Phuket immigration very strict on retirement extension requirements

[connda]

Phuket immigration very strict on retirement extension requirements

They are not being 'strict.'  The IO is ignoring the Police Order as it is written.  The actual question is:  "Why?"

The answer is probably obvious.

[Hamus Yaigh]

23 hours ago, xylophone said:

That's what I couldn't understand because he did have 900k in his account for over a year and he never touches it, in fact he doesn't need to.

Well that's not true is it? He has to make a small deposit or withdraw on the day of the bank letter and update the passbook on the day of extension to shown current balance is still valid.

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, Doctor Tom said:

No, but I get somewhat frustrated with posters moaning about their difficulties with immigration, visas and extensions,  when the solution to their frustration is sitting right in front of them,  I shouldn't really bother typing an answer, as I don't really care about other peoples problems with the Thailand Authorities.  

Ergo why if you play by the rules as I have indicated you should never have a problem. Operative word is should not.  I have only met one person who ran afoul of the I/O in my time here and that was because he failed to bring his prior bank book with him that he had changed accounts from.  Even his letter he provided explained this was a new account opened up three months prior and his old account had been transferred to that new account.  You need to carry all with you unfortunately and if they ask for something you provide it, like the requested TM-30 this year I was asked to provide.  No issues if you stay above board. If your unsure you meet the requirements or having any thing that looks dodgy sure you may have issues, and themn as you say pay the agent.....due diligence is something that's needed.

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Ergo why if you play by the rules as I have indicated you should never have a problem. Operative word is should not.  I have only met one person who ran afoul of the I/O in my time here and that was because he failed to bring his prior bank book with him that he had changed accounts from.  Even his letter he provided explained this was a new account opened up three months prior and his old account had been transferred to that new account.  You need to carry all with you unfortunately and if they ask for something you provide it, like the requested TM-30 this year I was asked to provide.  No issues if you stay above board. If your unsure you meet the requirements or having any thing that looks dodgy sure you may have issues, and themn as you say pay the agent.....due diligence is something that's needed.

This forum is littered with people who have had problems with immigration when they have followed the 'rules'. ? 

[worrab]

On 10/16/2021 at 7:22 AM, skatewash said:

Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this. 

Absolutely correct as I use Bangkok Bank. But the 12 month statement will not bring you up to date because, as you say, takes a week to get it. Therefore you will not have a statement that will be acceptable. So, as I do, you then get a 6 month statement which can be done immediately which will bring you up to date.

So a 12 month statement and a 6 month statement is required as well as the account verification letter.   

[ericthai]

On 10/16/2021 at 2:22 AM, skatewash said:

The requirements for getting a retirement extension of stay at Phuket Immigration are very strictly enforced.  So I make my life easier by finding out what the requirements are and following them strictly.  I find it very helpful to use the website set up by the Phuket Immigration Volunteers that contains very good information about what is required in order to get all sorts of extensions of stay including the retirement extension.

http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/

 

For years Phuket Immigration has required two (2) documents from your Thai bank.  One is the standard letter that shows you are the owner of a bank account, details of the account, and the balance on the date the letter is written.  The second is a signed/stamped bank account statement for twelve (12) months.  I forget how much these two documents cost but is in the range of 200-300 baht depending on the Thai bank involved.  Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this.  So knowing this I try to apply for my retirement extension 45 days before my permission to stay expires.  Why wouldn't you want to do this earlier rather than later?  You have time on your side if there are any problems.

These are the requirements (as can be confirmed by reading the earlier link).  However, I usually try to understand the reason these are the requirements.  So what follows is my understanding of why we are asked to do what we are asked to do when proving that we have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 12 months. 

The standard bank letter establishes that the bank account exists, is in our name only, and that we are the owner of it.  The 12-month bank statement establishes that we have complied with the minimum balance requirements.  The minimum balance requirement for a banked lump sum method are as follows:

• At least 800k in the bank account for two (2) months prior to application for extension
• At least 800k in the bank account for three (3) months after application for extension
• At least 400k in the bank account for the rest of the year.

