Work remotely

[Tayida]

If I work remotely once will be in Thailand, do I need a work permit? Like teaching online?

[Swiss1960]

When you work in Thailand, you need a work permit. That said... the so called "digital nomads" who work online from within Thailand BUT ONLY for companies OUTSIDE Thailand do normally not bother about work permits, it is a grey zone really, and as long as you don't brag about it, nobody will really find out or care. 
Don't let your employers from outside Thailand send your salary directly to your Thai bank account, route it through a bank or financial institution outside Thailand. Many people use Wise for that. 

[Tayida]

Just now, Swiss1960 said:

When you work in Thailand, you need a work permit. That said... the so called "digital nomads" who work online from within Thailand BUT ONLY for companies OUTSIDE Thailand do normally not bother about work permits, it is a grey zone really, and as long as you don't brag about it, nobody will really find out or care. 
Don't let your employers from outside Thailand send your salary directly to your Thai bank account, route it through a bank or financial institution outside Thailand. Many people use Wise for that. 

The school I work with, its outside Thailand. Do you think will be safe without a WP?

[The Cipher]

16 minutes ago, Tayida said:

The school I work with, its outside Thailand. Do you think will be safe without a WP?

It'll be fine. I worked remotely in Thailand for 8 months earlier this year. Will do so again in the future. Canadian firm paying to my bank account in Canada. Didn't get asked about it even once and I never got the impression that anyone cared at all.

[Crossy]

I'll echo the above, technically you need a WP and a company, although ministers in the past have said that "digital nomads don't need one" then a week later one of the work-spaces gets raided! 

 

In reality nobody bothers if you're working online.

 

Tell nobody what you are doing or what your source of income is, the risk is minimal but ...

 

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

I'll echo the above, technically you need a WP and a company, although ministers in the past have said that "digital nomads don't need one" then a week later one of the work-spaces gets raided! 

 

In reality nobody bothers if you're working online.

 

Tell nobody what you are doing or what your source of income is, the risk is minimal but ...

I am aware of exactly one case (up in Chiang Mai in 2006) where a co-working space was raided. This resulted in zero prosecutions, and is widely assumed to have been a mistake. Are there others that have occurred of which I am unaware?

 

My own belief is that the authorities are aware

1. there is no mechanism by which you can get a work permit as a digital nomad working for foreign companies and/or customers; and
2. many people arrive in Thailand for fairly short periods carrying out some remote work while here alongside other activities, such as tourism. There is no desire to deter such individuals from visiting Thailand.

For these reasons, Thailand tolerates digital nomads as long as they are not competing with Thais for Thai jobs or customers. It would be awfully difficult to draw the line between incidental work by short term visitors, and remote work done by those here for a longer period. There is no attempt to do so. If you can get a permission to stay, remote work will not get you into trouble.

[LivinLOS]

Legally you need it.. Anyone telling you that by law it is exempt if you dont have Thai clients is either a fool or a liar (the elite folks have said this and I leave it up to you to work out which they are). 

In reality it is near impossible to prove as long as you dont self incriminate. NEVER tell anyone that you could have a dispute with what your doing, landlords, locals etc.. Keep it private and if encountering any authority and issues its shut the <deleted> up friday.. Only you can get yourself in trouble. 

[LivinLOS]

21 hours ago, BritTim said:

I am aware of exactly one case (up in Chiang Mai in 2006) where a co-working space was raided. This resulted in zero prosecutions, and is widely assumed to have been a mistake. Are there others that have occurred of which I am unaware?

www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?

 

"he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand"

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?

"he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand"

The article is more than 2 and half years old and is more about the immigration detention center (IDC).

I suspect there is more to the story since it only mentioned he was reported by a neighbor. Maybe he was on a overstay and that was the reason for deportation.

[Peterw42]

OP, its not so much about working remotely etc, its about "what visa will you stay on" ?????

 

If you are under 50, not married to a Thai etc, there are no (legal or cheap) long stay options.

 

if you are legit, and keep a low profile, nobody will know or care if you are working remotely .

Edited September 13, 2021 by Peterw42

[BritTim]

24 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?

As @ubonjoe wrote, we do not know the whole story. Based on the fact that he was able to arrange his deportation within 10 days, it is unlikely that he was convicted of a crime. It appears the authorities (likely with inducements from influential neighbours) just decided that he was an undesirable, and decided to order his deportation. He could have appealed, but this would likely have been futile, and simply meant he spent a lot more time in the IDC.

