Face

[FalangJaiDee]

Does anyone have any really esoteric situations where face was lost/saved with a Thai. 
 

for example, in a book called “bangkok 8,” instead of a taxi driver admitting he didn’t want to drive through BKK sukhumvit gridlock, he said his taxi wasnt working anymore (they stopped somewhere). The patron got in the drivers seat and drove the car 10 feet and then told him it worked. The taxi driver then had to drive him to avoid losing face via having to admit to his lie. 

 

so what I’m saying is, do any of you have an example or experience where you used face in such a way as to control the outcome of a situation skillfully by indirectly maneuvering around it?

 

I get the surface level concept but the way it appears to apply in thai social life can be very nuanced and engimatic.

[trivo]

Read a good book explaning Face "The Way Thais Lead" by Larry S. Persons .Got it on Kindle very helpful for a happy life in Thailand

[OneMoreFarang]

On 5/15/2021 at 11:06 AM, Kanada said:

I think if you don’t live with a Thai person you may not entirely understand the issue of Face and particularly Thai Face which is taken a little further than some Asian countries!

I live and work here since over 20 years. I have an idea what "face" is about. But do I really understand it? No. And do I think that I have to behave to make sure nobody is losing face? No. I try to be polite and if there is a nice way to tell people something I will try it that way. But sometimes some things have to be said... 

[Kanada]

1 hour ago, Thingamabob said:

Amazing.

Just think this guy is out there walking around everyday and wondering why no one likes him.

Feel sorry for the rest of us

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, RobMuir said:

The topic is losing face.

 

Often happens when people just can't face up to the reality of a situation, or someone else points out the reality which then causes loss of face.

 

Something that not only affects Thais it seems.

 

 

 

So what does that have to with you wanting to know where I met my wife ?

 

Are you trying to insinuate something ?

[Saltire]

I have a neighbour from Myanmar. He rarely drinks alcohol but recently, due to his family being caught up in the military killings in his home area, he hit the bottle a few nights in a row through stress.

 

Several months ago he helped me when i had a bad fall and cracked my skull open. I repaid this with a large bag of rice (he  has a big household) and he was very grateful. He had gained face, and so did I with the rice gift.

 

However a week or so later he was still getting drunk at nights. His family sit outside most nights as do the wife and I. One night he started shouting that if the farang fell again, he would need to find someone else to help, as he wouldn't (i've cleaned that up a bit!). Now we all say and do things under the influence we regret, but the next morning after a few guilty pangs, we get over it

 

He however took his behaviour to me as a huge loss of face, and for over a week avoided coming out of his house as he did not want me to see him. The wife talked to his wife and said to forget it, for me it was no big deal, but it took him a long time to get over it.

 

Face is serious for some.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Saltire

[Kanada]

2 minutes ago, Saltire said:

I have a neighbour from Myanmar. He rarely drinks alcohol but recently, due to his family being caught up in the military killings in his home area, he hit the bottle a few nights in a row through stress.

 

Several months ago he helped me when i had a bad fall and cracked my skull open. I repaid this with a large bag of rice (he  has a big household) and he was very grateful. He had gained face, and so did I with the rice gift.

 

However a week or so later he was still getting drunk at nights. His family sit outside most nights as do the wife and I. One night he started shouting that if the farang fell again, he would need to find someone else to help, as he wouldn't (i've cleaned that up a bit!). Now we all say and do things under the influence but the next morning after a few guilty pangs, we get over it

 

He however took his behaviour to me as a huge loss of face, and for over a week avoided coming out of his house as he did not want ne to see him. THe wife talked to his wife and said to forget it, for me it ws no big deal, but it took him a long time to get over it.

 

Face is serious for some.

Perfect example of “face” and winning or losing it! It’s a very serious thing in Asia 

I see by the posts many just do not understand it at all!

[Kanada]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:14 PM, ThailandRyan said:

What you describe is more than FACE, you have described Thainess.  I would ask questions of my now Thai Ex-Wife when we were married, she would look at me and say "You have eyes, you can see, why ask the question"  The same as when we would be driving and I would ask her something while I was looking down the road and driving the vehicle, sometimes I never heard a word, and if I happened to fail to turn my head and miss the blinking of her eyes, her way of answering, and when I asked her the same question again she would sternly make the same statement again "You have eyes you can see".  Never learned.  It would cause me great consternation sometimes when she would not talk for many days.....lol

Just so you know I experienced some of the same things....her answers would be short and curt and it would take some time to get an answer sometimes!

