Will this pandemic ever end as the infections in the UK surge again.

[Oblomov]

2 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Of course the Golden Arches of cardiac ill health. No wonder McDonald Houses had to be built. 

Sad isn't it ? - Life's tough enough for most without hobbling ourselves by bad diet and lack of exercise. 

[Jeffr2]

7 hours ago, peter zwart said:

Personally, I think the only option is to reopen society and try to deal with the consequences. It has now been shown that vaccines etc. do not work sufficiently to eliminate this virus. And continuing like this for years will cause more damage. It's a choice between two evils.

Vaccines work. Don't post misinformation.

[Scott]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So what. It hasn't been used in a human vaccine before, which is why all the controversy is happening.

Also, IMO all the coersion by government is only producing a backlash. Apparently they don't employ any psychologists to inform them that honey works better than the stick.

That is not true.  mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV).  I believe there was an early study of mRNA vaccine with HIV and there is a new HIV vaccine which is planned for trials. 

The earlier trials on other vaccines were not particularly successful on those diseases, but the technology behind them found them safe to use.   None of those vaccines were ever submitted to the FDA for approval.  

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=What+vaccines+have+been+tried+with+mRNA+technolog%3F

 

 

[Scott]

5 hours ago, sezze said:

Come on , in many countries life is pretty much normal , besides a few things . The few things being having to show a certificate , limited amount of people together and masks .

It is very different then 1.5y ago , when i was driving home from work ( mind you , i work in chem company , my work can't be done from home ) and i was literally alone on the road .

It is not evil like it is now , in most places , thx to the vaccinations . Vaccinate yourself , preferably with mRNA technology ( new insights already are that the protection is working better for longer period of time then other technologies around) and this way , it will be faster on it's way to normal .

In the US, life is pretty much normal.  It's a good idea to keep a mask handy since a few places do demand it where I live.  I traveled to the northern states of Idaho, Montana nd Wyoming to visit family.  This was at the end of October and hospitals in Idaho and Montana were full of Covid and Idaho had instituted drastic measures and limiting care.  
 

I was fully vaxxed and had my booster, but I took the opportunity to talk about Covid to everyone (including family).  I heard a lot of vaccine hesitancy, but almost no anti-vax rhetoric.  I also met a lot of people who were surprisingly vaccinated but pretty sure the whole Covid thing was over stated.  

 

Masks are almost always a political statement in those areas.  Where I went people were pretty uniformly anti-mask.  The most common reason was that it is the gov't trying to control us.  I saw very few people who wore masks and store clerks and workers were unmasked (except for the larger chain stores where I suspect it is a company mandate). 

I think it's important to note that even those unvaccinated and unmasked people were among some of the nicest, kindest, easy to talk to people you'll find anywhere.  They were helpful to a fault and I even had a really outspoken pretty much anti-everything get in his vehicle to lead me to the road that was a real-time saver. 

So the general tenor was 'I'm never wearing one of the Gosh-darned masks' and "I am not to sure about those vaccines.'

[Danderman123]

11 hours ago, peter zwart said:

Personally, I think the only option is to reopen society and try to deal with the consequences. It has now been shown that vaccines etc. do not work sufficiently to eliminate this virus. And continuing like this for years will cause more damage. It's a choice between two evils.

As more people get the jab, the virus diminishes. 

 

When enough people are immune, the R0 number drops below 1, and the epidemic goes away. Maybe not to 0, but the virus can be ignored by the vaccinated at that point. 

 

The unvaccinated will still be dying, but that would be mainly by choice. 

[sezze]

7 hours ago, Scott said:

 

Masks are almost always a political statement in those areas.  Where I went people were pretty uniformly anti-mask.  The most common reason was that it is the gov't trying to control us. 

Hmm , euhm yes and ? The government , in whatever country your in always controls you . And it isn't alone the government it is companies also . Not only that , it is in fact even the other countries government who controls you .

We live by rules , because we life in a society and it requires certain rules . At work you got a employer and he tells you what needs to be done and you get paid . He sets the rules for you . In any country or even international waters there are certain rules to be followed . I am pretty sure most , besides some psychopaths , say we cannot harm or kill other people . That is where vaccination and masks come in , is that so bad ?

The masks aren't fun at all time , i do agree , but i do not like many other things also , but you do it to protect yourself and your neighbors , parents ,friends , or just other people . 

