invented to extort money from foreigners. 

But as you're not in Thailand yet, and not in any relationship with a Thai woman - why are you even thinking about it? 

On 2/14/2021 at 9:14 PM, ThailandRyan said:

The shortest answer one can give you is this "No".  Sinsod is outdated and is not part of your culture.  As an American Father my responsibility is to pay for my Daughters wedding when the time comes, and the young man is only responsible for taking care of my daughter and nothing more.  Completely backwards here.  If you buy vehicles buy them in your name, and for gods sake do not build a house near the family either.  Make sure you have a Plan B and a Plan C and never spend more than you can afford to walk away from.  Always have a fall back plan, and money for that unforeseen rainy day.

The answer to you is: yes. It is still practiced and as a cultural thing it is not outdated. You still celebrate thanks giving, no? As if your forefathers really asked the Indians for their lands nicely....

[RichardColeman]

I was 51 when I married my wife 37 - no sinsod.

 

If she's got kids or married before - nothing, it's a scam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spidermike007]

The entire practice of sin sod has become somewhat twisted, and completely blown out of proportion, due to some weak man who have paid silly amount of money over the years. The word gets around quickly, and pretty soon you have very average women, with kids, thinking their "market value" is in the stratosphere. Not so, at all. The reality is, it has to do with so many factors. 

 

Here is something from a law firm, which I think it pretty sound advice. Also, some other sound recommendations on the amount. It is very much about class, station in life, education, kids, age, beauty, and formerly married, or not. 

 

The price of the sin sod depends on a variety of factors. A bride's education and social standing increase the expected price. If your fiance is a high earner or a beauty queen this will also increase the price. Rural families often expect less of a sin sod than city dwellers. Other factors will decrease the amount expected. If your Thai bride-to-be has been previously married, or already has children, her family may ask for a much smaller sin sod. In many of these cases no sin sod may be expected at all. Sin sod amounts vary widely. If your fiance is a middle class university graduate, expect to pay 100,000 - 300,000 Baht. On the upper end, you may have to pay millions of Baht if your fiance is a successful businesswoman, famous performer, or rich socialite.

 

http://usa.siam-legal.com/family-law/thai-dowry.php

 

 

The amount of dowry paid usually depends on the social status of the family and/or the level of education of the bride or her income alternatively both. A dowry of a million baht for an uneducated woman is unheard of. A Dowry for an average middle class educated Thai would normally be in the region of 100,000 Baht. This varies as an example, should the bride be a divorcee or a “Mia Maiy” – (a spoiled/ruined wife), normally no dowry is paid. If she has a child or children from a former marriage or relationship no dowry is paid either.

 

https://marrythailand.com/thailand-dowry.php

 

Then, there is the personal element. For me, a women who is divorced, is no big deal at all. But a woman who has kids from a previous marriage would be a very big deal. It is entirely subjective, but some caution should be employed, as this entire sin sod thing has been blown completely out of proportion to reality, by a few guys who grossly overpaid, over the years.

 

I think it would be safe to say the proper amount to be paid is a fraction of what the family has in mind, most of the time. 

[MarcIssan]

So 15 years ago I paid a sin sod so maybe it was different then.  I paid what I could afford and am still happily married.  The MIL sponsored about 15 kids at the local school for a year or more so at least some of the money went to 'help those less fortunate'.  The sin sod served many purposes.  It showed my bride-to-be that I was not a cheap Charlie and that she could look forward to a decent life.  It gave her and her family certain bragging rights in the village and it eased their life while the money lasted.  And since she was 'the one' for me, I didn't want a few thousand dollars to interfere with our future.  The impression I got was that the 'value' the family placed on their daughter was the sin sod they requested.

 

But, on the down side, I think it also set the stage with the family that I was the newest ATM in the village too.  I got hit with many loan requests following our wedding and I agreed to some but not all.  It was hard for my wife to tell her family NO so we agreed she would say "It's not my money...it's my husband's money so it is up to him".  Then I would say NO and she passed my decision on.

 

Eventually we moved to Udon and at first the loan request lines were long and steady out the door of my rental home.  The day of reckoning came and I held a family meeting where all the smiles quickly turned to frowns.  You see I pointed to each and every one of them and said they had bad credit with me for not paying the last loan and than any further loans would depend upon my first receiving full payment of the prior loan(s).  Two loans were paid, one was not but I sold a plot of land I got in the settlement of debt and the proceeds paid all the loans in full plus some.  One family member's loan is still outstanding now 9 years later.  I'll never see his money for sure!

