Oh the irony...

[Tropposurfer]

BS all round. The argument for non-fossil fuel sources is valid. Any nitwit with any sense of perspective and scientific understanding knows that coal fired is filthy energy and terribly toxic. The issue is not a smart A post about the hypocrisy, naivete', or arrogance of EV drive systems of their users its about the impetus to transition as quickly and sensibly from a toxic-filthy fuel source to a cleaner and yes, then evolution after evolution to yet again other transitional fuel source before the next form of even less dirty energy is discovered/invented.

[kennw]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:36 PM, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

these righteous EV drivers probably either dont think that their car recharge comes from fossil fuels or maybe believe it comes from “ clean “ energy like solar / wave / hydro, which machinery in turn requires….. coal, oil.

Boris Johnson was once asked "where the power comes from" he said "from the plug !" 

[DefaultName]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:36 PM, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

these righteous EV drivers probably either dont think that their car recharge comes from fossil fuels or maybe believe it comes from “ clean “ energy like solar / wave / hydro, which machinery in turn requires….. coal, oil.

Many of them don't care, not all, but a lot.  They want to be SEEN to be green, but they don't actually care.  

[ballpoint]

Another piece of irony, or rather hypocrisy, is, that due to the energy shortages in China - mainly due to rising coal prices for their power stations, Tesla suppliers have cut production, leading to further production cuts at Tesla itself.  Try building an electric car without coal fuelled electricity.  Can't be done at present.

[tjo o tjim]

Energy balance still favors dirty coal powered electric car compared to gasoline.  Maybe not if you are 1000 miles away from said dirty coal power plant and it is the only source of power in that radius… 

 

It only gets better the more you clean up or eliminate the coal… 

[KhunLA]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:36 PM, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

these righteous EV drivers probably either dont think that their car recharge comes from fossil fuels or maybe believe it comes from “ clean “ energy like solar / wave / hydro, which machinery in turn requires….. coal, oil.

It does if you make it so.  Easily done, to power your home & EV with solar.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

yes, at substantial capital cost…….

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

yes, at substantial capital cost…….

Actually at same or less cost, than being on the grid & ICEs.  Thailand now has an extensive charging station network, though may be a bit lacking if most had EVs for long distance driving.  Those that do now, and shop at Central mall / Robinsons along with others get free charging while at the mall.  Lack of EV ownership numbers keeps availability open now.

 

Was at Paseo mall yesterday and 3 or 5 bays for charging, all empty, but free while shopping.  We still have an ICE / MG ZS, and if not only 1 yr old, would consider changing to an EV.  E-scooter now for my everyday, wasteful driving to park & surf.  Could easily walk or ride bicycle to both.  Keep the MG for heavy shopping and long haul out & about such as now.  Don't want a saleng / side cart on the scooter, as will take the fun out of driving it.

 

Next car will be EV, as simply makes sense, financially and environmentally, if believing in such a thing.  I actually don't, except for the air pollution aspect of it.  The planet is fine, and will 'refresh' itself, once it sheds itself of parasitic humans.  Figure man has a few generation or 5 before they self destruct.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

strongly agree with last sentence. we havent long now. too clever in inventing our own multiple endings…..yet too irrational / aggressive…… believe AI will get rid of us first…..

 

eco- friendly systems will take generations to take hold in China & India…. massive users/ polluters with fossil fuels…..all pointless without their compliance….which may never come or come far too late……

[billd766]

27 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

It does if you make it so.  Easily done, to power your home & EV with solar.

I am confused when you say it can easily be done.

 

How much would it cost to build a home solar network to power your home and your EV?

 

That would have to include the cost of the solar panels, the batteries (how long is their life?), charging unit etc, plus the costs of replacing your current ICE vehicle with an EV.

 

Then how much space would you need to build your home network? For us living in rural Thailand space is not a real problem but it could be in the city.

 

I run a little program that records  my electricity costs and they run from 3,060 thb and 23.8 units per day in January, to 5,111 thb and 39.77 units in May. If I built a system I would like it to produce about 60 units per day to allow for expansion and climate changes.

 

At normal PEA prices that would give me 60 units per day and in a 31 day month would cost me through PEA nearly 8,150 thb per month. I would need to divide the total installation and maintenance  costs by 8,000 baht to find out how many months/years it will take to break even and then to lower my costs.

 

That also needs to fund some company to build and maintain the solar field, which won't be cheap.

[billd766]

30 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Actually at same or less cost, than being on the grid & ICEs.  Thailand now has an extensive charging station network, though may be a bit lacking if most had EVs for long distance driving.  Those that do now, and shop at Central mall / Robinsons along with others get free charging while at the mall.  Lack of EV ownership numbers keeps availability open now.

