Does COVID-19 origin really matter?

[Rookiescot]

Yes it does matter where the virus started. If it escaped from a lab where they were performing experiments with it then essentially that is toying with WMD's. We go nuts over countries developing nuclear or chemical weapons but somehow biological ones are ok?

  

If it occurred through natural means then steps need to be put in place at things like wet markets to prevent it happening again. 

 

However I do recall that the Chinese government were claiming that covid had come from frozen Scottish salmon.

[placnx]

12 hours ago, phills2k1 said:

You understand why something like freezing China out in trade will / could never happen, right?  This is all just talk for that hypothetical scenario where the ENTIRE world doesn't rely on China manufacturing, consumer goods, and exports right?

It will take time. Is there enough time? Taiwan should be very worried.

[placnx]

12 hours ago, phills2k1 said:

As has been the case countless other times, the Chinese government didn't give a flying **** about the potential ramifications of their actions. it's happened with pollution impacting climate change and destroying rivers and other habitats, the forced relocation of untold citizens, and the murder and starvation of millions.  And there were no international represcussions  They literally just stole back one of the most important places in the world in Hong Kong and nothing

 

In a perfect world, the rest of society doesn't rely on them so much and can actually bring on measures to enact change now and in the future.  That the world isn't perfect. And there's absolutely nothing that can or will be done to them in the likely event that they were responsible for the pandemic

A lot of countries very likely realize that China under Xi Jin Ping is a threat to the world. Now we are responding to Covid, so HK is not getting the attention that it otherwise would. Under cover of Covid, China was able to annul the international agreement on HK "autonomy". The world is biding its time to deal with China.

[placnx]

10 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Saying no is completely irresponsible and fairly daft. 

 

The Chinese have since been super aggressive all over the world. Any reasonable person can see this has been a deliberate attack. 

 

Anyway, this Thai PBS propaganda (potentially paid for by China) is pointless. The world WILL find out and there will almost certainly be military conflict in the next 5 to 10 years. 

 

China will pay a heavy price. 

 

 

This is a good discussion of China's intentions and possible outcomes:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2021-06-03/china-taiwan-war-temptation

[scorecard]

18 minutes ago, placnx said:

Unfortunately he can't be sued for acts in performance of his office.

 

Strange laws, seems to me he's seriously accountable for much better.

[placnx]

8 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

It really doesn't matter. 

We already know who was funding gain-of-function research on coronaviruses.

The big question we should be asking ourselves is if it was intentionally released.  

Intentionally released? "Highly unlikely". As a bioweapon, it would be OK (XI thinks) to release it on a blockaded island so that it will not affect others.

[digger70]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Apparently you need it spelled out for you:

 

If the pandemic occurred because the virus crossed species and ended up in humans, increasing safety standards in laboratories will not prevent future pandemics from beginning in the same manner.

 

If the pandemic occurred because of lax safety standards in a virus research laboratory, increasing hygiene standards in wet markets will not prevent future pandemics from beginning in the same manner.

 

That's why the origins of the pandemic matters.

 

BTW:  How do you "make a virus in a lab"?

Ask the Chinese in the Wuhan Lab .They know, same as any lab in other countries.

[pseudorabies]

Either way it's likely a lose - lose for China. If it came from the markets then the question is why didn't they learn from SARS 18 years ago?  If it came from a lab then what mistakes were made and how can they be avoided in the future.  But whichever one it is there is the issue of reporting and transparency. I think this is something that is ingrained in their culture and will be difficult to fix.

TBH the fact that they operate a BSL4 level lab scares the hell out of me.  And just like we're seeing from China as a nation, individual researchers aren't likely to admit to something that makes them look bad or could result in punishment regardless of the risk to other people.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, friendofthai said:

And this is the main reason WHY it was identified there. Because there are enough scientific stuff and expensive equipment in the lab for this. If such a virus appeared in an ordinary clinic - nobody had equipment to identify it.

Maybe the virus was sequenced in the Wuhan Institute when employees were hospitalized, but that was not disclosed to anyone AFAIK. The reports came later when hospitals were getting strange cases of pneumonia.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Considering an American company was financing the Wuhan institute it's a can of worms both would like to keep buried.