So, the 12-month bank statement is the means by which an immigration officer can determine if you followed these requirements.  But why is a bank signed/stamped bank statement required rather than just copies of pages in your bank account passbook?  I mean, aren't they the same?  Actually they are only the same if you have updated your bank passbook on a regular basis.  If you haven't then it is possible to get Combined Transactions in your passbook.  Combined transactions include numerous transactions that occurred without your passbook being updated.  The Combined transaction entry shows the net effect of all those undocumented transactions on your bank balance.  It is impossible to determine from this entry whether your bank balance dipped below the minimum balance requirements.  That is why they insist on a 12-month bank statement. 

Even then, they often want to see your bank passbook.  Sometimes, often actually, they will want to see signed copies of your passbook covering the last 12 months.  Why is this?  When you are trying to assess the validity of evidence you look at multiple sources for that evidence.  The standard bank letter says the balance on the date the letter was issued was such and such.  Does the bank statement say the same thing?  Does the bank passbook say the same thing?  The bank statement says that the balance never dipped below the minimum balances.  Does the bank book confirm that? 

I look at this process as getting the immigration officer to a place where he or she has a warm and fuzzy feeling that the evidence you present is valid.  Could it all be faked?  Of course.  There is nothing that can't be faked (including passports and true love).  But how difficult, how much work is it, to fake three separate things:  signed/stamped bank letter, signed/stamped bank statement, bank passbook? 

So, what happened to your friend?  I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site.  I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years).  I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved.

You do NOT have to bring money into Thailand according to the rules for the monthly deposit method (65,000 baht/month every month), IF you are doing the lump-sum banked money method (800,000 baht in the account, subject to minimum balance requirements).  He would have known that if he had familiarized himself with the requirements.  Did he get a garbled, confusing, explanation from the immigration officers as to why he was being refused an extension?  Probably.  That's why your understanding of the process needs to be as good as an immigration officer, so you can comprehend what in the world they are trying to tell you.  So you can understand what the issues are, what their concerns are.

Also, it needs to be said that immigration officers can ask you any question they want to inform their assessment of whether you are going to get a retirement extension or not.  For example if your bank balances meet all the minimum balance requirements it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on?  Where does it come from?  Do you work in Thailand?  Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on.  For example, my account for immigration purpose shows very little activity.  The money just sits there, earning interest every month.  I rarely put money in, I rarely take money out.  If that's all I show to the immigration officer it could raise the question about what I am living on.  For that, I have another account that shows money being transferred in on an irregular basis with international labeling.  Money being withdrawn on an irregular basis to pay my day to day expenses.  Money being debited by my internet provider, electricity provider, etc.  I usually will make copies of that bank passbook in case they want to see that.

To paraphrase Jerry McGuire, you need to help the immigration officers help you.  It's in your interest.  The easier their job is the easier it is for me to get what I want, a retirement extension.

Or you can pay 22,000 baht to an agent and they can do what you couldn't do.  The agent likes this and the immigration officers like this as they get part of that 22,000 baht.  It's a win-win situation.  Except I wouldn't be happy paying 22,000 for something that I know should cost exactly 1,900.  But it's Thailand, so up to you. ????

thanks for the book, but seems you dont understand Thailand govt just yet. 

The OP's  friend followed the rules and should've been approved. It was the IO looking for money that caused the problems. 

Just like many Thai govt offices it's always hit or miss if you have issues! 

[Used2LuvThailand]

Another daily, silly example of what it's like to be the frog in the pot of water on that stove and not realize it.  Just go to basically any other country on the planet to retire.  There may be higher initial requirements, but once you jump through those hoops, they leave you alone.  In addition to losing all of their tourists, this is the next comeuppance the Thai authorities need....all of the foreigners living and spending money there to just give them a well-deserved middle finger on their way out the door to anywhere. 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

"the chief officer at an immigration office has the discretion to approve a retirement extension irrespective of the financial situation of the applicant".

 

THERE IT IS RIGHT THERE. Financials Not In Fact Required. IF you use an Agent. System Designed for Profit, i.e AGENT USE……If you dont, stand by for RETRIBUTION, i.e.Humiliation When Passing Through Obstacle Course of BS RULES.