[Scott]

59 minutes ago, sezze said:

Hmm , euhm yes and ? The government , in whatever country your in always controls you . And it isn't alone the government it is companies also . Not only that , it is in fact even the other countries government who controls you .

We live by rules , because we life in a society and it requires certain rules . At work you got a employer and he tells you what needs to be done and you get paid . He sets the rules for you . In any country or even international waters there are certain rules to be followed . I am pretty sure most , besides some psychopaths , say we cannot harm or kill other people . That is where vaccination and masks come in , is that so bad ?

The masks aren't fun at all time , i do agree , but i do not like many other things also , but you do it to protect yourself and your neighbors , parents ,friends , or just other people . 

Well, I'd say you nailed it, but like I said they were some of the nicest people.  I never said they were the brightest people!

 

[mommysboy]

15 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Vaccines work. Don't post misinformation.

He wrote:  do not work sufficiently to eliminate this virus.

 

 

I think that is solid fact. 

 

They do work sufficiently to prevent serious illness and death in nearly everyone however..

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

He wrote:  do not work sufficiently to eliminate this virus.

 

 

I think that is solid fact. 

 

They do work sufficiently to prevent serious illness and death in nearly everyone however..

That is not a solid fact.  It's misinformation.  Does it eliminate the virus completely?  No.  Does it work to help eliminate the virus?  100% absolutely.  He's a known covid denier.

[RJRS1301]

44 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

That is not a solid fact.  It's misinformation.  Does it eliminate the virus completely?  No.  Does it work to help eliminate the virus?  100% absolutely.  He's a known covid denier.

Sorry, but no degrees of eliminate 

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

Learn to pronounce

Filter definitions by topic

 

 

1. 1.

   completely remove or get rid of (something).

    

   However current vaccines, assists in slowing transmission and also severity of infection.

    

    

    

Edited November 10, 2021 by RJRS1301

[ozimoron]

22 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

Sorry, but no degrees of eliminate 

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

Learn to pronounce

Filter definitions by topic

 

 

1. 1.

   completely remove or get rid of (something).

    

   However current vaccines, assists in slowing transmission and also severity of infection.

    

    

    

If something mostly works, it works. If it doesn't work a tiny fraction of the time it's disingenuous to claim it doesn't work and everything else is weasel words. The FACTS are that vaccines do a LOT to reduce infection and transmission and human suffering will be greatly prolonged by those who seek to cast doubt about the vaccine efficacy.

Edited November 11, 2021 by onthedarkside
flame comment removed

[mommysboy]

It is a fact that covid vaccines at present do not prevent infection or transmission (it's about 50%) and it is clear even in countries with a high vaccine rate like the UK that they can not eliminate the virus.  This is so clear that really it needs no substantiation, surely?  Nothing I've said is at all left field.

 

'Eliminate' is very much an absolute term.

 

"Sufficient' implies being enough.

 

Are they useful? Yes of course- life savers in fact.

Have I had one? Yes, it's a no brainer.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden post removed

[ozimoron]

16 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

It is a fact that covid vaccines at present do not prevent infection or transmission (it's about 50%) and it is clear even in countries with a high vaccine rate like the UK that they can not eliminate the virus.  This is so clear that really it needs no substantiation, surely?  Nothing I've said is at all left field.

 

'Eliminate' is very much an absolute term.

 

"Sufficient' implies being enough.

 

Are they useful? Yes of course- life savers in fact.

Have I had one? Yes, it's a no brainer.

 

 

still no facts or reference so I'll use my prerogative to call BS on your numbers.

[mommysboy]

16 hours ago, ozimoron said:

still no facts or reference so I'll use my prerogative to call BS on your numbers.

It is common knowledge and the general received wisdom that these vaccines do not eliminate the virus- that is the opinion of mainstream science the world over.  Elimination is very much an absolute.  This is primarily because they are 'neutralising' vaccines and not 'sterilising',

 

Do some basic research...

 

If you wish to counteract an antivaxxer, it does no good to spread misinformation in the opposite:

 

Why not just admit you are wrong and say something like this: 'As well as being very effective at preventing hospitalization and death, vaccines offer some protection against symptomatic infection and onward transmission.'

[placeholder]

48 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It is common knowledge and the general received wisdom that these vaccines do not eliminate the virus- that is the opinion of mainstream science the world over.  Elimination is very much an absolute.  This is primarily because they are 'neutralising' vaccines and not 'sterilising',

 

Do some basic research and stop acting the like this. 