We finally talked and what it seems is:

in general I need to talk about something more than she does but the big one that really explained a lot was....when you ask me a question I have to hear it in English....turn it into Thai to process it and formulate an answer...then turn that into English (and it doesn’t always translate well) and try to answer you!!

it takes time and after awhile it wears me out!! 
Also I know my wife is a quit person and also likes to think before she answers a question so what was a simple thing for me wasn’t so simple for her????

We have a time when we discuss these problems and the more we do it the more we u sweat and each other!

[aboctok]

On 5/16/2021 at 7:35 AM, BritManToo said:

Disagree ......... it's false pride.

Primitive and generally uneducated people who usually refuse to learn or accept guidance from their betters.

It's always eye-roll worthy when the apologists elevate these primitive, self-indulgent memes to the level of breathtaking wisdom. What garbage, lol.

[RobMuir]

22 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

So what does that have to with you wanting to know where I met my wife ?

 

Are you trying to insinuate something ?

Nah mate. Just asking. You brought up how you met her 15 years ago.

 

I will add though that your take on the barfine system is completely wrong. You believed what they wanted you to believe.

 

They pedal the story that " it is for the girls time and goes to the bar because she is not there getting lady drinks" blah, blah , blah that you posted.

 

But the little secret the mugs don't realise is the girl always gets a cut from it if not all of it. So it is really just another 500 baht scam.

 

It is a lie too many newbies fall for. If you call them out on it it does cause them to lose face.

 

I know you are careful with your money and don't back down even if it is only as little as 100baht so I thought I had better let you know.

 

Cheers

[ChrisKC]

Charlie H mentioned embarrassment - that is what it is. It is the same worldwide; nobody likes to be embarrassed.

 

I would add, that loss of face would be easier if there was a little more humility. But Thais are not much for being genuinely humble!

 

Explain to me why a discovered lie appears not to show loss of face...because it is "selective"?

[4MyEgo]

21 minutes ago, RobMuir said:

Nah mate. Just asking. You brought up how you met her 15 years ago.

 

I will add though that your take on the barfine system is completely wrong. You believed what they wanted you to believe.

 

They pedal the story that " it is for the girls time and goes to the bar because she is not there getting lady drinks" blah, blah , blah that you posted.

 

But the little secret the mugs don't realise is the girl always gets a cut from it if not all of it. So it is really just another 500 baht scam.

 

It is a lie too many newbies fall for. If you call them out on it it does cause them to lose face.

 

I know you are careful with your money and don't back down even if it is only as little as 100baht so I thought I had better let you know.

 

Cheers

 

I don't know how long you have been in Phuket, but I first went to Phuket in 2006 and met a few bar owners from my home country and some Thai's, I learned pretty much straight away how the system worked.

 

The above said, not going to argue as we all see and hear things differently, but I have an ex bar owner up this way who also had a bar in Phuket and I asked him one day, what was the deal on bar fines with the girls and he confirmed what I already knew, i.e. he would pay the girls 100 baht a day to show up, if they didn't he would doc them the 100 baht, they would make 50% on the lady bar drinks and the bar fine was set (his) was 500 baht, half for the girl and half for the bar, if the girl wanted to waive the bar fine or her half and go with the customer that was up to her, but he (the bar owner) was there to do business, i.e. sell drinks to make money and if the girls wanted to go with his customers, then they had to adhere to his rules, as above, and he said he never, except for one time, had a bar girl not charge his customer a bar fine, and that girl paid half of the 500 baht to the owner, with him saying to her, you shouldn't waive the bar fine for the customer, it's bad business, she said don't worry, he didn't want to pay the bar fine, so I just told him ok, no bar fine, so she added 500 baht to her normal fee, e.g. 2,000 baht became 2,500 baht and the customer knew nothing, now that is a smart girl to me, i.e. rather than lose the customer over the bar fine, just add it to her fee.

