Electric vehicles of all kinds

[LarrySR]

36 minutes ago, seedy said:

Nothing to contribute - let the insults begin.

Agreed. He shouldn’t be calling people “liars” just because he’s too stupid or lazy to look things up. 

[Yellowtail]

11 hours ago, LarrySR said:

Any simpleton can look it up. Could be a problem for you though. 

 

That must be why you are having so much difficulty. 

 

You make the same silly claims over and over but are never able to support them.

 

Typical Fox viewer 

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

Agreed. He shouldn’t be calling people “liars” just because he’s too stupid or lazy to look things up. 

I never called you a liar, nor do I think you are a liar.

 

What I said was: "You're not real concerned with being truthful are you?"

 

I assume you believe what you say, but you are unable to support it. You claimed that the fossil fuel industry had press releases DAILY telling lies about renewables and EVs, yet you have refused over and over to link to even one. 

 

Either admit you made a mistake or post a link. 

 

 

[sandyf]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:46 AM, crazykopite said:

To purchase a new Nissan Leaf in Thailand the cost is 1.95 million baht it’s time this so called government stopped the ridiculous import charges

In the UK the Nissan Leaf ranges from £27K to £35K, my DiL has just been a bit extravagant.

 

Nissan Leaf S 2022 Price in Thailand is THB 904,200 (US$27,400)

https://www.ccarprice.com/th/nissan-leaf-s-2022-price-in-thailand-6913

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In the UK the Nissan Leaf ranges from £27K to £35K, my DiL has just been a bit extravagant.

 

Nissan Leaf S 2022 Price in Thailand is THB 904,200 (US$27,400)

https://www.ccarprice.com/th/nissan-leaf-s-2022-price-in-thailand-6913

From the Nissan-Thailand website: 

 

 

 

THE ALL-NEW NISSAN LEAF | Nissan Motor Thailand

[seedy]

12 hours ago, LarrySR said:

Any simpleton can look it up. Could be a problem for you though. 

 

1 hour ago, LarrySR said:

Agreed. He shouldn’t be calling people “liars” just because he’s too stupid or lazy to look things up. 

As is shown - my reply was directed at your posts, not his.

I have found that - in a discussion - those who run out of ammo, or ideas, - can't construct a pertinent reply to a question - are the first to fall back on a personal attack against the person who posed the question in the first place.

Anyone who can not see the strategy behind this whole EV business - which in some cases is practical but in most not even remotely at this point in time - chooses to ignore any dissenting argument in favor of their own bias.

Way of the World

[KhunLA]

฿2M  ... nah ... I can think of better things to spend that extra ฿1M on.  2m for an unimpressive 4 wheels, I don't think so.

2X the USA price.  If they build it here, would it still be 1m.

 

Along with no gov't incentives to buy, $20k USD brings it down to nicer entry level ICE.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

Just now, KhunLA said:

฿2M  ... nah ... I can think of better things to spend that extra ฿1M on.  2m for an unimpressive 4 wheels, I don't think so.

2X the USA price.  If they build it here, would it still be 1m.

People buy Porches at 4-5 times the price. 

 

The import-duty/excise-tax policies here are arguably good. Rich people have to pay more for luxury, performance or ideology, while the non-rich have plenty of cost effective options available to them.

 

What the rich have to pay helps subsidize the non-rich. 

[KhunLA]

34 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

People buy Porches at 4-5 times the price. 

 

The import-duty/excise-tax policies here are arguably good. Rich people have to pay more for luxury, performance or ideology, while the non-rich have plenty of cost effective options available to them.

 

What the rich have to pay helps subsidize the non-rich. 

But if the top end of the poor, those that do buy a new vehicle in the family, then going EV could be quite the money saver in the long run.  Motors will run forever, and 8 yrs from now, battery cost will be much improved.

 

I think Thailand has one of the fairest tax codes, one main reason I'm here.   They could lower the excise tax on entry level cars, as 100k is a bit silly, and adds and extra 25% to the sticker price.  Enough to keep many from buying.

