UK State Pensions - yet another sick joke?

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, jojothai said:

 

 

 

Things have changed a lot in the last 5 years.
The Common Reporting Standard or "CRS" requires all banks and financial institutions to confirm your tax residence and tax ID. It is a regulatory requirement and you are liable for the declaration.

All of you with UK, EU, Channel Islands or even Hong Kong accounts would by now have been required to comply.
It has been implemented across most western countries, even China has joined.
But not yet in Thailand. They have agreed to join, but the final date appears to be postponed. Perhaps because of Covid.

The DWP has direct contact with the Inland Revenue. They take control of the pension from the Inland Revenue six months before the pension date. Any final AVCs you pay go to IR with DWP coordinating.
The Inland Revenue will have access to your Tax Residence information through any of the banks or financial institutions you use, unless they are outside the CRS. For Thailand that is currently the case.

Generally you make or made payments through a financial institution to IR and/or you are paid pension to one.
If all your banks and financial dealings are done through Thailand institutions you may think great - you will be invisible.
That may hide you, but it also exposes you to potential IR investigation. If the IR check and have no information for any UK banks or financial Institutions and you are being paid overseas its clear that you are potentially non -resident.
Then you are most likely to go on their list to be investigated.
Don't think this is an idle risk.
Even for small amounts, they may check a lot more than you think and claim that you are liable for tax or fraud. 

I know one person who went back to live in the UK, went back abroad for some time, then returned to UK.
They picked him out as suspicious and managed to check many records he thought they had no access.
Accused him of tax evasion and fined him heavily.

The state pensioners are nowhere near the IR unless their private pensions exceed a certain amount.

[Jumbo1968]

6 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

The state pensioners are nowhere near the IR unless their private pensions exceed a certain amount.

The U.K. State Pension is classed as taxable income, after deducting what is not used of that allowance the rest goes against a private pension if you have one.
I have a very small private pension and that is taxed at source as it’s above my annual tax free allowance.

[jojothai]

33 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

The state pensioners are nowhere near the IR unless their private pensions exceed a certain amount.

Yes, if you have a private pension and a state pension they may deduct tax at source and you have to fill out a tax return to reclaim.
What you say about IR relevance to state pensioners may have been true 5 years ago, however with the power of the databases and info they have these days it would likely take them little time or effort to check.

The government advice states that 
"If the State Pension is your only income
You’re responsible for paying any tax you owe. Fill in and send a Self Assessment tax return if you owe anything.

If you started getting your pension on or after 6 April 2016, don’t send a tax return.
HMRC will write to tell you what you owe and how to pay."
Therefore HMRC must get the information on how much you are getting, and make an assessment of cut off value otherwise they cannot do what is stated.

This likely has to indicate whether you are being paid as resident or non-resident.

 

Its highly likely that they do random checks for anybody declared as resident to check for other sources of income.

Even though the pension is paid gross, some people will have second pensions or continue to work part time and may not declare all income.
To do that they will be able to check the financial records now available to them under the CRS system.

I agree that the chances of being caught for false declarations is likely very low. But, there is still the risk.

Edited July 10, 2021 by jojothai
add info

[NoshowJones]

3 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Yes, if you have a private pension and a state pension they may deduct tax at source and you have to fill out a tax return to reclaim.
What you say about IR relevance to state pensioners may have been true 5 years ago, however with the power of the databases and info they have these days it would likely take them little time or effort to check.

The government advice states that 
"If the State Pension is your only income
You’re responsible for paying any tax you owe. Fill in and send a Self Assessment tax return if you owe anything.

If you started getting your pension on or after 6 April 2016, don’t send a tax return.
HMRC will write to tell you what you owe and how to pay."
Therefore HMRC must get the information on how much you are getting, and make an assessment of cut off value otherwise they cannot do what is stated.

This likely has to indicate whether you are being paid as resident or non-resident.