 

You ae referring to Daszak's non-profit. He was on the WHO team to investigate.

[Heng]

3 hours ago, HOAX said:

But lets be honest, it was the CCP who began spinning for its own political agenda. It wasn't before it became very clear that China lied and withheld data the world began taking an offensive approach. 1,5 years later China hasn't changed the slightest for the good, but rather gotten much worse, and clearly politicising the pandemic to the fullest themselves. 

 

IMO it's been heavily spun both ways.   As for not sharing information... well, it's not like they (the US and China for example) were friends to begin with.   I have neighbors I don't like and don't share information with, but I certainly don't mean them any harm.   

[placnx]

6 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I seriously wonder who and which global institution will handle the investigation that their verdict be accepted by all including those who hijacked the issue for political expediency and the crazies. The investigation is pointless in this atmosphere of steep division as no one will accept the conclusion. 

It should be international scientists from multiple countries/institutions with no conflict of interest, so several on the WHO team would not qualify. The team should have a brief to examine the labs, their documents, menageries, viral samples, confidential access to lab staff, etc, also sites such as the quarry where there were several fatalities from direct transmission of a Coronavirus. This location was sampled by Bat Woman (sorry, forgot her name). Obviously, interference by Chinese goon squads would be a non-starter, and minders would have to keep their distance.

[Kinnock]

16 hours ago, AnnieSeek said:

 What if they say no ?

The funding came from US .... class action?

[Cake Monster]

21 hours ago, AndyFoxy said:

Definitely. If the Chinese and US covered up the fact it was a lab leak and then millions died, it matters.

It also matters because the Human Race has the right to know what, ( and who ), and where it came from, has killed so many of their Loved ones and caused Economic ruin for so many over the last 18 Months or so.

The truth should be found, so that there is no repeat of this World disaster ever again.

And the only way to stop another Pandemic such as this is to find out the root causes of this one, and put in place mechanisms that prevent another.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, RocketDog said:

China can't declassify documents that were destroyed months ago. That's why they did it.

WHO noted that the Chinese admitted that early patient records and samples no longer existed. That tells a story by itself. With modern digital tools and storage, cleanly and comprehensively destroying data takes a conscious and concerted effort. They knew what they were doing and why. Though the cover-up effort is obvious, the deed is done.

Have the Covidized all the people who know something?

[phills2k1]

36 minutes ago, placnx said:

A lot of countries very likely realize that China under Xi Jin Ping is a threat to the world. Now we are responding to Covid, so HK is not getting the attention that it otherwise would. Under cover of Covid, China was able to annul the international agreement on HK "autonomy". The world is biding its time to deal with China.

Under the cover of Covid? 
 

Seriously, what do you think would’ve happened if there was no pandemic? Did any other country come to HK’s assistance in the prior year?

 

Or how about during their encroachment in the South China Sea for the previous decade?

 

 

[phills2k1]

Everybody knows what China’s intentions are, and there’s been absolutely zero actions by anyone in stopping it

 

The major powers of the world are far too reliant upon them to do anything. 
 

There’s been a literal genocide happening in plain sight for almost five years, and countries are scared to even mention it 

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, placnx said:

It should be international scientists from multiple countries/institutions with no conflict of interest, so several on the WHO team would not qualify. The team should have a brief to examine the labs, their documents, menageries, viral samples, confidential access to lab staff, etc, also sites such as the quarry where there were several fatalities from direct transmission of a Coronavirus. This location was sampled by Bat Woman (sorry, forgot her name). Obviously, interference by Chinese goon squads would be a non-starter, and minders would have to keep their distance.

 

First of all the would not be allowed in. Second of all any and all work being done in that lab has already been eradicated.

 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, phills2k1 said:

Everybody knows what China’s intentions are, and there’s been absolutely zero actions by anyone in stopping it

 

The major powers of the world are far too reliant upon them to do anything. 
 