 

If you wish to counteract an antivaxxer, it does no good to spread misinformation in the opposite:

 

Why not just admit you are wrong and say something like this: 'As well as being very effective at preventing hospitalization and death, vaccines offer some protection against symptomatic infection and onward transmission.'

You're absolutely right about this virus and current vaccines. But when it comes to "immunizing" vs. "sterilizing" it's a bit more complicated.

It's true that in the past there was absolutely reckoned to be 2 kinds of vaccines: ones that allowed some infection but then had primed the body's immune system to fight beck. These were immunizing vaccines. The other kind prevented infection altogether. These are called sterilizing vaccines. But as science progress and detection techniques get better, it seems that there may be no such thing as a sterilizing vaccine. Still, the smallpox vaccine, which is not sterilizing, did eliminate smallpox as a disease. The polio vaccine has done so in nations where inoculation is virtually universal. So, if a vaccine primes the immune system enough, that may be all that's necessary to eliminate a disease.

Here's a link to an interesting overview about the concept of sterilizing immunity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/

 

 

[RJRS1301]

8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

If something mostly works, it works. If it doesn't work a tiny fraction of the time it's disingenuous to claim it doesn't work and everything else is weasel words. The FACTS are that vaccines do a LOT to reduce infection and transmission and human suffering will be greatly prolonged by those who seek to cast doubt about the vaccine efficacy. Hiding behind absolutes is pathetic and reprehensible..

You obviously mistake what I was responding to. There is no degree of elimination as claimed by a poster to whom I was responding. 

Vaccines reduce transmission, and hospitals  admissions also serious covid infections.

They do not eliminate as claimed by poster who stated "Does it work to help eliminate the virus?  100%" 

 

 

Definition of eliminate verb from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

eliminate

 verb

 OPAL W

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

Verb Forms

1.  
   to remove or get rid of something

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by RJRS1301

[Jeffr2]

16 hours ago, mommysboy said:

You are splitting hairs imo.

 

It is a fact that covid vaccines at present do not prevent infection or transmission (it's about 50%) and it is clear even in countries with a high vaccine rate like the UK that they can not eliminate the virus.  This is so clear that really it needs no substantiation, surely?  Nothing I've said is at all left field.

 

'Eliminate' is very much an absolute term.

 

"Sufficient' implies being enough.

 

Are they useful? Yes of course- life savers in fact.

Have I had one? Yes, it's a no brainer.

 

 

You'll have to put up a link proving this.  Otherwise, more misinformation.

[Scott]

Baiting/bickering posts removed.  Continue and face a suspension.

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

You obviously mistake what I was responding to. There is no degree of elimination as claimed by a poster to whom I was responding. 

Vaccines reduce transmission, and hospitals  admissions also serious covid infections.

They do not eliminate as claimed by poster who stated "Does it work to help eliminate the virus?  100%" 

 

 

Definition of eliminate verb from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

eliminate

 verb

 OPAL W

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

 

/ɪˈlɪmɪneɪt/

Verb Forms

1.  
   to remove or get rid of something

 

There's just a tiny problem with your generalization. It's called smallpox. Thanks to vaccinations, smallpox has been eliminated. It's now extinct.

 

[Scott]

Vaccinations are about the only way to slow the spread of the virus to the point where the pandemic will end.  Covid may not be gone, but it won't be at pandemic levels.   Without very high vaccination rates, the virus will continue to circulate at unacceptable levels, taxing medical facilities, causing closure of businesses -- they can't operate if staff is out sick or having to isolate.  

 

I suspect that vaccinating children will go a very long way to slowing the spread.  

 

 

[blackprince]

The pandemic will decline to endemic status and then decline further. But it will take time.

 

The great thing is that during that time we will discover a lot more about new and more effective types of vaccine for this type of virus and perhaps other types.

 

In fact this morning I was reading about very promising new research (The Guardian) on vaccines that bolster T cells (one of the key components of our immune system), rather than the antibody approach.

 

Another thing we really should be grateful for is that depsite covid being extremely infectious/contagious it has a comparatively low mortality rate (for most groups). Imagine what the scenario would have been like if covid had the mortality rate of the plague!