 

Now everyone knows not to ask for money....ever!  My wife finally realized that given the chance, family would take everything leaving us with zero for the future so she in turn is as tight with money as I am.

 

So for me, I found a balance.  I offered what I could afford for the sin sod, future loans (gifts), and educational assistance for the kids but now a penny more.  I set a limit and cut off the flow once that limit was hit.  My wife has the satisfaction that we helped each one of the family members but I refuse to make further loans because 'family forgets to pay'!

 

I explained that when I married my wife I promised to take care of her and that our savings and investments are for that purpose.  I did NOT agree to take care of them and if I continued to give money and make loans that don't get repaid, there will be no money for our future when we need it.  I found that if I controlled my money I also controlled my wife and her family. It took about 6 months for them to GET IT and now we live among the family in our own house on our own plots and are never bothered with support requests.  Life is good, my wife is happy, and I manage all financial issues.  My wife has access to only her account and the money I put in there.

 

So one size does not fit all.  It is a matter of what you can afford, what if anything are you willing to do, and how you plan to handle 'support' issues in the future.

[khunPer]

On 2/14/2021 at 12:58 PM, Clive said:

I'm going to be taking an early retirement and moving to Thailand later this year/ early next year (assuming coronavirus is behind us) and was wondering if sin sod is still widely practised and if so what price roughly would it be for a normal Thai girl

Firstly, what is a "normal Thai girl"?

 

If you think of a more traditional Thai family, then sin sod seems to be widely practiced – if not for anything else, then for show at the party, so the families can make face – first marriage and no children, from a family in a social level somewhere at the edge of where the middle class could begin, might be negotiated to around a million baht, plus some bahts gold, and eventually a diamond ring.

 

Photo of showing sin sod, from a Thai-Thai around "middle class" wedding party I was invited to...

 

However it's an extremely relative question, just like what a "normal Thai girl" is, it's up to a negotiation between families (parties).

 

Without generalizing, most of us retired foreigners will probably meet, and mingle with, the lower end of the social levels; i.e. anything from village girls/ladies to persons with a shorter education. You probably need to be working in the right circles to mingle with higher social levels, or be of some financial status, or just "someone important"; but of course there are exceptions.

 

A Thai-Thai farmer-family village marriage's sin sod for a "normal Thai girl" – i.e. young girl, and no (well known) previous relationships – could be in the level around 100,000 baht to 200,000 baht, plus gold. I would presume the going price would be higher for a "rich" foreigner...????

 

Counting sin sod, 120,000 baht, at a farmer village wedding...

 

If the "normal Thai lady" has been married before – unregistered village marriage counts here – and if there are offspring(s) following as "dowry", the level of sin sod should be expected to be lower or zip; but of course the family's social level, and the grooms financial status, reflects the amount.

 

I've been told that sin sod is supposed to show, that a future husband is financially able to take care of a family, as well as sin sod is "milk money", a compensation to the bride's family; i.e. the higher the social level of the bride's family is, the higher "milk"-costs need to be compensated.

 

My Thai girlfriend use to say that she wants 5 million bath in sin sod for our daughter, to compensate for our expenses and school money; mentioned to show Thai-way-of-thinking, whilst I with farang-way-of-thinking don't even think about sin sod, I only think about a happy daughter and a good future for her...

 

It's a subjective negotiation, where often a "normal Thai girl" would wish to show her family's face with a sin sod – which might be for show only, and will be returned after the party; or half of it is returned – whilst others don't care about sin sod, or accept the Western-style wedding ceremony. I've been invited to both style of wedding ceremonies with both relative "normal Thai girls" – and one that might not be so "normal"...???? – i.e. both with and without sin sod.

 

Even you might not pay sin sod, you might still be expected to pay for a party, sometimes a huge party; the groom' and his family also makes face that way, especially when hundred or more guests are invited (photo from same party as above sin sod image)...

 

–or is this Thai-Thai wedding-party with probably around a thousand guests held for a "normal Thai girl" of the middle class, I had to use three photos and merge them, as my pocket-camera did not have a wide-angle lens...

 

Some of us don't pay sin sod, or at least don't pay directly, as we might compensate in other ways; even if the relationship is unregistered, and being boyfriend-girlfriend only. In "Thai-way-of-thinking" you are considered "married" when you sleep together.

 

By the way, we had, and might still have, "same-same but different" tradition in the West, where the brides family pays dowry to a groom to get rid of their daughter(s), they even pay for a big party to celebrate that they finally got rid of that girl...????

[khunPer]

13 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

On the upper end, you may have to pay millions of Baht if your fiance is a successful businesswoman, famous performer, or rich socialite.