 

Its highly likely that they do random checks for anybody declared as resident to check for other sources of income.

Even though the pension is paid gross, some people will have second pensions or continue to work part time and may not declare all income.
To do that they will be able to check the financial records now available to them under the CRS system.

I agree that the chances of being caught for false declarations is likely very low. But, there is still the risk.

Nearly everything in life is a risk, if you are not prepared to take any risks, if you think you are hard done by in anyway, it is just going to be a waste of time getting up in the morning. If I did everything that the UK law says, I would not be in Thailand today.

[Jumbo1968]

6 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Yes, if you have a private pension and a state pension they may deduct tax at source and you have to fill out a tax return to reclaim.
What you say about IR relevance to state pensioners may have been true 5 years ago, however with the power of the databases and info they have these days it would likely take them little time or effort to check.

The government advice states that 
"If the State Pension is your only income
You’re responsible for paying any tax you owe. Fill in and send a Self Assessment tax return if you owe anything.

If you started getting your pension on or after 6 April 2016, don’t send a tax return.
HMRC will write to tell you what you owe and how to pay."
Therefore HMRC must get the information on how much you are getting, and make an assessment of cut off value otherwise they cannot do what is stated.

This likely has to indicate whether you are being paid as resident or non-resident.

 

Its highly likely that they do random checks for anybody declared as resident to check for other sources of income.

Even though the pension is paid gross, some people will have second pensions or continue to work part time and may not declare all income.
To do that they will be able to check the financial records now available to them under the CRS system.

I agree that the chances of being caught for false declarations is likely very low. But, there is still the risk.

You can’t reclaim tax as you will have exceeded your annual tax allowance, I don’t complete an annual tax return, HMRC send me a an online statement every year. They are aware of my private pension and send what is left of my tax code to the company who deduct tax from my annual payment and forward to HMRC.

[NoshowJones]

32 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

The U.K. State Pension is classed as taxable income, after deducting what is not used of that allowance the rest goes against a private pension if you have one.
I have a very small private pension and that is taxed at source as it’s above my annual tax free allowance.

Yes, I know.

[jojothai]

Just now, possum1931 said:

Nearly everything in life is a risk, if you are not prepared to take any risks, if you think you are hard done by in anyway, it is just going to be a waste of time getting up in the morning. If I did everything that the UK law says, I would not be in Thailand today.

I understand your point, but Its nothing to do with all the other risks we face.
So people can go around making false declarations without caring a damn.
In Thailand I think that may be very risky, unless you have a large wallet or don't mind being locked up, or kicked out.

[jojothai]

6 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

You can’t reclaim tax as you will have exceeded your annual tax allowance, I don’t complete an annual tax return, HMRC send me a an online statement every year. They are aware of my private pension and send what is left of my tax code to the company who deduct tax from my annual payment and forward to HMRC.

Thanks.
What you state shows that the HMRC are getting the pension payment information and assessing it.

[bradiston]

9 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Yes, if you have a private pension and a state pension they may deduct tax at source and you have to fill out a tax return to reclaim.
What you say about IR relevance to state pensioners may have been true 5 years ago, however with the power of the databases and info they have these days it would likely take them little time or effort to check.

The government advice states that 
"If the State Pension is your only income
You’re responsible for paying any tax you owe. Fill in and send a Self Assessment tax return if you owe anything.

If you started getting your pension on or after 6 April 2016, don’t send a tax return.
HMRC will write to tell you what you owe and how to pay."
Therefore HMRC must get the information on how much you are getting, and make an assessment of cut off value otherwise they cannot do what is stated.

This likely has to indicate whether you are being paid as resident or non-resident.

 

Its highly likely that they do random checks for anybody declared as resident to check for other sources of income.

Even though the pension is paid gross, some people will have second pensions or continue to work part time and may not declare all income.
To do that they will be able to check the financial records now available to them under the CRS system.

I agree that the chances of being caught for false declarations is likely very low. But, there is still the risk.