 

At least eliminate the excise tax on small engine p/u's.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

But if the top end of the poor, those that do buy a new vehicle in the family, then going EV could be quite the money saver in the long run.  Motors will run forever, and 8 yrs from now, battery cost will be much improved.

The key word being could.

 

Aside from the motor, nothing else in an EV lasts longer or requires less maintenance than a traditional vehicle.   Batteries may or may not be cheaper in eight years, but clearly there is no reason to assume they will be. Best case, some new technology and economy of scale kick-in, but with it comes a huge increase in demand. And what happens to fuel prices? With the proliferation of renewables and EVs, fossil fuel prices are driven down. 

 

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I think Thailand has one of the fairest tax codes, one main reason I'm here.   They could lower the excise tax on entry level cars, as 100k is a bit silly, and adds and extra 25% to the sticker price.  Enough to keep many from buying.

 

At least eliminate the excise tax on small engine p/u's.

I think your assumptions about the tax rates are incorrect, do you have something to support them? 

 

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The key word being could.

 

Aside from the motor, nothing else in an EV lasts longer or requires less maintenance than a traditional vehicle.   Batteries may or may not be cheaper in eight years, but clearly there is no reason to assume they will be. Best case, some new technology and economy of scale kick-in, but with it comes a huge increase in demand. And what happens to fuel prices? With the proliferation of renewables and EVs, fossil fuel prices are driven down. 

 

I think your assumptions about the tax rates are incorrect, do you have something to support them? 

 

I disagree with with both.  I think as alternatives come about, fuel prices will just go up & up.  As they do (now) when less people drive, they increase them.  So less ICEs, and prices will rise.  

 

Taxes ... don't think you can get any fairer than 7% VAT ... across the board.  Especially for retired.  They have the sliding income tax, but your really have to become quite comfy to get any real tax on your income.

 

More income you have, more toys you buy, more tax you pay.  Kind of fair.  Import tax, protectionism for Thai business, though unfortunately, not really developing much manufacturing of what is imported, so may be counter productive.

[Yellowtail]

40 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I disagree with with both.  I think as alternatives come about, fuel prices will just go up & up.  As they do (now) when less people drive, they increase them.  So less ICEs, and prices will rise.  

So it is your position that  (in an arguably free market) supply and demand do not impact prices, is that correct?

 

If that is true, how is it when oil production is cut, prices go up, and when production is increased they go down? 

 

40 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Taxes ... don't think you can get any fairer than 7% VAT ... across the board.  Especially for retired.  They have the sliding income tax, but your really have to become quite comfy to get any real tax on your income.

You claimed that excise taxes added 25% to the sticker price of an entry ever car, do you have anything to support that claim or not? 

 

Who is the 7% fair for? It seems incredibly regressive to me that billionaires pay the same tax as the poor. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

More income you have, more toys you buy, more tax you pay.  Kind of fair.

Yes, when someone spends all their money to survive, they pay 7% of their income. 

 

When the rich spend 25% of their income to live in luxury, they pay 1.75% of their income. 

 

Yes, that's kind of fair, if you're rich. 

 

40 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Import tax, protectionism for Thai business, though unfortunately, not really developing much manufacturing of what is imported, so may be counter productive.

 

Again, do you have anything at all that supports this?

 

Do you really think all the multinational automobile, air-conditioning, textile & consumer product companies would be manufacturing here if there were no import duties? 

 

Please provide some examples of what you are talking about. 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

You claimed that excise taxes added 25% to the sticker price of an entry ever car, do you have anything to support that claim or not? 

When we bought out Mazda2, it was about 515k baht, and we got 100k rebate of excise tax (Thanks Ms Toxin), so price without, just over 400k + 25% excise tax, hence 500+k price paid.

 

Buddy got only 60k rebate, for Nissan March when they first came out, and think the price was 350ishk baht back then.

 

I think 60k was the minimum and 100k was the max rebate you could get.

Edited January 5, 2022 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

When we bought out Mazda2, it was about 515k baht, and we got 100k rebate of excise tax (Thanks Ms Toxin), so price without, just over 400k + 25% excise tax, hence 500+k price paid.

 

Buddy got only 60k rebate, for Nissan March when they first came out, and think the price was 350ishk baht back then.