There’s been a literal genocide happening in plain sight for almost five years, and countries are scared to even mention it 

 

Its going to come to a head with Taiwan. The world needs the semiconductors and chips that pretty much ONLY Taiwan can produce.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, rickudon said:

There is a lot of evidence that the Chinese government was less than honest about Covid-19, It was definitely circulating before January 2020 when it first made the news. 3 virology lab workers were hospitalised in November 2019, and the virus was already circulating in Italy in December 2019...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-sewage-idUKKBN23Q1J9

 

Laboratory accidents happen. In the UK research into Smallpox was terminated after a lab worker died (fortunately didn't get any further). Chinese face saving very likely and probably the virology lab kept quiet about it, then the Wuhan local government, because no-one wanted to take responsibility. They just hoped it would fail to spread and die out. But it didn't. By then too late. Whether it was gain of function mutation or natural, many different Coronavirus samples were kept in the virology Lab (which was close to the wet market). Also some of the earliest identified cases had no connection to the wet market. Logic tells you the virology lab was an obvious suspect. Accident i am sure, The Chinese government's draconian response with the Wuhan total lockdown on the 23rd January suggests an element of panic when they realised what had happened. Such lockdowns didn't happen with SARS, more measured approach back then.

 

I am no conspiracy theorist but there was enough circumstantial evidence available a year ago to point a finger. Proof? No, neither does any proof exist that it started at the wet market. if the virus existed in an animal population, other outbreaks would have been more likely. None have been found - only cases of Human to animal transmission. 

As you probably know, the Wuhan local government staged Chinese New Year banquets for 50000 people. Apparently they were not given accurate information (if any) early in the discovery phase. This compartmentalization is typical of the current retrograde regime. Speaks to secrecy involving the Wuhan lab.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, phills2k1 said:

The thing is, it's not a marital divorce, and what you're talking about would take decades to achieve

 

Do you think that countries can just snap their fingers and magically install the factories and necessary infrastructure (including transportation, ports and people) to replace the largest and most essential exporter in the world? 

 

Or find a consumer base to replace the 1.4 billion people in China?

 

Please explain how taking China out of the economy would work out positively

For starters, maybe China would no longer need to build 50 more coal power plants or continue deforesting the world.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

I do not assume you Andy ascribe to conspiracy theories and ' a secret and silent malevolence in the world hell bent of enslaving humanity and eating babies so as to find eternal youth.

"US covered it up" ? So far there appears zero evidence of anyone outside of China hiding zip, and little evidence at all apart from the Chinese desperately trying to hide their shock and extreme embarrassment at this virus. Which from world-scientific minds  has with all probability, spontaneously emanating out of China.

This spontaneous cross-species infection appears to be the current consensus of the scientific world at this time, but with a general consensus caveat that it could have been engineered and escaped but that this 'deliberate' scenario seems highly unlikely.

There were governments in 2020 (we know this definitely by examination of real-time factual timeline evidences), trying to avoid mass-panic by releasing information at a pace, and doing its best to gather back their balance in a rapidly changing and deteriorating world environment so as not to have the world rapidly across the globe descended into anarchy, and to play catch-up with the loud silence and information gaps both emanating out of China along with science in breaking down the DNA of this new bug and thereby understanding it.

Such catch-up scientifically is completely usual/normal and to be expected.

The problem we have seen emerging with more loudness is the non-fact, non-scientific, and active denialism of science by irrational, illogical, bizarre fantasy based child-thinkers that such normal progressions are somehow indicative of conspiracy and malevolence.

The tight lips of China can be easily and reasonably explained because one they are a Communist nation, two to ''save face' because they are Asians, and three are arguably very prideful about the rise of their nation and criticism of it by a Western press and governments that have shown (whether valid or not) at any opportunity leap in decrying China while ignoring hypocritically their own shortcomings and world damaging behaviours.

As part of the face-saving China automatically restrict embarrassing leaks to avoid any blowback in the international community. Add to that a totalitarian regime set amidst the way of the world is today i.e. leaks have happened, and their attempts to totally control the narrative have failed and give reason for conspiracy-needing folks to jump. The old spectre of 'the other' is pre-eminent here. Which psychologically is most convenient because while looking at the other we have no need to analyse ourselves. Some would say that Caucasian cultures are extremely good at this.

The censuring and removal of virologists and doctors from speaking out in China is in line with the face-saving totalitarian global-projection which China consistently engages in. Such behaviour does not automatically indicate a more complex, more nefarious intention ... other than the inherent one accepted as consistent of them. 