They seek him here

They seek him there

Those taxmen seek him everywhere

Is he in Bali?

Is he in Bee?

That damned elusive OAP

[jojothai]

3 minutes ago, bradiston said:

They seek him here

They seek him there

Those taxmen seek him everywhere

Is he in Bali?

Is he in Bee?

That damned elusive OAP

They don't seek him anywhere

The data is already in their care.

[Jumbo1968]

4 minutes ago, jojothai said:

They don't seek him anywhere

The data is already in their care.

The only data the HMRC have is my National Insurance Number and my address, they have no idea wether I am living in the U.K. or abroad.

[jojothai]

14 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

The only data the HMRC have is my National Insurance Number and my address, they have no idea wether I am living in the U.K. or abroad.

Do you have a bank or financial account of any kind in the UK?
What address do they use for you.
Are any accounts declared as non-taxable,
or do they have any reason to believe that you are working or resident abroad.

Edited July 10, 2021 by jojothai
add info

[hotandsticky]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You've seen the letter?

It sounds unlikely ................

 

 

Done on the phone.

 

He made the mistake of admitting that he had claimed his pension whilst living in Thailand - but using a UK address. They demanded, and he agreed, that the over-payments for 18 months were repaid.

 

No, I haven't seen any correspondence but I am not aware that the guy has ever lied to me before in the 12 years I have known him. Like most expats here he is more likely to brag about what he gets away with.......

 

Another friend was caught out when a Life Certificate was sent to an old UK address - his son had moved and nobody thought to advise DWP. On that occasion he told DWP that he had spent winters in the UK but now that he was retired he had decided to live here full time. DWP simply froze him from that date  -  a far more common action on their part.

[Jumbo1968]

15 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Do you have a bank or financial account of any kind in the UK?
What address do they use for you.
Are any accounts declared as non-taxable,
or do they have any reason to believe that you are working or resident abroad.

I am retired, my bank accounts are in the U.K. and I own property in the U.K which is my residential address. When I was employed abroad I always ensured I never lived more than 90 Days in the U.K. That has now changed courtesy of Osborne, if you own a property in the U.K. you are classed as resident and liable for tax.

[rumak]

Sorry,  i could only get through page 1.    I am not British (is that the correct term for UK citizens ) ...........  but,  anyone from any country who is a "normal citizen" seems to get screwed in one way or another.

Hence Rumak's oft repeated words that "all govts are self-serving **********s "  and could not

care less about their slaveworkers citizens .   I grew up thinking we should "save" ,  put money in the bank,  and we would get enough interest to live , if not royally, at least within some comfort.   HAH !   00.5%    And inflation (real, not the bs the put out) driving most into the ground.      

OK......... let's get back to Thai bashing 

[jojothai]

25 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I am retired, my bank accounts are in the U.K. and I own property in the U.K which is my residential address. When I was employed abroad I always ensured I never lived more than 90 Days in the U.K. That has now changed courtesy of Osborne, if you own a property in the U.K. you are classed as resident and liable for tax.

If you are resident in the UK as you state and it is declared like that then the banks will not question your residence.
Under the CRS 
A 'Reportable Person' is any individual holding a financial account and identified by them as a reporting entity (such as your Banks) in one country as being resident for tax purposes in another reportable country.
So you will not be subject to any CRS reporting or declarations from your banks.

Are you resident in Thailand and no longer in the UK for any more than the 90days (or whatever the period is now).
If so, I question the understanding of the UK tax rules with regard to being tax resident because of owning a property in the UK. I am not aware of that being the case, and know many individuals here who are in similar position and non resident.
You are subject to taxation on any income in the UK, whether from the property or otherwise subject to annual allowance.
Changes recently meant that you are subject to any capital gains if non-resident.