“And that's why we should all use an agent. EXACTLY. Don't try to buck the system, or pretend that you understand it, you don't. YES ! Use someone who knows how it works and works within it. “ PROFIT !

Never Complied with Financials.Always Objected to Financials in Principle. Agent Always.

Been in a tiny minority explaining this for months now. Shouted down by the Righteous -Its- Illegal Crowd. No, its Not ……and this Proves It…..Immi Passport Stamp on Immi Computer is ALWAYS Legal.

[Chris.B]

5 hours ago, madmitch said:

Despite never having had a problem myself with my retirement extension, last year the skinny bespectacled IO asked me to help explain to the 90 year old Italian why he had just had his renewal declined. He'd gone below the 400,000 baht balance for a few days, despite subsequently having brought in nearly 2m baht. He was very confused and quite upset.

 

He'd have had no option other than to use an agent,

 

Despite being sure all my documentation is in order, apart from the standard missing photocopy, there's always that niggling thought that something's not going to be right.

 

Don't have to worry this year. Swapped it for cold weather and large council tax bills! Not sure if it was worth the trade!

Very cruel. ????

[JetsetBkk]

25 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

 

“And that's why we should all use an agent. EXACTLY. Don't try to buck the system, or pretend that you understand it, you don't. YES ! Use someone who knows how it works and works within it. “ PROFIT !

Never Complied with Financials.Always Objected to Financials in Principle. Agent Always.

Been in a tiny minority explaining this for months now. Shouted down by the Righteous -Its- Illegal Crowd. No, its Not ……and this Proves It…..Immi Passport Stamp on Immi Computer is ALWAYS Legal.

If I had done it "your way", I'd be 400,000 baht out of pocket by now.

Edited October 17, 2021 by JetsetBkk
Remove quoted text.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

“I've saved myself 198,000 baht (22,000 baht x 9 years)”

 

No , you haven’t. Because that saving has been completely Offset, and then some, against the lost use of an average annual say GBP 15k x 9 years Dead Capital, stuck at Near Zero Interest in a Thai Bank, in a rising worldwide stock market, which should have Doubled that GBP 15k. So your GBP 5k Saving is Offset by GBP 15k Lost Capital Gain.Thats the Primary reason for Agent Use. Secondary Reason is Zero Tolerance & Time for Financials/ Related BS / Humiliation.Third Reason is Principle: Only We Should Control Our Money.

[Don Dunkelblum]

I do not believe one thing of this story.

Pure trolling.

[JetsetBkk]

12 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

“I've saved myself 198,000 baht (22,000 baht x 9 years)”

 

No , you haven’t. Because that saving has been completely Offset, and then some, against the lost use of an average annual say GBP 15k x 9 years Dead Capital, stuck at Near Zero Interest in a Thai Bank, in a rising worldwide stock market, which should have Doubled that GBP 15k. So your GBP 5k Saving is Offset by GBP 15k Lost Capital Gain.Thats the Primary reason for Agent Use. Secondary Reason is Zero Tolerance & Time for Financials/ Related BS / Humiliation.Third Reason is Principle: Only We Should Control Our Money.

Actually, WhiteBuffaloATM is Pretty Much Correct with What He is Saying, but I Don't Like The Way He Says It.  ????

 

So, if you put the 800,000 in a bank 18 years ago it would now be worth about 50% more. So if you put it in a zero interest account, you'd have lost 400,000 over 18 years which is equivaled to (drum-roll...) 22,000 baht per year.

 

Does that number ring a bell?  ????

[The Hammer2021]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:24 PM, worgeordie said:

Maybe that is the reason why.....I am sure the agent does not get

to keep the 22 K Baht all to himself.

regards Worgeordie

They get about 10 - 20 %. I gave my 20k to my agent at the office. He gave it direct over the counter to the officer. All above board lol

[The Hammer2021]

2 hours ago, ericthai said:

thanks for the book, but seems you dont understand Thailand govt just yet. 

The OP's  friend followed the rules and should've been approved. It was the IO looking for money that caused the problems. 

Just like many Thai govt offices it's always hit or miss if you have issues! 

It was the OP not following the etiquette by not using an agent that caused the issue.

