Pandora Papers expose world leaders’ offshore entities, Thai tycoon families among listed

[bbbbooboo]

Hmmm..........oh tell me it isn't true (sob)

[chilly07]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

That wealthy Thai business families are using offshore companies is a total non-story. There is nothing illegal about it and they are probably not even avoiding Thai tax.  The earlier Panama papers revealed Thai politicians and civil servants using offshore companies.  Now that was interesting but nothing was done to investigate it, other than probably some negotiations and brown envelopes passed to ensure no investigations. 

Tax avoidance is the declared reason for offshore companies but they are also used for money laundering from illegal activities and bolt holes for when the malfeasance is discovered. The UK seems to have cornered the market in offshore activities and much of the high end property world relies on offshore accounts with direct links to the alledged world's mafia and Brexit is designed to make the whole of the UK an alledged haven for dubious funds with the City leading the way.

[todlad]

While it might be true that some of the schemes these people are using, there are a few things that need to be said.

Edward Snowden made the point about the people who are NOT on the Pandora list. He also suggested why they are not on the list. The likes of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are all absent. The reason they are absent is because they do not need to hide their wealth because they have deals in place that ensures they pay just 0.1% or 0.45% tax on their incomes.

Agree with such an outcome or not, it is a valid observation.

ABC, Australia, put together a really good programme on this subject and it is well worth watching: https://youtu.be/4kPLpZN3I3A One of their main points is that these schemes lead to unfairness: no one knows who is doing these deals and no one knows what they are doing with their assets ... apart from our knowledge via the Panama and Pandora Papers that is. They then explain that it is not unusual for these people to buy properties as part of their portfolios, they tend to pay top whack, ergo prices in general suffer from price pressure and they increase: that, they say, squeezes out the locals who, at the margin, can no longer afford to buy that property.

The average man in the street cannot be a member of one of these kinds of clubs that we are talking about here: they cannot avoid tax like they do, they cannot hide their assets like they do.

In the UK, the famous tax dodger Jacob Rees Mogg typifies the attitude of the people here: last week he said the Britain is already taxed to the limit. Well, not you Rees Mogg, since your wealth is parked, tax free, in the Cayman Islands.

 

These are some of the issues at stake here. However, ICIJ promise  lot more revelations to come. but, as I said to a friend of mine last night, re the ABC film, The good guys in that film quite clearly stated that nothing much has happened post the Panama Papers Cack Yourself for a Fortnight Event! The same here, I suspect, some people are currently worried to death over these revelations ... but the fear will pass and the energy of law enforcement fades.

[Albert Zweistein]

6 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Meme coins will often pump big but volatility is high.

 

Invest in tech and grow your portfolio as adoption increases with less risk. 

I just keep them for fun and see where it ends.

[JMonroe]

This list can't be complete unless the Shinawatras are on it. How could he not have significant, if not most of his wealth stashed overseas when he is living overseas and in conflict with powers that be that have shown they are willing to confiscate his wealth? Even before that, when he sold Shin Corp, he used several shell companies in the Caribbean to move the money around.

[VocalNeal]

9 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

as  far as im concerened  tax  is a  game and I  tell them as  little  as  possible.

Most of it they know already. Including, probably, the flight number on which you arrived in Thailand.

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by VocalNeal

[Thunglom]

Thailand has the biggest rich poor divide in the world after India and Russia

[spidermike007]

What we really want to know about, are the overseas accounts of Prayuth, Prawit, the proxy senators, the toxic generals, and the top cops. How about some investigative work there? 

[dunroaming]

22 hours ago, 2 is 1 said:

Most of  offshore entities  are not illegal! Its only good tax planning. If you have several million's capital, why pay extra tax or tax over tax. I was doing tax planning, my Finnish company owner was my Estonia company whitch was owned company in Scotland. In Scotland i had only adress whit 3 other guy's, one room residence. But if want pay extra tax go for it. Have sold already all, dont know how this company "trik" works now days. But normal things, ofcourse if there is criminal money that kind need find.

Nothing wrong with prudent tax planning and businesses employ tax advisors to do that all the time.

 

However!  There is a vast difference between that and Heads of State/Presidents etc. squirreling away public funds for their own personal gain.  That is where the interest is with this (excuse the pun).

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, JMonroe said:

This list can't be complete unless the Shinawatras are on it. How could he not have significant, if not most of his wealth stashed overseas when he is living overseas and in conflict with powers that be that have shown they are willing to confiscate his wealth? Even before that, when he sold Shin Corp, he used several shell companies in the Caribbean to move the money around.