 

The horrific conditions of the Thai IDCs is well known, and the article adds nothing new for those familiar with Thailand.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, its not so much about working remotely etc, its about "what visa will you stay on" ?????

 

If you are under 50, not married to a Thai etc, there are no (legal or cheap) long stay options.

 

if you are legit, and keep a low profile, nobody will know or care if you are working remotely .

 

there is a legal option and easy process to get it: Thai Elite

But it is not cheap.

 

re the remote work, as long as you are not working for a Thai company/client and not being paid in Thailand, and keep a low profile, I agree you would almost certainly be OK - though it is technically still illegal.

[majhiggins]

You cannot GET a WP to work for a foreign country remotely in-Thailand, unless that remote work is work performed in Thailand and has a physical work address. Work permits are intended to regulate foreigners' access to Thai jobs. Unless it is a Thai company or the foreign company for which you do business is in Thailand, a work permit is not only not required, it is un-obtainable. Of course, you'll  never be able to get a Non-O work visa through foreign employment like that either. 

[khunPer]

On 9/12/2021 at 12:25 AM, Tayida said:

The school I work with, its outside Thailand. Do you think will be safe without a WP?

You'll not be "safe", but nobody might care about it. Lots of digital nomads does it "under the radar", i.e. officially living from their savings, all customers or employer being abroad, and all money settled abroad into an offshore account.

 

If you stay in Thailand for more than 180 days within a calendar year, you are fully income taxable in Thailand. Foreign income is taxable if transferred into Thailand during the same calendar year as earned. Savings are however free from income tax, foreign income transferred in later calendar years than it's earned, is considered savings; i.e. money earned in 2021 can be transferred as tax exempt savings in 2022...????

 

For visa option you might consider a Thai Elite Card...????

Edited September 13, 2021 by khunPer

[mockingbird]

OP, immigration have no interest in digital nomads. They issued a statement to that effect a couple of years ago. 

 

Your bigger issue will be your visa. Assuming you're under 50,  tourist visas and border hops are an option when normality returns, but immigration have.been cracking down the last few years on people deemed to be spending too much time in Thailand on tourist visas .

 

You could fork out for an elite visa, but it's not cheap.

[cocoonclub]

10 hours ago, khunPer said:

officially living from their savings, all customers or employer being abroad, and all money settled abroad into an offshore account.

As someone who has a boring corporate job with a work permit here and likes to not risk that, I may be too boring and old and risk-averse to understand these things, but I’ve always wondered how that works in practice.
 

Don’t you need a bank account to accept payments? Don’t you need an office address, or at least use your private address? If none of that is in Thailand (because you would then expose yourself to the Thai authorities) but you’re a “nomad” without living anywhere, what bank account and address do people put into their Adsense accounts, iTunes accounts, Amazon accounts, or however they earn money? And if they use their home country’s address (if they still have), aren’t they then taxable there again?

 

Or do people really open offshore shell companies in Belize for selling an eBook or having some followers? 
 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by cocoonclub

[Misty]

9 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

As someone who has a boring corporate job with a work permit here and likes to not risk that, I may be too boring and old and risk-averse to understand these things, but I’ve always wondered how that works in practice.
 

Don’t you need a bank account to accept payments? Don’t you need an office address, or at least use your private address? If none of that is in Thailand (because you would then expose yourself to the Thai authorities) but you’re a “nomad” without living anywhere, what bank account and address do people put into their Adsense accounts, iTunes accounts, Amazon accounts, or however they earn money? And if they use their home country’s address (if they still have), aren’t they then taxable there again?

 

Or do people really open offshore shell companies in Belize for selling an eBook or having some followers? 
 

 

The address on a bank account does not confer tax residency.  Primarily where you actually live is what matters.

 

Say you have an account at the US bank JP Morgan Chase, and you have a Florida address on it. This does not necessarily make you a tax resident of Florida.  Say instead that it has a Thai address on it.  This also does not make you a tax resident of Thailand.

 

Living in Thailand would make you a tax resident - and stamps in a passport would be evidence of this.

 

There is also the issue of domicile. Some US states require a declaration of "domicile" in exchange for providing certain services - such as issuing a state driver's license.  For example, if someone declares they are "domiciled" in OH in order to get a driver's license, the state's laws make that person also subject to OH income tax - even if their passport says they live in Thailand.

 

Fun, no?