100 million baht...

[473geo]

If you guys can't even afford a small token gesture, and provide an in your face 'no way' response, you place enormous pressure on your future wife, and rather obviously come across as a little short of the perfect catch. Is there any wonder some relationships never really get off the ground?

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, Andycoops said:

I won't be selling my daughter to anyone.

Mine is available for 5Mbht.

Age 22, finishes university next month, never been on a date. 

[tingtongfarang]

4 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Find a Gal who's family are dead, worked for me, getting married at the local amphor was free. 

Mine lost her parents at 12 years old, neither of us see any reason to get married anyway

[Bob12345]

39 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Mine is available for 5Mbht.

Age 22, finishes university next month, never been on a date. 

The apple never falls far from the tree, so I wouldn't bite even if you gave 5Mbht ????

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, Stevemercer said:

For the average educated Thai daughter in Isan (up to 30, never married, university educated, a bit of English and professional job with the government) expect to pay about 500,000 Baht, plus 2 baht of gold for the bride, and about 75,000 Baht for the wedding.

 

For a mature lady (30 - 50, previously married, children, decent job, car and reasonable prospects) you might give some money to the parents (50,000 Baht) and pay for the wedding (75,000 Baht) and a 2 baht gold wedding gift for your spouse (50,000 Baht).

 

You can save some costs, and the lady can save face, by going through an engagement ceremony, if you can't afford to marry just now. This would be about half the cost. As far as the parents, friends and relatives are concerned, it is similar to being married and you can stay together etc.

 

That is a very good summary.  Getting away with zero may not be a realistic objective, if you wish to have good relations with the family in future. You can also do the engagement and marriage ceremonies at the same time which many Thais do these days.

[MadMuhammad]

1 hour ago, 473geo said:

If you guys can't even afford a small token gesture, and provide an in your face 'no way' response, you place enormous pressure on your future wife, and rather obviously come across as a little short of the perfect catch. Is there any wonder some relationships never really get off the ground?

I just got real lucky. My wife insisted it wasn’t necessary and even then that was only after I enquires about it. 
The only money that has been given to her parents were two loans amounting to 30000 baht for their business, both of which were paid back within a month or so. Surely they’re all up to something ???? lol

[Bob12345]

I remember I paid 999,999 baht as sinsot, it was a lucky number they told me... It was also returned the very same day, after all the pictures were taken during the morning ceremony and the mother-in-law pretended to sneak out with the sinsot at great laughter of all the guests. The wedding "upcountry" was very cheap: we did it at her grandfather's house and the whole family helped out with putting on the stage and the decorations. In the end the total costs were about zero as the envelopes with money covered the costs. The wedding in BKK was more expensive, as everything wedding-related is overprized and most of her friends were at the start of their career limiting the cash gifts. 

[MarleyMarl]

I told my fiancée if she wanted sin sod she should marry a Thai man... so no sin sod. I don't push my culture/customs on her, and the custom of sin sod has nothing to do with me or my culture. I guess it helps that she is the one who eagerly wants to get married, as most woman do.

 

I can see the point of wanting to respect the culture/parents, so if you are in love with Thai culture, the family is going to pay for the wedding / return most of the money, I don't necessarily think it's bad thing to do, as long as it is all above board. 

 

I also think for a young couple starting out in married life, starting a family, money should be kept not spent. Then again if you're an older gentleman with a younger woman/hooker then you don't have much choice. 

[The Fat Controller]

I only put 4.6 million on the table and the M-I-L ceremonially ran off with it !

However, it was all returned the same day and has since been invested in our business.

In the 6 subsequent years, she has transferred two pieces of property to my wife, built and paid for her own retirement home and never asked for a single Baht.

Her brother, my wife's Uncle has always been around to help us out, he is much better with DIY than me.

We also lent him and his wife some money to finish their new build and that was paid back as agreed on them receiving their retirement lump sums, plus a small amount of interest.

We only took half the interest offered, we told them we appreciate their great hospitality and frequent help with our business.

Whilst there is no compulsion to pay Sin Sod, being able to put something on the table at a traditional Thai wedding can really help cement a good relationship with your new family.

Just make sure you agree with how it will be handled, there are horror stories too but I have been very lucky.

As they say "Up to you"

 

[rickudon]

A lot depends on the family and their social position. My F-i-L was the ex Pooyaibaan (retired), M-I-L's grandfather founded the village..... No sin-sot, loss of face. Wife was in her 30's, virgin. I paid for the wedding and 300,000 baht sinsot. Thai sister-in-law loaned the gold.  didn't get any of the money back, but my wife got the old family home (largest in village) so maybe it was a good deal ..... until the repair bill came round!