 

Bar fines are a scam, but it is the way things work, I have always paid bar fines, but not before asking the girl how much for her services, the bar fine and how many drinks I wanted to buy her, then I would negotiate with her on her fee, i.e. I would usually discount the bar fine, the drinks, well no more than 2, as I would put that down to entertainment costs, so what she earned, she earned, but the bar fine was on her because I knew what the going rate was for a girl of her looks and the ceiling for me was 2,000 baht for the pretty ones, and 1,000 baht for the not so pretty ones, no scruffer and definitely none of the ones you like ????

  

[RobMuir]

15 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Bar fines are a scam,

I have always paid bar fines

 

Ok

[Drew3223]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:20 PM, RobMuir said:

Once you understand the way it works you can really exploit it. Being a foreigner it's easy to pretend you don't get it.

 

Use it to get people to do what you want.

Use it to humiliate people who deserve it.

Use it to get the very best service.

 

Use it with very polite and "soft" Thai language, always use their name and along with the appropriate facial expressions.

 

One of the many fun things about life in Thailand. Too easy.

hi @RobMuir

 

Great comment.

 

Would be grateful if you might briefly expand on the three benefits, as you sound like you know your stuff.

[b17]

3 hours ago, keithkarmann said:

Face is something that people with immature minds have problems with. Personally if I ever had that problem I finnished with it as I grew out of my teens and now I don't give a damm.

Well, perhaps it is now time to work on your grammar and spelling instead!  ????

 

[DBath]

2 minutes ago, b17 said:

Well, perhaps it is now time to work on your grammar and spelling instead!  ????

 

Do you always spend your days picking the lint off of towels?

[b17]

1 minute ago, DBath said:

Do you always spend your days picking the lint off of towels?

Actually, I spend my days teaching in an international school. How about you?

[4MyEgo]

34 minutes ago, RobMuir said:

  50 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Bar fines are a scam,

I have always paid bar fines

 

34 minutes ago, RobMuir said:

 

Ok

 

If your going to agree on what I said, best you quote it all.

 

52 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Bar fines are a scam, but it is the way things work, I have always paid bar fines, but not before asking the girl how much for her services, the bar fine and how many drinks I wanted to buy her, then I would negotiate with her on her fee, i.e. I would usually discount the bar fine,

 

There you have it in the real world.

[RobMuir]

9 minutes ago, Drew3223 said:

hi @RobMuir

 

Great comment.

 

Would be grateful if you might briefly expand on the three benefits, as you sound like you know your stuff.

 

I use in day to day life.

 

Eg.

Humiliate

Went to homepro to buy a window I saw on their website. Useless worker tells me they don't have any. I ask his name. Pon.

Then found it myself. 

 

So I then proceeded to a manager and told him Pon told me that they were out of stock, but these ones look similar, but I want to know the difference. The manager says they are the same but I request Pon explain the difference.

 

Eg 

Better service.

I was depositing a largish amount into the bank for a term deposit. Asked the teller what is the best term. The manager got involved, I got her name and agreed on the term. I was in a plaza so told her I would check with the other banks if they had a better rate.

As I was searching she called me to say they had a better deal with a cash management account that had a higher rate and I could withdraw without penalties.

 

The key in my experience is to ask and then use their name. 

 

I also use it to preempt times when they might try to lie to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DBath]

4 hours ago, b17 said:

Actually, I spend my days teaching in an international school. How about you?

I didn't ask you about your occupation, so I could really care less, nor am I impressed.

[bangon04]

9 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

The norm in Thailand will always be the norm, but when you take your wife outside of Thailand for 9 years to see how the real world works, then return to Thailand, then you will see a changed Thai, loss of face is but a façade, and she lets them all know it.

 

Make of that, what you will, but don't get me wrong, she is as polite as the day I met her 15 years ago, but I have seen this beautiful side to her as she began to adapt and now flourish.

I have to agree from my observations. Thais who spend time overseas often change their priorities in life. They may continue to play the game of Face when they are in their Thai social place.. but they do seem to place less value in it.

[topt]

4 hours ago, RobMuir said:

Eg.

Humiliate

Went to homepro to buy a window I saw on their website. Useless worker tells me they don't have any. I ask his name. Pon.

Then found it myself. 