The circulation of conspiracy notions about this are highly-speculative at the very best, crazy at their worst. 

The hypothesis that a nation would release a high-morbidity virus amongst its own population willingly is a bizarre notion, and I would offer a bridge-too-far even for them. Selectively purging, reeducating and imprisoning people yes. The West of course is far more civilised. We simply set up our won 'enlightened' systems and racially crush select groups in order to further our Caucasian jingoism.

To offer up that the US would willingly engage in (2 presidents and administrations, Drs. like Fauci, numerous virology institutes across the globe, the AMA, The CDC, The WHO, The UN etc (no matter what might be said of the WHO's so-called sycophancy towards China - which itself is a contentious, highly dubious piece of [mis]information) would and have entered into a cover-up and allow a virus to enter its borders killing millions of people is also ludicrous and the stuff of idle, paranoid, Q ANON, Fox News anarchic Hollywood storyline thinking. 

Wet markets, for many, many decades, have been shown to be breeding grounds for cross-species virus transmissions this is not speculative but clear scientific traceable fact. Sars, H1N1 etc. have all found a virally ripe environment in these wet markets from east Africa to China.

The hypothesis that China did this and let it go by design to throw the world into chaos so they can profit in some way is also ridiculous fantasy as they have been smashed by the world economic downturn as all of us have. 

One important fact to remember in the impact of this virus on the planet is; The US had a few dozen specialist virologists in China (some in the Wuhan Lab itself) before this outbreak as part of the forward arm of a global virological prevention system (collaborated in globally with and via the US under Obama's inception and negotiations with China and many other nation-sites) and that this vital early warning system was dismantled by Trump in the first 2 weeks of taking office. 

There was and still is no reasonable, scientific, or other sound explanation for such a disassembling. This action by Trump was decried by pretty much the entire world scientific community and effectively blinded the world via on-site specialists to any influenza or other viruses emerging out of China or other places they are still encamped in across the globe.

The history or our awareness of viral illnesses from the superstitious dark ages to today's definitive modern medical science tells us that nature is always developing and adapting and so are viruses as they too are part of the natural world.  Assigning blame as other members have said seems to be a mute and worthless intent unless of course the intent is to propagate and promote a self-serving, jingoistic, and punitive-political agenda. The need to finds a perpetrator to lay blame on in order to deflect away from our vulnerability as living, finite, frail beings is for many a reflexive way of living and inherent. 

As many doctors, and science shows without equivocation; Viruses don't care about what nationality or demographic you hail from. It's sole intention and meaning of existence is to recreate itself. It has no consciousness, no morality, no good or bad, it simply works to survive and does so with extreme efficiency. Such reality (not a substitute-fake reality which suits or personal egotistical proclivities) is an inconvenience for those who work automatically to deny that we all live in inconvenient, impermanent existence.

It also seems difficult for some people to grasp the notion that labs experiment with viruses all the time (across the globe, and not automatically for nefarious reasons but to advance science, provide more bulwarks against disease, and improve the quality of life) in order to understand and invent preventions (yes some countries like Israel, the US, Russia, China, England etc experiment in creating biological weapons both viral and bacterial all the time and have for many many decades).

Too much disinformation here to comment specifically, except to note that US, probably UK, stopped research in biological weapons soon after WW2. As for Israel, Russia, and China, everybody would like to know.

[RocketDog]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

Are you referring to this:

 

"Over the course of the two grants approved by the NIH for EcoHealth Alliance, the Wuhan Institute received about $600,000 from the NIH, according to Robert Kessler, a spokesperson for EcoHealth Alliance. The funding was a fee for the collection and analysis of viral samples."  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/05/04/fact-check-obama-administration-did-not-send-3-7-m-wuhan-lab/3061490001/

 

I can not find any other mention of US funding for the Wuhan Institute.

It's a red herring. Remember that there are as many America Bashers here on TVF as there are Thai Bashers.

 

There is a rising number of China Bashers, myself included, and that's only one sign that the world is waking up to the threat.