 

Was at Paseo mall yesterday and 3 or 5 bays for charging, all empty, but free while shopping.  We still have an ICE / MG ZS, and if not only 1 yr old, would consider changing to an EV.  E-scooter now for my everyday, wasteful driving to park & surf.  Could easily walk or ride bicycle to both.  Keep the MG for heavy shopping and long haul out & about such as now.  Don't want a saleng / side cart on the scooter, as will take the fun out of driving it.

 

Next car will be EV, as simply makes sense, financially and environmentally, if believing in such a thing.  I actually don't, except for the air pollution aspect of it.  The planet is fine, and will 'refresh' itself, once it sheds itself of parasitic humans.  Figure man has a few generation or 5 before they self destruct.

You must live in a city as the only charging point I know of in the province is at Robinsons in Kamphaeng Phet city which is 65km away from me.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

yeah Bild that was all in response to my “at substantial capital cost” reply to the “ easy EV at home” post. appreciate the detail.

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

You must live in a city as the only charging point I know of in the province is at Robinsons in Kamphaeng Phet city which is 65km away from me.

Yea, KP is a province needing a few more ????  Although if living there, you charge up at home.  If traveling through, plan wisely, or a friendly guesthouse with your own long extension cord.????

[KhunLA]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

I am confused when you say it can easily be done.

 

How much would it cost to build a home solar network to power your home and your EV?

 

That would have to include the cost of the solar panels, the batteries (how long is their life?), charging unit etc, plus the costs of replacing your current ICE vehicle with an EV.

 

Then how much space would you need to build your home network? For us living in rural Thailand space is not a real problem but it could be in the city.

 

I run a little program that records  my electricity costs and they run from 3,060 thb and 23.8 units per day in January, to 5,111 thb and 39.77 units in May. If I built a system I would like it to produce about 60 units per day to allow for expansion and climate changes.

 

At normal PEA prices that would give me 60 units per day and in a 31 day month would cost me through PEA nearly 8,150 thb per month. I would need to divide the total installation and maintenance  costs by 8,000 baht to find out how many months/years it will take to break even and then to lower my costs.

 

That also needs to fund some company to build and maintain the solar field, which won't be cheap.

60 a day, that's a lot.  System to be installed on our house, very shortly, 7.5kws w/6kw battery (for overnight), is going to run about ฿345k.  Expecting it to provide about 25-35 units a day.  Requires 40 m² of roof for panels (17 / 455w).  I would expect PEA Bills at this house to run 3k - 5k a month, so about 5.5 - 9.5 yr ROI.  More abusive AC use, quicker ROI.

Edited October 16, 2021 by KhunLA

[Nojohndoe]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:26 PM, 2long said:

Aside from fuel required to charge these things, how are the batteries made, and what happens to the batteries when their (short) life ends? ????

Walking, or cycling consume 'clean' energy. Using mules, elephants etc is no longer acceptable.

 

Too many people on the planet, and we need to reduce or at least control the number... ????

In accordance with current concerns IMO you are not wrong .

Yes the question of the pollution involved in manufacturing, recharging where applicable, disposal of regardless of type or use indeed persists and is cumulative.

However walking barefooted  may be clean but in the majority of cases is done wearing synthetic material products. Bicycles are produced from steel and the tyres have combinations of petro chemical content. The alternative return to using animals is subject to questions of inhumane abuse so they are being reduced in natural population to the status of fascinating .

Too many people? Actually not yet because there remains enough resources to supply increased needs although the distribution is disrupted by political priorities which equates to greed and wanton waste.

Reduce or  control? Is that your cue to imminently  volunteer to depart forthwith?

The reality is that humanity will continue to do as it does until such time as it fully  poisons itself , depletes all resources, and/or nature delivers it a resounding slap down by way of contagion or a cosmic event.

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

60 a day, that's a lot.  System to be installed on our house, very shortly, 7.5kws w/6kw battery (for overnight), is going to run about ฿345k.  Expecting it to provide about 25-35 units a day.  Requires 40 m² of roof for panels (17 / 455w).  I would expect PEA Bills at this house to run 3k - 5k a month, so about 5.5 - 9.5 yr ROI.  More abusive AC use, quicker ROI.

How ever I was also including a charger for an EV in the 60 per day. The advantage of solar is that in theory I should not get any power outages.

 

I had a look for solar several years ago and then for a smaller system it came to about 400 to 450,000.

 

The future problems I am looking at is that I am 77 and my wife will be 56 this month. She is a good cook, home maker and a great Mum, but a techie or engineer she isn't. Our son will be leaving home for college or uni in a couple of years, so with him gone and me turning up my toes sometime, who will look after the system?