 

46 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

What we really want to know about, are the overseas accounts of Prayuth, Prawit, the proxy senators, the toxic generals, and the top cops. How about some investigative work there? 

The Pandora Papers do not provide a comprehensive list of every offshore entity and every person involved in such entities.

 

"The so-called “Pandora Papers” investigation, involving some 600 journalists from media including The Washington Post, the BBC, The Guardian, Radio France and the Indian Express, is based on the leak of some 11.9 million documents from 14 financial services companies around the world. "

 

I don't know how many financial services companies there are that provide these kind of services, but I'm sure the number is much larger than 14.

[toolpush]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Funding the government is immoral?  Do you also believe government is immoral?

Yes

[spidermike007]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Funding the government is immoral?  Do you also believe government is immoral?

Yes. Absolutely. Name one government that is not. Power corrupts totally. 

 

Though I did hear a rumor that there were 6 moral politicians in Scandinavia. 

[unblocktheplanet]

I trust all of you filled out the forms every bank in the world now uses to report to the US.

[rainham]

 Immoral 

[chrisandsu]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

What we really want to know about, are the overseas accounts of Prayuth, Prawit, the proxy senators, the toxic generals, and the top cops. How about some investigative work there? 

This is why the investigations in offshore money will go absolutely nowhere . Who do you think will be doing the investigation ? Most likely a corrupt official who has been  doing the very same thing . 

Edited October 5, 2021 by chrisandsu

[heybruce]

14 hours ago, heybruce said:

Funding the government is immoral?  Do you also believe government is immoral?

 

6 hours ago, toolpush said:

Yes

 

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Yes. Absolutely. Name one government that is not. Power corrupts totally. 

 

Though I did hear a rumor that there were 6 moral politicians in Scandinavia. 

Perhaps I should have been more clear:  Which do you think is more immoral, imperfect government by imperfect people, or the lawless anarchy that inevitably leads to domination by warlords or autocratic regimes such as the Taliban?

 

If you have a historic example of an ungoverned society leading to a better outcome, please provide it.

Edited October 5, 2021 by heybruce

[kiwikeith]

22 hours ago, Joules said:

Meanwhile, back in the good old US of A, the Biden Administration wants to put the spotlight on every American bank account worth $600 or more.  Hey man, this ain't no joke, there must be some unpaid taxes in there somewhere.  

There is a book written on this involving NZ, The Wine Box by Rod Wishart, named the wine box as documents were discovered in a wine box in the Cook Islands.

In that book it mentions of a meeting during the Americas Cup between the NZ sponsor at that time and some big financial boys in New York, amazingly NZ was about 4 Zip up in KZ7 when suddenly in the next race NZ hit the marker, in a turn and Dennis Connor bounced back with his new Dolly Sail and Dupont coating on the hull, Chris Dickson the NZ skipper lost every race after this alleged meeting.

The NZ sponsor was allegedly involved in tax schemes in the Caymans and other offshore tax havens, as were many of NZ's supposedly finest law firms and wealthiest people.

Strangely one of the sponsors took refuge in Ireland as he had dual citizenship. No one was ever prosecuted.

[Sydebolle]

Surprise, surprise - but keep the underlings happy and tell them, that the value-added-tax remains stable for just yet another year ........... 

[Mr Meeseeks]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:13 AM, heybruce said:

Funding the government is immoral?  Do you also believe government is immoral?

Certainly.

 

History proves that they steal individual personal wealth and kill people with almost total impunity. 

[heybruce]

36 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Certainly.

 

History proves that they steal individual personal wealth and kill people with almost total impunity. 

Please note my post above. 

 

Anarchy results in far more theft and destruction of personal wealth and the far more deaths than all but the most extremely brutal governments.  That is why people will accept brutal authoritarians after a period of lawless anarchy.

 

Do you have a viable, more moral alternative to government?

Edited October 6, 2021 by heybruce

[Mr Meeseeks]

18 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Please note my post above. 

 

Anarchy results in far more theft and destruction of personal wealth and the far more deaths than all but the most extremely brutal governments.  That is why people will accept brutal authoritarians after a period of lawless anarchy.

 

Do you have a viable, more moral alternative to government?

Yes, sovereign individuality. 

[Mr Meeseeks]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Anarchy results in far more theft and destruction of personal wealth and the far more deaths

I doubt that anarchy would result in more deaths than the wars governments waged in the 20th Century. 

 

In fact I would argue that there would be far less deaths if governments were abolished altogether and people started taking responsibility for their own lives. 

[rudi49jr]

1 hour ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yes, sovereign individuality. 