[natway09]

Cross the brigge when & if you come to it.

Far too many variables to make any hard & fast rules.

It is steeped in tradition & is not of necessity saying (as the US gung Ho  poster on here )that

they are "backward".

It is their daughter & they may believe that the giving of assures a Happy Couple (even if all given back after.

Keep an open mind

 

[Airalee]

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned that there are businesses that rent the sinsod (cash, gold, car) for about 5% of the amount loaned for display.

 

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/thai-company-rents-dowry-poor-couples-want-display-stacks-cash-wedding/

 

This is how some of middle class that people are referring to come up with the ฿500,000 to ฿1,000,000 to show.  

 

Considering most university graduates are on salaries of about ฿20,000 per month, it would take forever to save up a million baht considering that they have ongoing expenses that come from that salary (rent/food/transportation).  The parents of the groom probably aren’t making much more than that unless they are a doctor or wealthy businessman of sorts.  The per capita GDP of Thailand (as of 2017) is ฿228,000 per year.  Get out of the high paying provinces and that number falls fast.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thai_provinces_by_GPP

 

Two university graduates I know that I have directly and honestly discussed the topic of sinsod with (one is a teacher making ฿16,000/month and the other one a physical therapist at a hospital making about ฿25,000 per month...and both in their late 20s) said that ฿200,000 would be the maximum that someone of their stature could expect to command.  A massage girl I know (also with a university degree) got ฿30,000 and 2 baht of gold.  
 

The ones getting a million and up are in the top 1%.

[MarleyMarl]

1 hour ago, The Fat Controller said:

I only put 4.6 million on the table and the M-I-L ceremonially ran off with it !

However, it was all returned the same day and has since been invested in our business.

In the 6 subsequent years, she has transferred two pieces of property to my wife, built and paid for her own retirement home and never asked for a single Baht.

Her brother, my wife's Uncle has always been around to help us out, he is much better with DIY than me.

We also lent him and his wife some money to finish their new build and that was paid back as agreed on them receiving their retirement lump sums, plus a small amount of interest.

We only took half the interest offered, we told them we appreciate their great hospitality and frequent help with our business.

Whilst there is no compulsion to pay Sin Sod, being able to put something on the table at a traditional Thai wedding can really help cement a good relationship with your new family.

Just make sure you agree with how it will be handled, there are horror stories too but I have been very lucky.

As they say "Up to you"

 

Congrats, I'm glad that it worked out for you. I don't think I'd be comfortable with carrying around 4mb of cash in Thailand lol.

[fordguy61mi]

My wife had no kids and had never been married but she was 36 which is a little old for first time marriage. We also got married in the U.S., not a traditional ceremony, so I paid no sin sod. But you must also remember that the adult children there support elderly parents in retirement, and your wife may expect you as a couple to send money monthly to the family. Negotiate and work out the amount before getting married. It doesn’t have to be much, what would be a car payment to you might be a months salary for a Thai. I think sin sod is becoming a thing of the past as western culture continues to influence Thailand. Whatever the case for you, good luck.

[DaLa]

1 hour ago, MarleyMarl said:

 

Congrats, I'm glad that it worked out for you. I don't think I'd be comfortable with carrying around 4mb of cash in Thailand lol.

This is one of his wedding photos.....

[salsajapan]

10 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Mine is available for 5Mbht.

Age 22, finishes university next month, never been on a date. 

 

yes I know that she didn't tell you, but I got her for free ????

 

 

[salsajapan]

8 hours ago, The Fat Controller said:

I only put 4.6 million on the table and the M-I-L ceremonially ran off with it !

However, it was all returned the same day and has since been invested in our business.

In the 6 subsequent years, she has transferred two pieces of property to my wife, built and paid for her own retirement home and never asked for a single Baht.

Her brother, my wife's Uncle has always been around to help us out, he is much better with DIY than me.

We also lent him and his wife some money to finish their new build and that was paid back as agreed on them receiving their retirement lump sums, plus a small amount of interest.

We only took half the interest offered, we told them we appreciate their great hospitality and frequent help with our business.

Whilst there is no compulsion to pay Sin Sod, being able to put something on the table at a traditional Thai wedding can really help cement a good relationship with your new family.

Just make sure you agree with how it will be handled, there are horror stories too but I have been very lucky.

As they say "Up to you"

 

 

I still wonder how can people accept to wear those chit costumes ?

I would even prefer to have a clown one, at least it looks funny !