 

It is hard enough finding a half decent electrician or a builder/maintenance guy and out here in rural Kamphaeng Phet the chances of finding anyone qualified on solar power are worse than that of finding an honest politician.

 

[sezze]

Is it ironic , yes , but you have to look at it different .

You cannot change the electric from grid . Unless you building some kind of power plant yourself , then you are up to the government or company to change that . You can make electric at home with solar panels , providing your own use .

Electric cars , the engine is way better then a combustion engine . That is a simple fact , and nobody can't deny that . It is more reliable , more silent , smaller , "unlimited" power , ... . Batteries are a issue but they are working on it , improving year after year , and this won't stop any time soon . Soon electric cars will be the standard , and others will die of slowly .

Talking about the enviroment , a combustion car cannot be greener , electric from the grid can be green even if it isn't today .

Remember we are in a changing era . 10y ago a electric car was non existent , right now in some countries they have already taken over the market . Im sure my next car will be electric .

[tingtongfarang]

 

[impulse]

The OP photo is misleading.  Most, if not all, of what you're seeing is steam from the cooling towers.

 

Even the visible stuff coming out of the smoke stacks is mostly water vapor, H2O being a byproduct of combustion of HYDROcarbons.

 

That's not to say there's no bad invisible stuff like CO2, SOx and NOx.  But let's start from an honest argument.

Edited October 16, 2021 by impulse

[talahtnut]

Toyota will not build electric cars, they've worked out that when everyone

gets home from work and charge their cars, all the lights will go out.

 

[LarrySR]

 

Do you know what happens to a board member of a power company that proposes new coal power house construction?

The other board members call him a moron and laugh him out of the room.

Coal power costs more than renewables and its getting more expensive every year, while renewables are getting cheaper and cheaper.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by LarrySR

[LarrySR]

Yea that picture in the opening post here is nasty. Tesla being charged by Dinosaur Doo. How silly.

Below: Tesla being charged up in the driveway. The Tesla roof tiles are generating solar energy and being stored in Tesla Power Wall battery packs. Nice!

 

[Crossy]

A possibly interesting Forbes article.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/

 

 

[placeholder]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:05 AM, Rampant Rabbit said:

whats  ironic is  people throwing thousands of  dollars  on a  new  car, and teslas aint cheap, when keeping an old  car  running is more environmentally friendly

Do you think when someone trades their old car for a new one, that the old car gets junked? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/

[placeholder]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:38 PM, ChaiyaTH said:

Not to mention how it goes in Africa with mining the resources, using children and chemicals that cause new problems while we still have plenty of oil.

Good thing that petroleum extraction has been environmentally friendly in Africa..oh wait a minute...

 

Nigeria's Delta attempts cleanup after decades of oil spills, gas flaring

https://www.africanews.com/2021/10/20/nigeria-s-delta-attempts-cleanup-after-decades-of-oil-spills-gas-flaring//

 

South Sudan ignores reports on oil pollution, birth defects

https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-south-sudan-ap-top-news-international-news-health-f2f06cfa70126ad179445720d7c60b8a

 

 

[placeholder]

On 10/17/2021 at 5:11 AM, talahtnut said:

Toyota will not build electric cars, they've worked out that when everyone

gets home from work and charge their cars, all the lights will go out.

 

You sure about that?

Toyota announces the bZ4X: the carmaker’s first mass-produced electric vehicle

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/02/toyota-announces-the-bz4x-the-carmakers-first-mass-produced-electric-vehicle

[sezze]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

Do you think when someone trades their old car for a new one, that the old car gets junked? 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/

Yes old cars do stay around for a while . How many cars of lets say 30y old do you see driving daily ? In some countries cars of 10/12 y are old , and replaced, and let's say they will be replaced by electric . The old car goes to let's say Africa , and will drive there for years to come . But will it drive there for 5y , 10y , 20y but sooner or later , it will be out of use . There aren't many Ford T on the road , not in Africa , not anywhere . So phasing it out , means , it will go away .

[billd766]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:08 PM, sezze said:

Is it ironic , yes , but you have to look at it different .

You cannot change the electric from grid . Unless you building some kind of power plant yourself , then you are up to the government or company to change that . You can make electric at home with solar panels , providing your own use .

Electric cars , the engine is way better then a combustion engine . That is a simple fact , and nobody can't deny that . It is more reliable , more silent , smaller , "unlimited" power , ... . Batteries are a issue but they are working on it , improving year after year , and this won't stop any time soon . Soon electric cars will be the standard , and others will die of slowly .

Talking about the enviroment , a combustion car cannot be greener , electric from the grid can be green even if it isn't today .

Remember we are in a changing era . 10y ago a electric car was non existent , right now in some countries they have already taken over the market . Im sure my next car will be electric .