[The Hammer2021]

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

 

"the chief officer at an immigration office has the discretion to approve a retirement extension irrespective of the financial situation of the applicant".

 

THERE IT IS RIGHT THERE. Financials Not In Fact Required. IF you use an Agent. System Designed for Profit, i.e AGENT USE……If you dont, stand by for RETRIBUTION, i.e.Humiliation When Passing Through Obstacle Course of BS RULES.

“And that's why we should all use an agent. EXACTLY. Don't try to buck the system, or pretend that you understand it, you don't. YES ! Use someone who knows how it works and works within it. “ PROFIT !

Never Complied with Financials.Always Objected to Financials in Principle. Agent Always.

Been in a tiny minority explaining this for months now. Shouted down by the Righteous -Its- Illegal Crowd. No, its Not ……and this Proves It…..Immi Passport Stamp on Immi Computer is ALWAYS Legal.

Excellent explanation of what I too have been saying for years. I have more than sufficient funds coming here but not always at the right time..Anyway using an agent is good etiquette.

[JetsetBkk]

25 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

good etiquette

Interesting way of describing corruption. ????

 

[skatewash]

3 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Actually, WhiteBuffaloATM is Pretty Much Correct with What He is Saying, but I Don't Like The Way He Says It.  ????

 

So, if you put the 800,000 in a bank 18 years ago it would now be worth about 50% more. So if you put it in a zero interest account, you'd have lost 400,000 over 18 years which is equivaled to (drum-roll...) 22,000 baht per year.

 

Does that number ring a bell?  ????

Well, let's see:

I earn 1% APR on my Retirement Extension Bank Account, so with a starting principle of 800,000 I would have after 9 years of accumulating interest a balance of 874,948 baht.

If I could earn 4% APR on another bank account, with a starting principle of 800,000 I would have after 9 years of paying the agent's yearly fee of 22,000 and accumulating interest a balance of 874,515 baht, which is 433 baht worse off than my Retirement Extension Bank Account.  So I would need to be earning a higher than 4% APR on another bank account in order not to lose money paying the agent.  Which bank account do you suggest I use that is paying better than 4% APR?

 

 

agent fee.xlsx

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by skatewash

[KarenBravo]

4 hours ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

“I've saved myself 198,000 baht (22,000 baht x 9 years)”

 

No , you haven’t. Because that saving has been completely Offset, and then some, against the lost use of an average annual say GBP 15k x 9 years Dead Capital, stuck at Near Zero Interest in a Thai Bank, in a rising worldwide stock market, which should have Doubled that GBP 15k. So your GBP 5k Saving is Offset by GBP 15k Lost Capital Gain.Thats the Primary reason for Agent Use. Secondary Reason is Zero Tolerance & Time for Financials/ Related BS / Humiliation.Third Reason is Principle: Only We Should Control Our Money.

 

It's so much simpler. Which is better? Keeping your money with no interest paid and paying 1900Bt per year, or giving away permanently 20,000 Bt per year.

Seems obvious to me.

As the stock market goes up and down there are no guarantees. Including future profit from the stock market into calculations is a mugs game. Also, you leave yourself open to FX rates every year. If you already have 800k Baht in the bank, no further exchange rate risk.

Anyway, you continue doing it your way if it makes you happy.

As for the poster that recommends everyone should use agents, I find that recommendation rather silly.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

its “ obvious” if the obvious cost and principle of tying up that 400-800 k every year, plus the explained & known work / humiliation / changes/ uncertainty involved, is ignored. that’s silly.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

bkkjet: my explanation was of course basic “ big picture”. your detail is well thought out but omits the annual 1900 baht and is exclusively bank interest based but thats fine as gives the cost model certainty.like other Direct Immi Fans, the non- financial bs/ humiliation/ principle / changes are not considered. not just about the money.

[KarenBravo]

I've never experienced any of those things described about immigration.

In fact, they have introduced measures to make expat's visit to immigration much better.

Like a dedicated room for Non-Imm O extensions. Before, you were mixed in with every one else, so it took hours. Now it takes 15 to 20 minutes.

Introduced the drive through for 90 day reports. This can also take 5 minutes and frees up time as these people now don't clog up the main room that all the tourists have to go to.