 

I think 60k was the minimum and 100k was the max rebate you could get.

That's all you have, really? I think you're leaving a few things out of the "first car buyer's rebate scheme" that was what, eight to ten years ago? In any evert, I agree the excise tax on eco cars (which I think is currently something less than 15%) is too high. 

 

So we're both for eliminating excise taxes. What about everything else? 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

That's all you have, really? I think you're leaving a few things out of the "first car buyer's rebate scheme" that was what, eight to ten years ago? In any evert, I agree the excise tax on eco cars (which I think is currently something less than 15%) is too high. 

 

So we're both for eliminating excise taxes. What about everything else? 

 

 

 

 

I think it's 8% on EVs, well, according the this info-snapshot, though 2 cars, 1 Thai, 1 not, got a pass ... hmm

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I think it's 8% on EVs, well, according the this info-snapshot, though 2 cars, 1 Thai, 1 not, got a pass ... hmm

 

I only saw two that were exempt, both Thai. I think they should all be zero. 

 

So what about everything else we were talking about?

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Yellowtail
clarity

[seedy]

Thai built - 664,000 THB 180 Km range

Fomm One - At this point, I must say that the FOMM One is a car that is more suitable for short-term city use and probably won't compete with a city car. or eco-cars that are currently sold for sure in terms of safety

https://motortrivia-com.translate.goog/2018/04/fomm-one-electric-vehicle-launches-in-thailand/?_x_tr_sl=th&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

So a high priced unsafe car - bound to be a winner

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I only saw two that were exempt, both Thai. I think they should all be zero. 

 

So what about everything else we were talking about?

 

 

 

Fuel, when EV are the majority, the petrol will be a niche market and more expensive.

 

Taxes, poor/rich, learned not to debate that.  I think if you earn it, you keep it, and the only fair tax, is a flat, across the board tax for all.  No credit, no allowance, or deductibles for anyone, any reason.

 

Make 50k baht a year, pay 10% or whatever rate is.

Make 50M baht a year, pay 10% 

[seedy]

Terra EV is a line of 100% battery-electric heavy-duty vocational trucks built for surface mining, quarries, airport and municipal maintenance, among other rugged off-road applications.

https://www.terra-ev.com/

[guzzi850m2]

4 hours ago, seedy said:

Thai built - 664,000 THB 180 Km range

Fomm One - At this point, I must say that the FOMM One is a car that is more suitable for short-term city use and probably won't compete with a city car. or eco-cars that are currently sold for sure in terms of safety

https://motortrivia-com.translate.goog/2018/04/fomm-one-electric-vehicle-launches-in-thailand/?_x_tr_sl=th&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

So a high priced unsafe car - bound to be a winner

That link is from 2018??

[seedy]

For a company striving to reduce carbon emissions and wastage, this is a seriously bad move from tesla to not provide schematics, parts, or other materials needed by independent firms that would fix such issues for a fraction of the price. It’s a shame really.

 

[placeholder]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:12 PM, Longwood50 said:

You have hit on a point that is often disregarded.  The cost of a car includes, what you pay for it, how much it costs to operate it, minus what you get for it, after you eventually sell it. 

In the beginning, General Motors would only "lease" not sell its electric vehicles.  By doing that, the user knew exactly what cost they would incur per month.  GM knew that new technology, and unknown resale value would stop potential future buyers, so to prevent that, they leased only. 

I have not run the calculations on an electric vehicle.  However, they cost more than a comparable gasoline model.  They are expensive to completely replace the batteries when they are needed.  By contrast, a used motor in an 8 year old Camry is pretty cheap, but a complete new battery pack in an 8 year old electric Camry is not cheap. 

My own personal experience comes only with owning a Lexus Hybrid.  I paid 25% more for the hybrid over its comparable gasoline model.  It got no better gas mileage than the other 4 identical Lexus SUV models that I owned previously and when I sold it 4 years later the resale value on the Hybrid was identical to the gasoline models that as said, sold for 25% lower price to begin with. 