 

[placnx]

2 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

Original 3 Chinese miners from the cave who were shoveling bat poo was confirmed to be a new type of corona virus then labelled RATG13. But this was said to be not human transmissible and they got it from the effects from shoveling of the bat poo. So start to the corona virus road to CV-19 is suggested to come from this and this miners accident was in the year 2012. Long time to be looking at this virus and plenty of time to tweak it have the new receptors allowing a human to human vehicle for transmission.

 

Is Genetic engineering is performed there at the Wuhan institute? - Yes. Is Gain of Function Engineering that basically speeds up hundreds to thousands of years of evolution is performed there at the Wuhan Institute- Yes. Now the question is while the normal science research was being performed, was there at the same time Sinister Research for biological warfare research being performed for the CCP military program? And did it get out by mistake or did it get released? 

 

For me it is important to find out the real truth and the why, and if questionable research for a biological weapon was the reason along with dual purpose of innocent research for future preventions of viruses. 

 

And no, that Chinese professor on the video link I would not believe anything he said as it sounded like an all pro China stance as a refutal of all intelligent based information and refusal of  blame. But the real truth needs to come out whether they are guilty as sin or it was innocent in research. Not a good track record for the ole CCP this day and age.

So the Wuhan Lab should have cameras and human monitors for the world to know what's going on 24/7? It's a horribly challenging task even to think about.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes it does matter where the virus started. If it escaped from a lab where they were performing experiments with it then essentially that is toying with WMD's. We go nuts over countries developing nuclear or chemical weapons but somehow biological ones are ok?

  

If it occurred through natural means then steps need to be put in place at things like wet markets to prevent it happening again. 

 

However I do recall that the Chinese government were claiming that covid had come from frozen Scottish salmon.

No they said "Norwegian salmon" because they have a "thing" with Norway over giving the Nobel peace prize to a Chinese dissident - interference in internal affairs, they would say.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

Strange laws, seems to me he's seriously accountable for much better.

The only hope is that he will not be elected again in 2024. Anyway, he may be busy then appealing convictions for other offenses. Can a felon be a candidate? In some states, such people cannot even vote.

Edited June 5, 2021 by placnx
add more fun reading

[placnx]

1 hour ago, pseudorabies said:

Either way it's likely a lose - lose for China. If it came from the markets then the question is why didn't they learn from SARS 18 years ago?  If it came from a lab then what mistakes were made and how can they be avoided in the future.  But whichever one it is there is the issue of reporting and transparency. I think this is something that is ingrained in their culture and will be difficult to fix.

TBH the fact that they operate a BSL4 level lab scares the hell out of me.  And just like we're seeing from China as a nation, individual researchers aren't likely to admit to something that makes them look bad or could result in punishment regardless of the risk to other people.

Your comments are very perceptive. China in fact needs an authentic Cultural Revolution, not the fake thing Mao made in a paranoid grasping. Think about the social and political strides that Taiwan has made since Chiang Kai Shek died and the KMT became one of several political forces. That should be the direction for China as well. I think that the face issue should take care of itself as society abandons its primitive aspects.

 

Creating a BL4 lab was ill advised, but there was an element of currying favor. After SARS there was an effort to set up sentinel points around China by Chinese CDC with international help, with internationals posted in Wuhan and around. Funding by China apparently dropped off after a while.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, phills2k1 said:

Under the cover of Covid? 
 

Seriously, what do you think would’ve happened if there was no pandemic? Did any other country come to HK’s assistance in the prior year?

 

Or how about during their encroachment in the South China Sea for the previous decade?

 

 

The creeping militarization of fake islands was a smashing success, and Obama was asleep at the switch on China, I'm sorry to say. With Covid all countries (except China) are facing such serious difficulties that the end of democracy in HK is not the big news. Please realize that China crossed the red line there only around June last year with the notorious National Security law.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Fromas said:

 

Source?

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

In Chapter 3 "No Credible Evidence", you will find a link to the Nature article that you mentioned:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9  "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2"

The whole Intelligencer piece is a great read and its major points have been confirmed (or repeated) in a lot of recent analyses.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

First of all the would not be allowed in. Second of all any and all work being done in that lab has already been eradicated.

 

How do you know what's going on in the Wuhan lab or any of the 144 viral labs in China?