 

I'm fully aware that immigration offices around the country will give a different experience, but as far as things go, Phuket immigration is one of the best. Never had a problem and have always been treated well by the I/O's.

Have no idea why different people have different experiences at the same place.

[skatewash]

42 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

I've never experienced any of those things described about immigration.

In fact, they have introduced measures to make expat's visit to immigration much better.

 

Of course you've never experienced any of those things.  That's because you go to Room 103 to get your retirement extension.  

But If you had gone in the back of the building, entered the door labeled "abandon hope all ye who enter here" and descended into the dungeon under the "regular" immigration office you would have had a much different experience.  That's where you would have experienced the ritual humiliation and all the other bad things.  One only has to witness the degradation and listen to the wails of the condemned one time and you'll be using an agent the rest of your time in Thailand.

[HappyGoLuckyLife]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:56 AM, skatewash said:

If you use an account with very little activity over the year, then expect to get asked how you are living in Thailand.  This question is easily answered by showing the passbook for an account that you use for your day-to-day living expenses. 

Would a joint account be okay in this scenario? While I would have the Visa bank account, day-to-day expenses would be held in a joint account with my wife.

[skatewash]

3 minutes ago, HappyGoLuckyLife said:

Would a joint account be okay in this scenario? While I would have the Visa bank account, day-to-day expenses would be held in a joint account with my wife.

Only the account you are using to meet the extension of stay requirement needs to be solely in your name.  Any other account you have doesn't have to meet that restriction.  A joint account would be fine for that purpose.  It's not even guaranteed that they will ask about any other accounts.  It's just better to be prepared if they do.  I take all sorts of documents with me to immigration, nearly all the time they remain in my bag unused.  

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

bkkjet: my explanation was of course basic “ big picture”. your detail is well thought out but omits the annual 1900 baht and is exclusively bank interest based but thats fine as gives the cost model certainty.like other Direct Immi Fans, the non- financial bs/ humiliation/ principle / changes are not considered. not just about the money.

OK, I've reduced your 22,000 bath agent fee by 1,900 baht to account for the retirement extension application fee.

After that change the agent method loses money every year unless you can find a bank account that is paying APR over 3.74%.  Please let me know when you find a bank account paying that kind of interest.  Of course it's exclusively bank interest based because when I invest in something that experiences market fluctuation with zero guarantee of principle preservation I'm going to want to earn a lot more interest than in a bank account.  To look at other investments would be an apples and oranges type comparison.  

Nearly all of my money is invested at a substantially higher rate of return (9.5% over the last 9 years).  The account maintained for my retirement extension represents a part of my cash reserve because for 7 months of the year 400,000 of it is available for withdrawal.  The 1% APR I get with my Krungsri Bank Mee Tae Dai savings account is substantially more interest than I would be able to get in a US savings account.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by skatewash

[StevieAus]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:17 PM, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

no point in agent unless you are avoiding the financials……

That might be your view, I have used my lawyer to process my retirement extension for the past ten years and I am not avoiding anything

Renewed mine today took about five minutes, everything was ready Had the photos taken and left.

Its the difference between flying economy and business class which I also do.

[KarenBravo]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

Of course you've never experienced any of those things.  That's because you go to Room 103 to get your retirement extension.  

But If you had gone in the back of the building, entered the door labeled "abandon hope all ye who enter here" and descended into the dungeon under the "regular" immigration office you would have had a much different experience.  That's where you would have experienced the ritual humiliation and all the other bad things.  One only has to witness the degradation and listen to the wails of the condemned one time and you'll be using an agent the rest of your time in Thailand.

Not really. I go to the big room 101 for my re-entry permit. Also, before I went the retirement route, I regularly had to go to room 101. Never problems, just the time it took to do anything.

[brianthainess]

What does strict mean even ? jeez Trat wants 4 photos for retirement extension and do home visit. as said they want to see what you are living on.   

[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

What does strict mean even ? jeez Trat wants 4 photos for retirement extension and do home visit. as said they want to see what you are living on.   

It depends what you're used to I suppose.  After dealing with the Internal Revenue Service my entire life, dealing with Thai Immigration seems to me like a walk in the park. ????