 

So I then proceeded to a manager and told him Pon told me that they were out of stock, but these ones look similar, but I want to know the difference. The manager says they are the same but I request Pon explain the difference

Perhaps not a good example (from you) but not sure I understand why you would want to actively humiliate a worker in a Home Pro for no reason other than they were "useless". Not a good look in my view......

[Kanada]

7 minutes ago, topt said:

Perhaps not a good example (from you) but not sure I understand why you would want to actively humiliate a worker in a Home Pro for no reason other than they were "useless". Not a good look in my view......

topt

Pretty sure there’s a lot of people that don’t understand that one but it takes all kinds.

Bad falang behavior effects us all unfortunately????

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, bangon04 said:

I have to agree from my observations. Thais who spend time overseas often change their priorities in life. They may continue to play the game of Face when they are in their Thai social place.. but they do seem to place less value in it.

 

Not my wife, albeit she is polite, that is her her make up, however, when she is right, she won't back down, but when she is wrong, not often, she will apologise instead of trying to sweep it under the carpet.

 

She is very good at giving to those in authority, be it the police, or government departments, it's too bad I don't know the lingo, but then again, when in Thailand, she has always said to me, do as I do.

 

Don't get me wrong, when someone genuinely doesn't know something and doesn't try to wiggle out of it, she is ok with it, but stick that nose in the air and watch her pull it back down to earth quick smart, she seldom raises her voice, it's a bit like an art, she will be persistent and if someone turns their back on her, that is when she will raise her voice and start pointing the finger so others can hear, until someone else will come and take over and correct the wrong.

 

Loss of face is BS she tells me, as are a lot of other things, they are taught it from young which is wrong, hence the reason she doesn't accept it, unless it's genuine.

 

She really is a tame kind of gal.

[thailandusauk]

Who care what Thai think ? The one who has money is me and I do and say what I want. Born with balls and they are still here !

 

[RocketDog]

On 5/15/2021 at 8:20 PM, RobMuir said:

Once you understand the way it works you can really exploit it. Being a foreigner it's easy to pretend you don't get it.

 

Use it to get people to do what you want.

Use it to humiliate people who deserve it.

Use it to get the very best service.

 

Use it with very polite and "soft" Thai language, always use their name and along with the appropriate facial expressions.

 

One of the many fun things about life in Thailand. Too easy.

Truly Machiavellian. 

Interesting approach, but too much work for me. 

 

I just act like who I am, and if I don't think I understand something, I ask. If they give me non answers at least both parties understand that the effort was made. It's on them if they drop it. 

I have been with a Thai lady for nearly four years, and I often ask her questions about Thailand and Thainess.

She understands that I'm sincere and has slowly become more comfortable and forthcoming with answers. We often compare/contrast America and Thailand in everyday conversations. She's seen enough American cinema to have her own questions. 

We've discussed the Face issue as well, but I don't pretend to fully understand the depth of it. 

On the other hand, we can both laugh out loud when witnessing one of the countless egregious/common astoundingly ridiculous things people do here with cars and motorcycles. One of us turns to the other and says:

"TIT"

She completely understands what that means too. 

[Kanada]

38 minutes ago, thailandusauk said:

Who care what Thai think ? The one who has money is me and I do and say what I want. Born with balls and they are still here !

 

Yes sounds like you were born with one of the “b’s” alright (think about it for a few days...you’ll get it)????

My dear old grandpa pay used to say:

Better everyone “thinks” you’re an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!

[Kanada]

44 minutes ago, thailandusauk said:

Who care what Thai think ? The one who has money is me and I do and say what I want. Born with balls and they are still here !

 

Oh....one more thing

You’ve made it obvious you don’t have any money either????????

[donmuang37]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:07 PM, bermondburi said:

It's dog eat dog. If you have enough money nothing else matters.

Fully agree but also add in power.

Integrity?? In Thailand??  Right!!

????????????

 

[Saraburi121]

Sometimes differences have to be expressed in my experience, its just how you say or express it that means the difference.  Not talking about a night out in a bar but living in a village. Living here in a small village I was very passive at first but learned that I needed to show I would not put up with certain things.  If you don't you will get run over probably because the folks think you are weak.  Its a fine line.  Avoid direct confrontations and let the wife handle as much as possible but sometimes you have to stand your ground.  Living here the last thing you want are confrontations but don't be seen as afraid. Great relations in the village except for one individual who no one likes anyway.