[jwest10]

On 9/12/2021 at 5:25 AM, Tayida said:

The school I work with, its outside Thailand. Do you think will be safe without a WP?

Just be careful and do not know of anyone prosecuted but often wondered about this and all the adverts for on line teaching but beware of the latter one too.

[jwest10]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:05 AM, LivinLOS said:

Legally you need it.. Anyone telling you that by law it is exempt if you dont have Thai clients is either a fool or a liar (the elite folks have said this and I leave it up to you to work out which they are). 

In reality it is near impossible to prove as long as you dont self incriminate. NEVER tell anyone that you could have a dispute with what your doing, landlords, locals etc.. Keep it private and if encountering any authority and issues its shut the <deleted> up friday.. Only you can get yourself in trouble. 

In most cases unless you are single this would be impossible but yes we were all told when much younger sometimes must take chances in life and yes outside Thailand an you know the gossips even within families. Is it worth it but we all badly need money!!!

 

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, Misty said:

The address on a bank account does not confer tax residency.  Primarily where you actually live is what matters.

Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I am more wondering how those digital nomads do it, ie. what bank account and address they use. If they use Thailand, they risk being found illegally working here. If they use their home country (assuming they still have an address there), the authorities there could assume the person still has tax residency there. At least they would tax the business there right? At that point, would they also report this to the Thai authorities as the digital nomad informed his local tax authorities where he is a tax resident now? 

 

[khunPer]

11 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

As someone who has a boring corporate job with a work permit here and likes to not risk that, I may be too boring and old and risk-averse to understand these things, but I’ve always wondered how that works in practice.
 

Don’t you need a bank account to accept payments? Don’t you need an office address, or at least use your private address? If none of that is in Thailand (because you would then expose yourself to the Thai authorities) but you’re a “nomad” without living anywhere, what bank account and address do people put into their Adsense accounts, iTunes accounts, Amazon accounts, or however they earn money? And if they use their home country’s address (if they still have), aren’t they then taxable there again?

 

Or do people really open offshore shell companies in Belize for selling an eBook or having some followers? 

There might be different ways round it, I know that some for example use PayPal for transactions.

 

Some can still have a business registered in their home country, even that they might live abroad, and are tax residents abroad. That is for example possible in my home country, both a personal owned business or a limited company, which could be registered on a friends address, but with no production facility, which gives even further benefits, as a personal owned company then will not be taxable of  profit in the home country, but can still have a bank account; i.e. the offshore bank account, or the one linked to a PayPal account.

 

Others use an off shore limited company, for example a Britisk Ltd., which requires almost zero capital to open, furthermore the taxation is reasonable. I know some that use a British limited company for business. Other nations might be even better destinations for offshore companies.

 

If you just work online as a person, you can have offshore bank accounts many places, Singapore is often used. You can be personal app-developer and sell your apps via Apple's or Google's app-shops; or you can just do various online jobs, like for example copywriter or translations; or write ad hoc program-code for websites or apps.

 

And there might be way more elegant methods than I know about, or can imagine...????

[lordblackader]

On 9/12/2021 at 5:21 AM, Swiss1960 said:

When you work in Thailand, you need a work permit. That said... the so called "digital nomads" who work online from within Thailand BUT ONLY for companies OUTSIDE Thailand do normally not bother about work permits, it is a grey zone really, and as long as you don't brag about it, nobody will really find out or care. 
Don't let your employers from outside Thailand send your salary directly to your Thai bank account, route it through a bank or financial institution outside Thailand. Many people use Wise for that. 

It has never been a "grey zone" - it's a legal requirement that if you're working in Thailand you need an appropriate visa and work permit. 

 

Do authorities care that much if you're working online for a foreign company - no, you can even read what the Chiang Mai Employment Office says about it.

 

But when they care it's still 100% illegal - enjoy the jail time. Rare but it has happened. 

[LivinLOS]

20 hours ago, jwest10 said:

In most cases unless you are single this would be impossible but yes we were all told when much younger sometimes must take chances in life and yes outside Thailand an you know the gossips even within families. Is it worth it but we all badly need money!!!

 

There are other countries in the world... And ways to pay tax and be legal.

[stratocaster]

Around 4 weeks ago there was an interview with the president of some Thai small business association. In a nut shell what he said was, now that Thais understood the concept of working out of the office environment, now was the time to start small outsourcing companies for local and foreign companies. He stressed the need to to form a legal Thai company as there were tax deferments etc. to be had. My first thought when I read that, was if it comes to fruition will the Thai authorities  still turn a blind eye to foreign remote works working under the radar as it could be seen as taking jobs from Thais.