There are conditions that you have to meet to be non-resident and these can be interpreted in various ways.
I am posting here to not to judge or criticize people, sometimes I can help.
I think you may need to check the understanding of the conditions.
Can you refer me to where it is stated or which condition applies. Other people I know may be very keen to know te particulars

Edited July 10, 2021 by jojothai
add info

[jojothai]

43 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I am retired, my bank accounts are in the U.K. and I own property in the U.K which is my residential address. When I was employed abroad I always ensured I never lived more than 90 Days in the U.K. That has now changed courtesy of Osborne, if you own a property in the U.K. you are classed as resident and liable for tax.

I was looking and found the rules about UK resident or not summarised on the following page.
https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights/tax/private-client/leaving-the-uk
It is probably the sufficient ties test - item 2 that may be considered applicable..

 

or it could be the family ties. I know somebody caught out by that.

NOTE that visit up to 90 days, you are allowed 2 ties.
if you only have the property. It is only one tie and you should be able to be classed as non -resident under 90 days.

Edited July 10, 2021 by jojothai
add info

[BritManToo]

59 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

They demanded, and he agreed, that the over-payments for 18 months were repaid.

Another friend was caught out when a Life Certificate was sent to an old UK address

1) Voluntary repayments is entirely different from forced repayments.

Credit cards play the same game, you only have to pay debts back if you want to.

 

2) Another odd one, as proof of life is only required from pensioners living overseas.

Edited July 10, 2021 by BritManToo

[fredscats]

3 hours ago, jojothai said:

 

 

 

Things have changed a lot in the last 5 years.
The Common Reporting Standard or "CRS" requires all banks and financial institutions to confirm your tax residence and tax ID. It is a regulatory requirement and you are liable for the declaration.

All of you with UK, EU, Channel Islands or even Hong Kong accounts would by now have been required to comply.
It has been implemented across most western countries, even China has joined.
But not yet in Thailand. They have agreed to join, but the final date appears to be postponed. Perhaps because of Covid.

The DWP has direct contact with the Inland Revenue. They take control of the pension from the Inland Revenue six months before the pension date. Any final AVCs you pay go to IR with DWP coordinating.
The Inland Revenue will have access to your Tax Residence information through any of the banks or financial institutions you use, unless they are outside the CRS. For Thailand that is currently the case.

Generally you make or made payments through a financial institution to IR and/or you are paid pension to one.
If all your banks and financial dealings are done through Thailand institutions you may think great - you will be invisible.
That may hide you, but it also exposes you to potential IR investigation. If the IR check and have no information for any UK banks or financial Institutions and you are being paid overseas its clear that you are potentially non -resident.
Then you are most likely to go on their list to be investigated.
Don't think this is an idle risk.
Even for small amounts, they may check a lot more than you think and claim that you are liable for tax or fraud. 

I know one person who went back to live in the UK, went back abroad for some time, then returned to UK.
They picked him out as suspicious and managed to check many records he thought they had no access.
Accused him of tax evasion and fined him heavily.

Always "they they they" or" someone else". This is nothing but sheer bunkum

 

Are you disputing the DWP website as to guidance? or law? sounds as if you are then you are full of baloney.

 

University in UK did a survey on benefit fraud along with DWP law...  findings were..for the individual pensioner on state pension nobody has ever been prosecuted. or ever will be, and is 100% free of proceedings legal or civil,now that was an eye opener,and I may add no state pensioner will ever be obliged to pay back/ or receive reduced pension...read it  go on read it

 

Search for it its there , DWP and university concerned reports,... perhaps an apology from you, your"they picked him up" is a figment...but hang on here ,yes indeed why not write to DWP and point out how wrong they are in instruction and the university concerned as to their findings are wrong too,,but please do not waste your time here,get onto DWP immediately ,if not sooner and point out the error of their ways   now a feather in your cap awaits    If due diligence is followed you would not put this trash up,go seek,go look it up,its there

 

Your comments are pure trash

 

[Jumbo1968]

Last September 2020 £3.5 million fraudulent claims estimated on the furlough scheme, what would the figure be now, are HMRC going to concerned about a few OAP falsifying claims on their State Pension.  