60 and more years ago there were electric milk floats all over the UK. Granted that they were powered by the old lead-acid batteries, but they worked and the batteries were recyclable. There have been electric golf carts around for many years so what is happening nowadays is simply progress.

 

The biggest problem with electric  cars nowadays is the range and the recharge time. The more electric vehicles produced, the more electricity has to be produced from somewhere to recharge them.

 

Quite bluntly Thailand is certainly not ready to handle very many electric vehicles at this time, as the existing power network is not capable of transmitting enough power to handle it.

 

Have you considered how many commercial vehicles have been tested, built and working on the roads yet? Have you thought about how agriculture vehicles will be replaced and by what? How many tractors, rice harvesters, sugar harvesters etc will need to be replaced, and who will have the money to buy them? The majority of farmers are up to their ears in debt already.

 

Whilst electric vehicles are now in production the infrastructure has not been upgraded to cope with them, and who will pay the cost of that?

 

They are coming at the right time progression but at the wrong time financially as most governments are also up to their ears in debt due to Covid.

[sezze]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

60 and more years ago there were electric milk floats all over the UK. Granted that they were powered by the old lead-acid batteries, but they worked and the batteries were recyclable. There have been electric golf carts around for many years so what is happening nowadays is simply progress.

 

The biggest problem with electric  cars nowadays is the range and the recharge time. The more electric vehicles produced, the more electricity has to be produced from somewhere to recharge them.

 

Quite bluntly Thailand is certainly not ready to handle very many electric vehicles at this time, as the existing power network is not capable of transmitting enough power to handle it.

 

Have you considered how many commercial vehicles have been tested, built and working on the roads yet? Have you thought about how agriculture vehicles will be replaced and by what? How many tractors, rice harvesters, sugar harvesters etc will need to be replaced, and who will have the money to buy them? The majority of farmers are up to their ears in debt already.

 

Whilst electric vehicles are now in production the infrastructure has not been upgraded to cope with them, and who will pay the cost of that?

 

They are coming at the right time progression but at the wrong time financially as most governments are also up to their ears in debt due to Covid.

Commercial vehicles , there are certainly a few around , bus and vans are used already . The heavy equipment , you are right , and it will be a while before they come. Thailand indeed is far from being ready . But not having it now , doesn't mean it won't be in 10-15y .

Range and recharge time :

Range is no problem , most people drive less then 100km per day . Many electric cars now got 400km range ( and more but 400 is pretty standard ) . Recharge time , well it is different then your petrol engine . You do not drive to the petrol station once your car is empty and then drive out again for the next 400km . It can be done , and then the recharge time is important , but it is not the best use in several ways . It is bad for the battery . Normally you come home and plug in a normal rate charger , meaning , it does take a few hours , but if you are driving 100km a day , it is nice and full again without problem for next day .

Idk where you live , maybe in Thailand , but looking outside on the road here ( Europe) , i see electric bicycles a lot , cruising along . I see electric steps , cruising along . Yes , it isn't the same like it used to be , requires some changes , but many changes are easily done .

https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/

And this can be done easy in Thailand also , and it can go superfast . The amount of motorbike's around is huge , charging /switching stations can be build fast .

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, sezze said:

Commercial vehicles , there are certainly a few around , bus and vans are used already . The heavy equipment , you are right , and it will be a while before they come. Thailand indeed is far from being ready . But not having it now , doesn't mean it won't be in 10-15y .

Range and recharge time :

Range is no problem , most people drive less then 100km per day . Many electric cars now got 400km range ( and more but 400 is pretty standard ) . Recharge time , well it is different then your petrol engine . You do not drive to the petrol station once your car is empty and then drive out again for the next 400km . It can be done , and then the recharge time is important , but it is not the best use in several ways . It is bad for the battery . Normally you come home and plug in a normal rate charger , meaning , it does take a few hours , but if you are driving 100km a day , it is nice and full again without problem for next day .

Idk where you live , maybe in Thailand , but looking outside on the road here ( Europe) , i see electric bicycles a lot , cruising along . I see electric steps , cruising along . Yes , it isn't the same like it used to be , requires some changes , but many changes are easily done .

https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/

And this can be done easy in Thailand also , and it can go superfast . The amount of motorbike's around is huge , charging /switching stations can be build fast .

Also, these kind of criticisms about stress on the power grid assume that there will be a tsunami of EV's being purchased by Thais that will overwhelm the system. There's a huge base of ICE vehicles in Thailand. The percentages will gradually shift.

Also, just because EVs take a long time to charge now doesn't mean that will continue to be the case. I believe the new Hyundai EV gets to about 80% of its charge in 12 minutes. And solid state batteries will charge a lot faster.