 

[Scott]

There is specific criteria for what constitutes a pandemic and what constitutes an end to it.   There is also a social component, where people more or less just get tired of it and start going about life ignoring it.  That is not a medical end, but a social end.  

 

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

You'll have to put up a link proving this.  Otherwise, more misinformation.

 

As you say, these are life saving vaccines, and I am fully vaccinated and grateful for that.

 

However, you appear to claim that they eliminate the virus and unfortunately this is not so.

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

There's just a tiny problem with your generalization. It's called smallpox. Thanks to vaccinations, smallpox has been eliminated. It's now extinct.

 

 

 

Yes, it is a generalization, however an exception does not make  the rule.  Yes it is a tiny exception.  And clearly covid19 is not an exception is it?

 

I'm sure the covid vaccines will help in stunting the spread of the virus.  And as we will all become infected sooner or later our immune systems will also gain much needed natural immunity, which will ultimately be the decisive factor.  

 

The vaccines are very, very good at preventing the awful over-reaction of the immune system that leads to serious illness and death.  Over time my best guess is that covid19 will be endemic but no more serious than any other coronavirus, though this may take years to happen.

 

 

[ozimoron]

23 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Over time my best guess is that covid19 will be endemic but no more serious than any other coronavirus, though this may take years to happen.

This claim unsubstantiated speculation designed to convey vaccine reluctance. There is no basis for you to suggest that covid-19 will become any less dangerous than it is now.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

This claim unsubstantiated speculation designed to convey vaccine reluctance. There is no basis for you to suggest that covid-19 will become any less dangerous than it is now.

Your arguments are anything but balanced or indeed cogent, both in detail and general stance...

 

As a reasonable person and somebody who is pro-vaccination- I have had 2 shots of Pfizer and will certainly have a booster if available in Thailand- I can honestly say that it does no good to counter anti-vaxxers by stating things that are clearly not true, or presenting equally extreme arguments.

 

I used the phrase 'my best guess', so of course this part is my speculation, and it's a view held by many others too, since this is what generally happens with respiratory viruses over time, and appears to be happening in real life in the UK.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

As you say, these are life saving vaccines, and I am fully vaccinated and grateful for that.

 

However, you appear to claim that they eliminate the virus and unfortunately this is not so.

 

Never said they completely eliminate the virus.  I'm well aware of their effectiveness.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

Yes, it is a generalization, however an exception does not make  the rule.  Yes it is a tiny exception.  And clearly covid19 is not an exception is it?

 

I'm sure the covid vaccines will help in stunting the spread of the virus.  And as we will all become infected sooner or later our immune systems will also gain much needed natural immunity, which will ultimately be the decisive factor.  

 

The vaccines are very, very good at preventing the awful over-reaction of the immune system that leads to serious illness and death.  Over time my best guess is that covid19 will be endemic but no more serious than any other coronavirus, though this may take years to happen.

 

 

Well, there's also the polio and measles vaccines. Both are clearly capable of eliminating their targets. Vaccination refusal for one reason or another being what stands in the way.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Never said they completely eliminate the virus.  I'm well aware of their effectiveness.

Yes, you said they 'work', which is absolutely correct.

 

However, this latest argument was about the word 'eliminate', so unwittingly or otherwise you subtly changed the subject.  And now you are doing it again by introducing adverbs/adjectives to qualify 'eliminate'.

 

The vaccines do not eliminate the virus, and it is false to suggest they do imo, as it may lead people to transmit the virus in the mistaken belief that they can not do so- they can, they definitely can!  If it were not so, there would be no need to test fully vaccinated people.

 

It would be right to say they do partially reduce the rate of transmission- this is proven from studies.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, you said they 'work', which is absolutely correct.

 

However, this latest argument was about the word 'eliminate', so unwittingly or otherwise you subtly changed the subject.  And now you are doing it again by introducing adverbs/adjectives to qualify 'eliminate'.

 

The vaccines do not eliminate the virus, and it is false to suggest they do imo, as it may lead people to transmit the virus in the mistaken belief that they can not do so- they can, they definitely can!  If it were not so, there would be no need to test fully vaccinated people.

 

It would be right to say they do partially reduce the rate of transmission- this is proven from studies.

Again, you are irresponsibly suggesting that they don't work to eliminate the virus. You have no basis for that claim. The vaccine may well be effective enough to eliminate the virus given enough vaccinations. You are unable and unwilling to substantiate your claim that they won't and that is misinformation.