My suspicion is that electric vehicles will prove economical the more miles you drive.  Hybrids will only prove economical for those who drive almost exclusively city stop and go traffic.  If electric cars are 'truly cheaper"  the marketplace will favor them, providing the nuisance of constantly having to stop and recharge is minimized. 

For now, at first glance, the higher up front cost and the likelihood that the resale value will be hugely impacted the closer it is likely that the batteries will have to be replaced.  Those "used cars" are worth only what the marketplace says they are worth.  Having the manufacturer guarantee a resale value only places them at risk for taking the loss if the resale value of those used electrics is low.  To make up for that, they would have to increase the original price to compensate for future losses which does nothing but push the cost to the front end. 

I would prefer for the marketplace to dictate whether it is gas, hybrid, electric, or perhaps hydrogen power etc that turns out to be the best value.  Having bureaucrats decide that "electric" is the only option only guarantees that those with the most to benefit from electric car sales will make sure there is enough graft passed on to politicians to make that happen. 

 

If all the costs of an ICE vehicle were factored in, namely externalities, they would be a lot more expensive that what their current prices are. The health and degradation of infrastructure costs coming from the burning of fossil fuels is currently reckoned at about 6% of global GDP. And their share of those costs is not being paid by the automobile industry.

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, seedy said:

Terra EV is a line of 100% battery-electric heavy-duty vocational trucks built for surface mining, quarries, airport and municipal maintenance, among other rugged off-road applications.

https://www.terra-ev.com/

And as Terra notes:

"Regenerative braking and a much more robust drivetrain mean that Terra EV off-road trucks last significantly longer than diesel. When you factor in incentives, fuel and maintenance, the total cost of ownership is lower—and your operation is much cleaner. Terra EV is the logical solution for reducing your carbon footprint."

https://www.terra-ev.com/

[Bandersnatch]

Often see EV haters posting "Don't get your EV wet ????"

 

 

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

If all the costs of an ICE vehicle were factored in, namely externalities, they would be a lot more expensive that what their current prices are. The health and degradation of infrastructure costs coming from the burning of fossil fuels is currently reckoned at about 6% of global GDP. And their share of those costs is not being paid by the automobile industry.

Yes, that 6% is one of the subsidies the fossil fuel industries get.

[Medicine Man]

So, has anyone bought an ORA Good cat here yet? These look way better than the MG EVZS and have an amazing range of 500km for the Ultra model.

https://www.gwm.co.th/en/ora-good-cat/

 

Tesla Bjorn is currently back in Chiang Mai and says he will test one shortly... 

[guzzi850m2]

1 hour ago, Medicine Man said:

So, has anyone bought an ORA Good cat here yet? These look way better than the MG EVZS and have an amazing range of 500km for the Ultra model.

https://www.gwm.co.th/en/ora-good-cat/

 

Tesla Bjorn is currently back in Chiang Mai and says he will test one shortly... 

Why is it costing double price as in China? I thought there was no import taxes on vehicles from China.

 

Very girly looking car in my opinion.

 

Who is Tesla Bjorn? Never heard the name before.

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, guzzi850m2 said:

Why is it costing double price as in China? I thought there was no import taxes on vehicles from China.

 

Very girly looking car in my opinion.

 

Who is Tesla Bjorn? Never heard the name before.

2X the price for imports ... Welcome to Thailand

 

Tesla Bjorn - YT'er, Thai speaks English and does EV (car / scooter) reviews.

https://www.youtube.com/user/bjornnyland/videos

 

[Medicine Man]

11 hours ago, guzzi850m2 said:

Why is it costing double price as in China? I thought there was no import taxes on vehicles from China.

 

Very girly looking car in my opinion.

 

Who is Tesla Bjorn? Never heard the name before.

The price seems comparable to the expected UK price, I couldn't find the price in China. GWM have poached one of Porches guys hence you can see the likeness to the German brand from the front. 

Tesla Bjorn is big on YouTube

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Medicine Man said:

The price seems comparable to the expected UK price, I couldn't find the price in China. GWM have poached one of Porches guys hence you can see the likeness to the German brand from the front. 

Tesla Bjorn is big on YouTube

starts at < ฿550k in China