[Misty]

21 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I am more wondering how those digital nomads do it, ie. what bank account and address they use. If they use Thailand, they risk being found illegally working here. If they use their home country (assuming they still have an address there), the authorities there could assume the person still has tax residency there. At least they would tax the business there right? At that point, would they also report this to the Thai authorities as the digital nomad informed his local tax authorities where he is a tax resident now? 

 

The business would be taxed by its legal jurisdiction.  The digital nomad may not own the business - very often they're just working online as a private contractor for a third party.  The digital nomad could have a bank account in one country and physically be in another. They may also use some other payment system - say Paypal, or perhaps a cryptocurrency account.  The digital nomad owes income tax where they're considered to be tax resident (usually where they actually live) - not where the business is or where their bank or financial institution is.

 

Some tax jurisdictions may want the digital nomad to declare themselves non tax-resident in writing with proof before allowing them to rescind a prior tax residency.

 

 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, stratocaster said:

Around 4 weeks ago there was an interview with the president of some Thai small business association. In a nut shell what he said was, now that Thais understood the concept of working out of the office environment, now was the time to start small outsourcing companies for local and foreign companies. He stressed the need to to form a legal Thai company as there were tax deferments etc. to be had. My first thought when I read that, was if it comes to fruition will the Thai authorities  still turn a blind eye to foreign remote works working under the radar as it could be seen as taking jobs from Thais.

A large aspect of the problem is that 1) it is near impossible to prove if the person doesn't self incriminate and 2) Thailand is so reliant on tourism they are terrified to make a blanket statement that threatens punishment for a  genuine visiting tourist who checks work email or logs into an office system while on holiday.. Its another one of these badly codified laws that they simply ignore until they choose not to.. Its very clearly the law, but its also one that they could create massive negative PR for a vital industry should they actually start enforcing it. 

In any sane country they would clearly legally establish a system of exemptions (no Thai clients, no duration over, no etc) and or combine that with some kind of revenue gathering incentivised with incountry extensions.. But fundamentally its still a banana republic (with the xxxx as the head of state !!!) with nicer malls.. They seem pathologically incapable of clear well defined laws, creating a justice system based on prior case law, etc etc. Case in point would be something like defining work and using the term they are defining in the definition.. Total logic 101 fail. 

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, Misty said:

The digital nomad owes income tax where they're considered to be tax resident (usually where they actually live) - not where the business is or where their bank or financial institution is.

Correct.. But a large part of the world, Thailand included practices a system where for 'active income' they operate a physical presence test.

In other words if you are engaged in performing an activity within the country, as opposed to commissions, dividends, rents, or other forms of passive income, your tax resident from day 1 that the activity is practiced. 

The myth that dual taxation agreements prevent this or that 180 days needs to elapse first is simply a lack of understanding how tax territory can be defined and determined. 

[Misty]

1 hour ago, stratocaster said:

Around 4 weeks ago there was an interview with the president of some Thai small business association. In a nut shell what he said was, now that Thais understood the concept of working out of the office environment, now was the time to start small outsourcing companies for local and foreign companies. He stressed the need to to form a legal Thai company as there were tax deferments etc. to be had. My first thought when I read that, was if it comes to fruition will the Thai authorities  still turn a blind eye to foreign remote works working under the radar as it could be seen as taking jobs from Thais.

Here's hoping outsourcing will become the standard for small businesses, as it is pretty much everywhere.

 

To be successful, most start ups/small businesses rely on outsourcing certain types of work, rather than hiring employees.  If you think about it, what's the best way for a small firm to handle, say, accounting/tax filing - should they:  1) try to hire an accountant (whom the small firm must keep trained, pay a salary far more than work needed, have some sort of expensive incentive scheme to keep them interested, supply office space, a desk, computer, etc, and then risk losing them and starting over as soon as a better offer comes)  OR should they 2) outsource the task to a full time, professional accounting firm that can do all these things far more effectively?

 

The answer is pretty obvious.  Yet Thai Immigration still requires small businesses who want foreign expertise/knowledge transfer to maintain 4 Thai employees per foreigner for each NonB extension. This policy is completely dysfunction for the small businesses - whether they are Thai or foreign owned. Getting foreign expertise into a small firm in this environment is nearly impossible. 

 

Allowing and encouraging outsourcing would be a huge positive leap for the economy.