In other words, survival of the strongest/fittest? We all know that quite a few people have absolutely no respect for other people’s properties, well being or even lives. How do you suppose we’re going to stop those from robbing everyone blind?

[spidermike007]

12 hours ago, heybruce said:

 

 

Perhaps I should have been more clear:  Which do you think is more immoral, imperfect government by imperfect people, or the lawless anarchy that inevitably leads to domination by warlords or autocratic regimes such as the Taliban?

 

If you have a historic example of an ungoverned society leading to a better outcome, please provide it.

Well, it is all in the question, is it not? Of course I believe in effective government. But, it is an ideal. Not a reality. Certainly some governments bring a form of law and order to society. And it is likely true that imperfect government is better than lawlessness. However, I think Thailand has order, and a reasonable degree of safety, despite the police and the government, not because of them. There is very little in the way of true law and order here, and the cops here are mostly useless, spectacularly corrupt, highly partial and selective, and poorly trained. And the government here, while somewhat useful, and modestly effective at some of what it is tasked to do, is so immoral it boggles the mind, and the degree of incompetence is stunning. 

 

The people on the other hand seem to have respect, honor and a sense of right and wrong, and that is the glue that holds this society together. Little of that applies to a society like America, and many others where law and order seem to be truly needed. 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yes, sovereign individuality. 

Wow, what a concept!

 

Please give an example of any society in history in which that has worked.  Any society in which people not only governed themselves without government, but also organized themselves to promote overall prosperity with things like roads, sanitation, irrigation, education, etc.  without government.  Of course your example must also be of a society that protected itself from the looters and pillagers raiding along the borders, again without government.

 

Get real.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Well, it is all in the question, is it not? Of course I believe in effective government. But, it is an ideal. Not a reality. Certainly some governments bring a form of law and order to society. And it is likely true that imperfect government is better than lawlessness. However, I think Thailand has order, and a reasonable degree of safety, despite the police and the government, not because of them. There is very little in the way of true law and order here, and the cops here are mostly useless, spectacularly corrupt, highly partial and selective, and poorly trained. And the government here, while somewhat useful, and modestly effective at some of what it is tasked to do, is so immoral it boggles the mind, and the degree of incompetence is stunning. 

 

The people on the other hand seem to have respect, honor and a sense of right and wrong, and that is the glue that holds this society together. Little of that applies to a society like America, and many others where law and order seem to be truly needed. 

And yet without Thai government, as bad as it is, Thai society would collapse.  Roads, rails, and power grids would not be maintained.  The six families would become the six warlords vying for power.  Rebel and criminal organizations just across the borders would cross the borders.

 

It's easy to criticize governments.  Yet whenever governments collapse or are toppled, chaos reigns.  History has demonstrated this repeatedly, many times recently.

[KhaoYai]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:44 PM, Rampant Rabbit said:

as  far as im concerened  tax  is a  game and I  tell them as  little  as  possible.

Unfortunately though, its a game that us 'ordinary people' never win.  Whereas those with the ability to hide their money and pay substantially less tax seem to be able to do so with ease. Parent/Holding Companies are set up in low or zero tax locations and send forward management charges to their subsidiaries elsewhere, swallowing up much or all their profits. The profit ends up in the tax haven - thus no or reduced tax.

 

A system set up by and for the rich - try doing that on PAYE. The whole system is set up to make sure the majority of us have no choice but to pay our taxes.  Quite often offce cleaners end up paying more tax than the directors who's offices they clean!

Edited October 6, 2021 by KhaoYai

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I doubt that anarchy would result in more deaths than the wars governments waged in the 20th Century. 

 

In fact I would argue that there would be far less deaths if governments were abolished altogether and people started taking responsibility for their own lives. 

Then why is it that whenever a government falls and anarchy reigns, the people will accept any kind of new government that promises order? 

 

How do you propose to ensure that everyone will take responsibility for their own life and respect the lives and properties of all others.  What do you propose individuals do when other individuals aren't sufficiently responsible.

 

Once again, give me an example of a society that has functioned without government.

 

BTW:  Bad government costs lives.  Good governments save lives. 

 

"During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths.^[5][6][7] In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year.^{[8]"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox}

 

^{Smallpox was declared eradicated in 1979.  This was due to a concerted effort by good governments.  Were it not for that smallpox would be killing even more people today in are more crowded world.}

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by heybruce

[VocalNeal]

Phew. They missed my IOM account!

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yes, sovereign individuality. 

Is that something like the "sovereign citizen" talk of people that don't want to wear masks or get vaccinated?  Does sovereign individuality allow individuals to spread dangerous diseases?