[fredscats]

1 minute ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Last September 2020 £3.5 million fraudulent claims estimated on the furlough scheme, what would the figure be now, are HMRC going to concerned about a few OAP falsifying claims on their State Pension.  

Pensioner cannot falsify OAP as to potential punishment as none exists

[jojothai]

15 minutes ago, fredscats said:

Always "they they they" or" someone else". This is nothing but sheer bunkum

 

Are you disputing the DWP website as to guidance? or law? sounds as if you are then you are full of baloney.

 

University in UK did a ,and I may add no state pensioner will ever be obliged to pay back/ or receive reduced pension...read it  go on read it

 

 perhaps an apology from you, your"they picked him up" is a figment...but hang on here ,

 

Your comments are pure trash

 

Somebody asked "In what way,please explain,not pie in the sky stuff either,but actual information"

This is about false declarations. For you then it is totally acceptable.
I already agreed that the chances of being caught for false declarations is likely very low. But, there is still the risk.
Did you not read all the posts and where somebody reported obligation to pay back.
Some people are so narrow minded. It is you who should apologize

Edited July 10, 2021 by jojothai
clarification

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Last September 2020 £3.5 million fraudulent claims estimated on the furlough scheme, what would the figure be now, are HMRC going to concerned about a few OAP falsifying claims on their State Pension.  

Probably - after furlough stops.

[fredscats]

2 minutes ago, jojothai said:

This is about false declarations. For you then it is totally acceptable.
Did you not read all the posts where somebody reported obligation to pay back.
Some people are so narrow minded. It is you who should apologize

Obviously you are frozen and bitter. I quoted "read it" you surely have not ,another ignoramus who should know better,no falsehoods,no false declarations....again and again read up on it   ,its there  black and white

 The OP "Bonanza "awaits,almost 10% increase coming up  lol

[Nickelbeer]

On 7/9/2021 at 11:26 AM, bkk6060 said:

Good luck with it.

I never understand why and how the UK people put up with it.

Just a terrible system screwing over pensioners.  What ever happened to all the money?

 

The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries

Seems to me that the UK has a better pension and healthcare system than America. We Yanks don't have anywhere near the social safety net that Brits enjoy. Count your blessings.

[jojothai]

2 minutes ago, fredscats said:

Obviously you are frozen and bitter. I quoted "read it" you surely have not ,another ignoramus who should know better,no falsehoods,no false declarations....again and again read up on it   ,its there  black and white

 The OP "Bonanza "awaits,almost 10% increase coming up  lol

Read the posts again. There is no hang ups or bitterness.
It is only you that introduced the bitterness and hang up that you advise everybody to make false declarations.

[rumak]

Jojo .............. I thought you came from Phoenix, Arizona   ?

[fredscats]

1 minute ago, jojothai said:

Read the posts again. There is no hang ups or bitterness.
It is only you that introduced the bitterness and hang up that you advise everybody to make false declarations.

Ive read,and have read further(have you?)  Seems as there is bitterness as lengthy gormless twaddle is dished out repeatedly ,  yours too  I stated "no false declarations",have not made one,and if I did what punishment awaits?...none   Read DWP website instead of repeating trash

[Neeranam]

On 7/9/2021 at 11:26 AM, bkk6060 said:

Good luck with it.

I never understand why and how the UK people put up with it.

Just a terrible system screwing over pensioners.  What ever happened to all the money?

 

The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries

it's not all bad, i will get a full pension for paying just 150 pounds a year class 2 contributions for 25 years here, working for 5 years in the UK and 5 years paid by govt when I was a student and unemployed. 

[ballpoint]

30 minutes ago, rumak said:

Jojo .............. I thought you came from Phoenix, Arizona   ?

Close, but no California grass.

"Jojo left his home in Tuscon, Arizona".